Roccandil

Update resource gathering to allow new players to be more useful

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Currently new players are almost useless, except for digging dirt (simply because for most use-cases for dirt, QL doesn't matter). Gathering raw materials for the village/civilization, however, seems as if it ought to be a fitting task for new players. 

 

As such, I'd consider detaching mining/woodcutting/digging gather-QL from skill (and skillgain).

 

This would mean, for instance, that a new player could go mine a 90QL vein and get 90QL ore (just a lot more slowly than a vet). Not only is that something useful a newbie can do immediately, but it's logical, too. Ore is ore.

 

Mining is the easy one since all veins have a unique QL already. For woodcutting, I'd consider assigning QL based on age. For digging, I'd consider giving at least each resource tile its own QL. (If, however, it's troublesome to give every dirt-based tile a unique QL, dirt could just be a static QL of some level, high enough so coalmaking doesn't get hurt, and low enough that rare shovels are still interesting.)

 

I know many subsystems would be affected, but I think, long-term, this is worth pursuing.

 

 

Edited by Roccandil

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This would, in turn, make very high resource-gathering skills... not very useful at all.

 

After all, how much 95QL iron or logs do you really need?

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45 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

This would, in turn, make very high resource-gathering skills... not very useful at all.

 

After all, how much 95QL iron or logs do you really need?

 

I'd rather optimize for new players being useful than high resource-gathering skills being useful.

 

Nevertheless, I see no reason why those skills couldn't be made more desirable in other ways, and they already are to an extent, since the mining/digging skills largely determine your terraforming ability.

 

Woodcutting is left out in the cold a bit, in comparison (I suppose its advantage is the double chance at strength gains per action).

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-1

 

A new player doesn't need 95 ql iron to play the game.  Nor do they need 95 ql iron to make money for prem.

 

All of the gathering skills are still highly useful for new players.

 

Mining-  Mine rock, mine slate, mine sandstone, mine marble.  There are now THREE different types of veins that new players can mine, make bricks out of and sell for prem.  

 

Digging-  There is more to digging than just dirt.  Dig sand to make mortar, dig clay to make pottery, mortar, build houses with.  Clay is in high demand for smart players doing their personal goals.

 

Woodcutting-  With all the uses for low QL logs, you are very quick to dismiss them to illustrate your false claim.  If you don't want your low QL logs, bring them to me, I will happily take them.

Edited by Wargasm

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I suggested something similar to this last year:

Didn't gain any traction then, and doubt it will now.

 

All the same, big +1 from me because skill-pegged quality caps on harvested resources are just plain silly and truly were off-putting in my early game Wurm experience.

 

Skill should, if anything, affect the distribution of high vs low quality of harvested mats – not put a hard cap on quality.

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3 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Currently new players are almost useless,

 

maybe we should just start all new players out at 70 in all skills

 

no longer useless, people rejoice

 

wu ----->

 

 

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-1 And for the record, I don't think any new player is ever useless.

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1 minute ago, Cecci said:

-1 And for the record, I don't think any new player is ever useless.

 

this suggestion sure is useless though

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1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

-1

 

A new player doesn't need 95 ql iron to play the game.  Nor do they need 95 ql iron to make money for prem.

 

So what? :P The option would be cool -and- make sense. Ore is ore. The idea that somehow the piece a newbie breaks out of a 95QL vein magically drops to 1QL is really silly.

 

1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

All of the gathering skills are still highly useful for new players.

 

Mining-  Mine rock, mine slate, mine sandstone, mine marble.  There are now THREE different types of veins that new players can mine, make bricks out of and sell for prem.  

 

Oddly, low QL bricks seem good for high QL house walls, but not fences. I want high QL resources for fences.

 

1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

 

Digging-  There is more to digging than just dirt.  Dig sand to make mortar, dig clay to make pottery, mortar, build houses with.  Clay is in high demand for smart players doing their personal goals.

 

Again, it makes no sense that the spadeful of sand a newbie digs is somehow far poorer sand than the spadeful I dig from the same tile. It -does- make sense that I would be faster.

 

1 hour ago, Wargasm said:

 

Woodcutting-  With all the uses for low QL logs, you are very quick to dismiss them to illustrate your false claim.  If you don't want your low QL logs, bring them to me, I will happily take them.

 

Sure, low QL can be useful for support beams and coal piles and no doubt other things, but the higher the QL, the wider the applications.

 

In short, removing the skill QL limit would make it easier for new players to be useful, and be more immersive.

 

18 minutes ago, Cecci said:

-1 And for the record, I don't think any new player is ever useless.

 

But what does a new player think? I'm speaking from the perspective of a newbie who wants to be helpful, but can't actually do much (which I've encountered).

 

It's a good thing to encourage new players to feel useful from the beginning.

 

28 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

maybe we should just start all new players out at 70 in all skills

 

Giving new premium players a certain number of levels to allocate would be an interesting possibility.

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All the gathering skills would be good for now is speed? That's a pretty weak and shallow benefit, unless the speed discrepancy is really outrageous, which just has new players sit on even longer timers.

 

But say we massively nerfed gathering skills as you propose, wouldn't a new player producing less suitable materials (Because even without the skill cap, there's no way someone with 1WC will produce 100QL logs as consistently as someone with +90WC) with significantly longer timers still make them seem absolutely inadequate to veterans? I feel like the whole underlying idea here that new players should somehow be able to contribute to high end content is just severly misguided.

It is, in fact, what a progression system ought to prevent.

 

Surely there must be other ways for you to involve recruits meaningfully into tasks on your deed. I'm not even gonna get into the old question "What can new players sell to the market."

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

o what? :P The option would be cool -and- make sense.

 

You need to give us a little bit more reason to support a change other than "cuz it would be cool".  And the primary reason for my response is because I do not see how this makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

Ore is ore.

 

Ribbons, nails, creation of tools, weapons, bulk metal for grinding metallurgy, locksmithing, making dye.  As a 99 blacksmith, ask any of my friends that know me which one of the QL bins in my shop is *always* empty of iron lumps.  Anyone?  The under 30 ql bin, because creation consumes ALOT of iron.

 

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

The idea that somehow the piece a newbie breaks out of a 95QL vein magically drops to 1QL is really silly.

 

Explain to me what a new player needs 95 ql ore for.  Can't use it to make 95 ql steel, can't use it to make 95 ql tools because no blacksmithing.  Can't use it to make 95 ql anything because a new player has little to no skill in anything.

 

It sounds to me like you want to be able to use a non-prem alt to gather high QL resources and hide behind a "lets help the newbies" banner.

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4 hours ago, Flubb said:

All the gathering skills would be good for now is speed? That's a pretty weak and shallow benefit, unless the speed discrepancy is really outrageous, which just has new players sit on even longer timers.

 

Terraforming is already dependent on mining/digging skill. That's a pretty big deal.

 

4 hours ago, Flubb said:

But say we massively nerfed gathering skills as you propose, wouldn't a new player producing less suitable materials (Because even without the skill cap, there's no way someone with 1WC will produce 100QL logs as consistently as someone with +90WC) with significantly longer timers still make them seem absolutely inadequate to veterans? I feel like the whole underlying idea here that new players should somehow be able to contribute to high end content is just severly misguided.

It is, in fact, what a progression system ought to prevent.

 

I'd just like to be able to tell a new player asking how they can help the village, "go chop some wood, or mine some ore, or dig some clay", and have the QL of what they get make sense.

 

4 hours ago, Wargasm said:

You need to give us a little bit more reason to support a change other than "cuz it would be cool".  And the primary reason for my response is because I do not see how this makes sense.

 

See above.

 

4 hours ago, Wargasm said:

Ribbons, nails, creation of tools, weapons, bulk metal for grinding metallurgy, locksmithing, making dye.  As a 99 blacksmith, ask any of my friends that know me which one of the QL bins in my shop is *always* empty of iron lumps.  Anyone?  The under 30 ql bin, because creation consumes ALOT of iron.

 

I also am a 99 (effective) blacksmith, but maybe Epic is a bit different, because I don't use -that- much under 30QL. For instance, I've noticed that mid-level QL ribbons/nails help a lot with attach success and speed for certain operations, so I tend to use up my 60/70QL iron for that.

 

4 hours ago, Wargasm said:

Explain to me what a new player needs 95 ql ore for.  Can't use it to make 95 ql steel, can't use it to make 95 ql tools because no blacksmithing.  Can't use it to make 95 ql anything because a new player has little to no skill in anything.

 

As I said, this about a new player being/feeling useful to a village. Gathering raw materials is a reasonable task for unskilled labor, whereas refining them into finished products is the realm of skilled artisans.

 

Wurm is (theoretically) about people working together, so a very basic, obvious model is to allow newbies to gather raw materials for their village, so the master crafters can use them.

 

The fact that Wurm discourages this I find mind-boggling, to be honest. Not only is it counter-immersive, its practical effect is to severely limit how helpful a new player can be and feel, which is not a good thing.

 

4 hours ago, Wargasm said:

 

It sounds to me like you want to be able to use a non-prem alt to gather high QL resources and hide behind a "lets help the newbies" banner.

 

I have 6 permanent prem toons, would prem more if I needed them, and I can gather 100QL anything. I don't need this suggestion for me. :P

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Random results would still mean new players could not help much, given their results would be wildly all over the place, and to get anything useful at high quality it would still be a 1/50 actions paying off, meaning it gives less sense of progression and requires more time and failure to receive anything that this suggestion would be aiming at adding. 

 

Low skill accounts cannot provide for high skill accounts in a bulk sense, even if your suggestion was based on the ability to refine bulk materials into smaller quantities of higher materials it would still be something a new player could not do. 

 

On a whole village scale, there's always plenty of work that is not quality dependant, dirt required for things, logs required for planks and housing, rock shards for bricks and general mine improvements. 

 

This is not discouraging working together, and it IS immersive, new players being able to keep up with high skilled veteran players is counter intuitive, and discourages actually raising skills and coordinating, as anyone can produce anything decent. 

 

If you wind up spending enough time ingame that you become a master of all crafts, you'll want for little, but if you play and cooperate with a village, and especially starting out, you tend to specialise in what you enjoy, my first days were aimed around mining, digging and woodcutting, I enjoyed providing resources for my friends who were working on carpentry and blacksmithing, we all started at low skills and thus could provide for oine another, I provided raw mats, they provided housing and tools.

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Huge -1, it's bad enough that some skills still give very random results like butchering for example. It's ridiculous how much 100ql products I get with 50 skill. You need to grind skill to get good results, simple as that, basic premise. It's not very hard for newbie to pick a gathering skill, grind to 70 for start and become competitive in bulk market as well. Grind some mining, some stone cutting and with some time bum, you're competitive brick maker on one of most demanding markets in wurm, there is bigger need for low ql logs rather than for high ql ones, player might need just one crate of 90+ql logs but could need thousands of 10ish ql logs, for grinding hfc ql of veggies is not important, and with some land and small everyday dedication you can easy become 90 skill farmer. Hell I was running around collecting sprouts everyday unpremmed for my first couple of silvers for deed. It would be pointless to be jack of all trades the moment you start the game and quite the insult for people who dedicated 10 years to this game...

There is already plenty of ways for new players to make starting money in the game. It's much easier than when I was starting for sure

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-1, If we want everyone to be completely equal, we should just limit the QL of everything in game to 20.  Why does anything need to be above 20 QL anyways?

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It is a grinding game like few others. And shockingly enough, I like that about it. So -1

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Gonna throw another -1 into the ring. 

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I sold 9k of 32ql iron lumps to someone after grinding on my first iron vein removal in my deed mine when I was pretty new.  Made 9s.

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I enjoyed trading 20ql bricks for things I needed my first year. I see no reason why new players can't add value within the first few hours of grinding. 

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10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Random results would still mean new players could not help much, given their results would be wildly all over the place, and to get anything useful at high quality it would still be a 1/50 actions paying off, meaning it gives less sense of progression and requires more time and failure to receive anything that this suggestion would be aiming at adding. 

 

Low skill accounts cannot provide for high skill accounts in a bulk sense, even if your suggestion was based on the ability to refine bulk materials into smaller quantities of higher materials it would still be something a new player could not do. 

 

Wild random outcomes is another bad thing about Wurm. I'd fix that, too.

 

10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

On a whole village scale, there's always plenty of work that is not quality dependant, dirt required for things, logs required for planks and housing, rock shards for bricks and general mine improvements. 

 

This is not discouraging working together, and it IS immersive, new players being able to keep up with high skilled veteran players is counter intuitive, and discourages actually raising skills and coordinating, as anyone can produce anything decent. 

 

No one's suggesting that newbies should be able to finish goods as if they were artisans. This is simply about raw materials.

 

10 hours ago, Retrograde said:

 

If you wind up spending enough time ingame that you become a master of all crafts, you'll want for little, but if you play and cooperate with a village, and especially starting out, you tend to specialise in what you enjoy, my first days were aimed around mining, digging and woodcutting, I enjoyed providing resources for my friends who were working on carpentry and blacksmithing, we all started at low skills and thus could provide for oine another, I provided raw mats, they provided housing and tools.

 

Everyone being low-skilled is a fairly unique scenario now, I'd think.

 

Bottom line:

 

Gathering raw materials is historically/realistically a task for unskilled labourers. Again, I find it mind-boggling that you all are fighting that so hard! Seriously: ore is ore, wood is wood, clay is clay. A newbie digging up 1QL clay when I get 90QL is counter-immersive, and just plain wrong. :P

 

I feel like you all have been playing Wurm so long, that your definition of normal has been overwritten. :P

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32 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Bottom line:

 

Gathering raw materials is historically/realistically a task for unskilled labourers. Again, I find it mind-boggling that you all are fighting that so hard! Seriously: ore is ore, wood is wood, clay is clay. A newbie digging up 1QL clay when I get 90QL is counter-immersive, and just plain wrong. :P

 

I feel like you all have been playing Wurm so long, that your definition of normal has been overwritten. :P

 

Bit of an arrogant thing to say that we're all wrong because we've played Wurm too long. I'd say the opposite is true.

 

The idea just doesn't make sense.

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34 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I feel like you all have been playing Wurm so long, that your definition of normal has been overwritten. :P

 

Oh great, you're back at lashing out at everybody...

 

'Normal' in which context? The quality of stuff you can produce being tied to your skill and other enhancements is normal in Wurm, it's a core principle of it. Even when i was new I recognized and accepted it, that's infact what makes the progression system engaging. And gathering is part of that, and not a small part either.

 

40 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

historically/realistically

Historically and realistically this is the most cherrypicked and frankly useless criterium for game design ever and doesn't support your case made in a game's suggestion forum at all.

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Wurm currently has a delicate balance.

 

While many want to focus on bringing in new players, retaining those players, and changing the game to make it more entry level appealing there are many more on the inverse, often looking out for their own interests, wanting to keep things the same.

 

However there is a simple reality, if you change things that the current population disagrees with for new players, you will lose the old players.

If you do not make anything to bring in new players, they will not come.

 

Unfortunately I am not sure if wurm can strike that balance between old and new, I truly think if things like this should have been done a long time ago. We are at the point of no return, looking into the void. But how long before the void looks back?

 

I will personally -1 this change, I think wurm should continue on its consistent trajectory downwards, focusing on retention efforts while not rocking the boat one way or the others.

 

Personally my suggestion is to start working on quality of life updates and bug fixes as they have been, and graphical updates.

 

Professionally my suggestion is to keep the game on life support as long as possible not working to move too much in one way, string pvpers along with small updates with the promise of more, keep freedom players entertained with additional content for them, and lower the cost of silver to be comparable to player prices of 1e-1s to squeeze out additional income for the company. After the count continues to drop, maybe put out a new big server or pvp update to rake in the last bit of cash possible. 

 

Also if you haven't already, start lowering the coin gained from traders on both buy backs of money sinks and general manipulation for cash. Make getting "investment silver" harder quietly.

 

Note: I am not being sarcastic this should be the legitimate plan.

Edited by FranktheTank

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