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Prophetears

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A small idea was proposed, to prove a point.

 

We would copy our deed from WO onto WU.

 

We would let teams of 20-30 attempt a raid with a 5-8 hour time limit. Only five of us would defend.

 

The first team to drain and breach one of the token safemines, we would reward them with several scale sets in WO

 

 

Is there any interest in this? If there is significant interest, we will have a talk about it and if everything goes well we will continue.

Edited by Prophetears

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What point might that be?  Your endless argument that deeds are too hard to raid (or take too long)?  Seems to be working for you on Chaos as is.

 

Like all things PvP, some people know how to do things more proficiently than others.  That doesn't mean the game needs to be further manipulated to serve what few know how to abuse it.

 

On a more serious note, I don't think there are still 30 people not in your kingdom that still care that much about PvP to spend 8 hours raiding a fake deed.

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Are you saying bugs shouldn't be fixed because they protect your deed? 

 

That's exploiting. 

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I know how long it would take and really am not sure if I can take the time off work. ?

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I think the effort is worth the reward of "several scale sets"

 

I mean, 3 scale sets net a value of at a minimun 660e at current prices. 660e is more than a biweekly salary of the average population in many first world countries. And thats assuming several can be defined as 3 or more. If I wasnt a crusader, I'd try. Unless it cant be done, which means it proves a point. 

 

To be fair, if you cant raid a deed in 8 hours with 20+ people and only 5 defending, then there is a problem with the mechanics. Either way, that's a test I'd like to see.

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11 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

To be fair, if you cant raid a deed in 8 hours with 20+ people and only 5 defending, then there is a problem with the mechanics.

 

Or your philosophy... ;)

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8 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Or your philosophy... ;)

 

not many people can put in much longer than that my dude.

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

To be fair, if you cant raid a deed in 8 hours with 20+ people and only 5 defending, then there is a problem with the mechanics.

 

Now the problem here with this statement is..  on paper it might look like oh damn you cant raid a deed with 4x the numbers within 8 hours thats bad, but in reality what definition of raid are we talking about?  Should people have the power to drain and loot everything within 8 hours?  Even just drain and one safemine?  8 hours sounds like a long time, but how long collectively did it take to make the parts of the deed that get smashed, how long did it take to make everything that was looted in the safe mine?  Is 8 hours an ideal time to be able to undo a collective amount of potentially hundreds or even thousands of hours?

 

This is why I'm ok with mines being hard to break into as sort of a balance.  More likely to see people staying when they keep their crap and are able to rebuild and still fight and play.  More likely to see people leaving the server/game when they cannot

Edited by MrGARY
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Uhm that are what castles are meant for, so the small number of defenders can repel much larger force. There are historical examples of much bigger raids repelled by very small number of defenders, much common way of conquering castle is due too starvation or surrender or even betrayal rather than with breach

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5 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

Now the problem here with this statement is..  on paper it might look like oh damn you cant raid a deed with 4x the numbers within 8 hours thats bad, but in reality what definition of raid are we talking about?  Should people have the power to drain and loot everything within 8 hours?  Even just drain and one safemine?  8 hours sounds like a long time, but how long collectively did it take to make the parts of the deed that get smashed, how long did it take to make everything that was looted in the safe mine?  Is 8 hours an ideal time to be able to undo a collective amount of potentially hundreds or even thousands of hours?

 

This is why I'm ok with mines being hard to break into as sort of a balance.  More likely to see people staying when they keep their crap and are able to rebuild and still fight and play.  More likely to see people leaving the server/game when they cannot

I agree to a point. What are deeds intended to achieve on a pvp server? Are they intended to prevent raiding? Are deeds supposed to be impeneteable forces where it is impossible to remove? Or are they intended to be challenging?

 

When it takes 20+ players 4 hours to bash s mine door, it makes anyone with less numbers than that unable to raid. It would take a group of 10 people 8hrs to bash, and a group of 5 16 hours. And thats just a single mine door that can possibly lead nowhere. Given at times you need to bash 2 and 3 mine doors, this effectively makes deeds with underground housing unraidable.

 

Now, lets look at the surface situation. It takes easily 4-6 hrs for a team of 16 players to sucessfully raid a lightly defended deed (2-3 guys). In the end, you tap a token and get less than a silver which is split into... 16 ways. Each player gets a grand total of...4 copper? 

 

The problem I see is the current system does not favor raiding. A properly built deed with a token defense is impossible to disband. Unless attackers are dedicated enough to spend the equivallent of full workday shifts on a regular bases during the course of a week, the deed wont fall.

 

But, if the intention is for deeds to be unraidable, then why give us siege engines such as catapults, tebuchets and battering rams? I believe that we need to identify what the purpose or intention behind the raiding mechanics is, and what does CCAB wants to do with it.

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7 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I believe that we need to identify what the purpose or intention behind the raiding mechanics is, and what does CCAB wants to do with it.

 

Hence the philosophy question.

 

I almost feel like there should be two kinds of PMK deeds: capitals and outposts. Capitals should be impossible to raid, while outposts should be (relatively) easy to raid.

 

Capitals would be limited to one per kingdom, of course, while a kingdom could have as many outposts as it wanted.

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16 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

To be fair, if you cant raid a deed in 8 hours with 20+ people and only 5 defending, then there is a problem with the mechanics. Either way, that's a test I'd like to see.

 

 

I'm not recommending anything, just saying your arbitrary 8-hour rule is pure speculative opinion and preference. 

 

In EvE raiders need to spend much more time than 8 hours to effectively raid a 'castle' with the intent to 'loot what they can'.

I've spent months planning a 'raid' and taken time off from work over a long weekend to participate. 

 

This is because [historically] most [meta] raids tend to turn into bash it, pillage it, snuff anyone who shows up and leave before the defenders even have a chance to log in. 

Fighting often happened during timezones where other players are known to be less active, etc. 

 

Result? Sieging a structure takes 3 days minimum. 3 different timers allow defending players to log in. 

 

Who really wants all their assets stolen when they are completely unable to defend it? 

 

 

Edited by Trake

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8 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

But, if the intention is for deeds to be unraidable, then why give us siege engines such as catapults, tebuchets and battering rams? I believe that we need to identify what the purpose or intention behind the raiding mechanics is, and what does CCAB wants to do with it.

 

This still is going off an unknown meaning for the word raid.  Lets take CG on ele for example, it wasn't designed to be unraidable, it was designed to be user friendly for the 99/100 times it isn't being raided and the 1/100 times it is it relies on defenders.  Lets say the deed is still there and you want to raid it, and theres no defenders, maybe it will take you 30m to get past the dirt wall maybe less does this count as raided?  Then you ram a straight line to token and drain right away, does this count as raided?   Now you ram/cata/treb into all of the 80+ houses there, does it count as raided at the first house, tenth, 20th, 50th, all?  Then you get dollar signs in your eyes and break into my safemine, does that count as raided?  Then lastly you break into all the other safe mines scattered around the deed as well as the boat mine.  At what point can you say you have raided?  Is it raidable because you drained the token surely within a couple hours, or is a deed with an open token on flat ground unraidable because looting every house and mine would take days/weeks without defenders?  I think breaking in to drain is fine.  I think the need to disband war deeds is fine.  I think the ability to loot a deed from top to bottom taking everything not nailed and nailed down and every horse and grief is harmful to the game.  Its a hard line to draw as the fine and the not fine both affect each other greatly, as making it easier for simple raiding will make it easier for toxic raiding, and making it harder for toxic raiding will make it harder for simple raiding.  This is why I lean on the side of the line that makes normal raiding suffer because its simply just healthier for the game and the only downside is that big bad boy chad has a hard time getting his 50th longsword

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Raiding a deed should be hard to do.  PvP shouldn't be hard to do.  Make it a pain in the arss to raid a deed.  You are raiding homes and hundreds of hours of work.  Why let you bash into my deed in a short time if it takes 100 hours to try to secure it.  TC doesn't have an issue bashing through deeds.  They seem pretty efficient at.

 

I like the long term planning and time it takes to raid.  It's satisfying like an old school board game.

 

The real problem is there isn't enough population in this game (pvp) to have good raids.  That's all there is to it.  Nothing to fix or change, but more people on at the same time in certain time zones.  PvP seems more active in Europe than in North American time zones making it pretty dull for us since I'm sleeping when population is up to where I haven't been on Chaos for about a month.  No matter what is changed or updated in this game there will still be no one to play with for now.

 

It's cool that there are priest changes coming and others, but who you going to fight against?  The same 10-15 accounts you always fighting against?

 

The worst part is if population does start climbing in Wurm PvP it will take the noobs multiple years to even be worth PvPing against......meaning you still fighting the same 15 accounts that are passed around like hookers from different ownership of people.  That's pretty much Wurm PvP right there.  Pick the top 10 accounts and there's your set of toons that matter in the game.

 

Of course people will say "It doesn't take long to get pvp ready and your just lazy.  Just spend 500 hours grinding on boring horses and you'll still have crap body from no crafting."  I bet all the new people know exactly how to skill up quickly for pvp too.  This game is so easy to learn.  So easy to just jump into Chaos and start PvPing.  Happens all the time right?

 

Only thing I see is closing Chaos and having Epic for PvP to get people into it quickly....but so far Wurm Online doesn't run with that idea probably because it makes the most sense.  Wasn't that the point of Epic in the first place?  Get people into the game and mostly PvP faster?

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2 hours ago, Trake said:

In EvE raiders need to spend much more time than 8 hours to effectively raid a 'castle' with the intent to 'loot what they can'.

This is false. With a large enough force you can put even a Keepstar into reinforcement in a low enough amount of time. After reinforcing it, your fleet leaves and comes back when the timer is over (This is not an option in Wurm, hence its a poor comparison). Nowhere near close to 8 hrs, unless its properly defended, which is my point. A deed that is not properly defended can take easily more than 8 hrs to breach into, and I mean a lopsided 20+ vs 5 defenders. That'd be the equivallent of having a token defense of maybe one fleet of 100 people defend a Keepstar from a Goon Fleet of 1,200. Its ridiculous.

 

I am not saying deeds should be easy to raid. On the contrary, I believe that it should be difficult, time consuming, and it should provide a benefit to the defenders, who are being raided on their home turf. The issue becomes how difficult? Are you expected to force 20+ people on an ongoing event for 20 hours straight actively raiding in order to get a 70 copper drain because the defenders can keep 5 dudes online?

 

Thats what I am trying to bring up. When the raiding gets to the point that an overwhelming force cannot overcome the defenses of a meagerly defended outpost (not even a capital), it effectively becomes unraidable, as you cannot expect people to throw their lives away to a videogame. 8hrs alone is quite a long time after all.

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test post, please ignore

Edited by Trake

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2 hours ago, MrGARY said:

 

This still is going off an unknown meaning for the word raid.  Lets take CG on ele for example, it wasn't designed to be unraidable, it was designed to be user friendly for the 99/100 times it isn't being raided and the 1/100 times it is it relies on defenders.  Lets say the deed is still there and you want to raid it, and theres no defenders, maybe it will take you 30m to get past the dirt wall maybe less does this count as raided?  Then you ram a straight line to token and drain right away, does this count as raided?   Now you ram/cata/treb into all of the 80+ houses there, does it count as raided at the first house, tenth, 20th, 50th, all?  Then you get dollar signs in your eyes and break into my safemine, does that count as raided?  Then lastly you break into all the other safe mines scattered around the deed as well as the boat mine.  At what point can you say you have raided?  Is it raidable because you drained the token surely within a couple hours, or is a deed with an open token on flat ground unraidable because looting every house and mine would take days/weeks without defenders?  I think breaking in to drain is fine.  I think the need to disband war deeds is fine.  I think the ability to loot a deed from top to bottom taking everything not nailed and nailed down and every horse and grief is harmful to the game.  Its a hard line to draw as the fine and the not fine both affect each other greatly, as making it easier for simple raiding will make it easier for toxic raiding, and making it harder for toxic raiding will make it harder for simple raiding.  This is why I lean on the side of the line that makes normal raiding suffer because its simply just healthier for the game and the only downside is that big bad boy chad has a hard time getting his 50th longsword

Taking away the monetary value of a raid, which we can all agree is minimal given how easy it is to save your assets (raids arent always done for money), I would take the meaning of raiding to be when the place does no longer provide a safe haven for its inhabitants. With current mechanics, this is impossible to achieve. 

 

I can imp a 20ql steel mine door to 85 in less than 5 minutes. Once the attackers leave, I replace bashed mine doors and done. I'm back in business. From there I can repair the deed.

 

Deed drained? I just keep putting money into it. 

 

Personally I believe that deeds should fall after a certain consecutive days of token drains, instead of going on forever, depending on how big the wallet of the deed holder is.

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5 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

This is false. With a large enough force you can put even a Keepstar into reinforcement in a low enough amount of time. After reinforcing it, your fleet leaves and comes back when the timer is over (This is not an option in Wurm, hence its a poor comparison). Nowhere near close to 8 hrs, unless its properly defended, which is my point. A deed that is not properly defended can take easily more than 8 hrs to breach into, and I mean a lopsided 20+ vs 5 defenders. That'd be the equivallent of having a token defense of maybe one fleet of 100 people defend a Keepstar from a Goon Fleet of 1,200. Its ridiculous.

 

I am not saying deeds should be easy to raid. On the contrary, I believe that it should be difficult, time consuming, and it should provide a benefit to the defenders, who are being raided on their home turf. The issue becomes how difficult? Are you expected to force 20+ people on an ongoing event for 20 hours straight actively raiding in order to get a 70 copper drain because the defenders can keep 5 dudes online?

 

Thats what I am trying to bring up. When the raiding gets to the point that an overwhelming force cannot overcome the defenses of a meagerly defended outpost (not even a capital), it effectively becomes unraidable, as you cannot expect people to throw their lives away to a videogame. 8hrs alone is quite a long time after all.

11

 

 

Agreed, it's a weak comparison but frankly, its the only game in existence (that I know of) which compares evenly to Wurm PvP when you look at the correct facets. 

 

+ Full Loot Drop

+ Full Base Loot Drop

+ Time-based Skill Level formulas for Combat

+ Strategy / Meta experience necessity

+ TimeZone issues with PvP 

+ # of Players active in a fight matter

 

Let's compare apples to apples more than bring up Ti-Di wars which I've avoided since implementation.

 

Your scenario is irrelevant because of Asset Safety. Anyone who failed to defend their home has all of their 'safe' belongings 'magically teleported' to another station and system. 

Wurm has no asset safety other than the 'mine vaults'. 

 

I'm assuming you don't have much wormhole experience?

Evictions (aka, Raids) require that you have hole-control 24/7 during the operation, so no, all of your members can't dock up, log off and wait for new timers, they have to actively scout and combat anything trying to get in or out of the system. In wormholes, when you kick the sandcastle over, all the loot drops... so this would be the scenario to compare. 

 

 

I was there for the first and only Keepstar kill in Wspace. It took months to plan and over a week to execute. You can't just drop 99 supers and sit in TiDi for hours, log off and wait for more pings.

It requires you to actively maintain control of the Op without allowing your enemy to reinforce with fleets. 

You actually have to spend 3 entire days killing the structure and scouting the system. 
 

That being said, if most/all deeds could be raided and looted in less than 8 hours, how many people do you think would still PvP after the majority of their assets were stolen by a consolidation of power in the first few months? 

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50 minutes ago, Trake said:

 

 

Agreed, it's a weak comparison but frankly, its the only game in existence (that I know of) which compares evenly to Wurm PvP when you look at the correct facets. 

 

+ Full Loot Drop

+ Full Base Loot Drop

+ Time-based Skill Level formulas for Combat

+ Strategy / Meta experience necessity

+ TimeZone issues with PvP 

+ # of Players active in a fight matter

 

Let's compare apples to apples more than bring up Ti-Di wars which I've avoided since implementation.

 

Your scenario is irrelevant because of Asset Safety. Anyone who failed to defend their home has all of their 'safe' belongings 'magically teleported' to another station and system. 

Wurm has no asset safety other than the 'mine vaults'. 

 

I'm assuming you don't have much wormhole experience?

Evictions (aka, Raids) require that you have hole-control 24/7 during the operation, so no, all of your members can't dock up, log off and wait for new timers, they have to actively scout and combat anything trying to get in or out of the system. In wormholes, when you kick the sandcastle over, all the loot drops... so this would be the scenario to compare. 

 

 

I was there for the first and only Keepstar kill in Wspace. It took months to plan and over a week to execute. You can't just drop 99 supers and sit in TiDi for hours, log off and wait for more pings.

It requires you to actively maintain control of the Op without allowing your enemy to reinforce with fleets. 

You actually have to spend 3 entire days killing the structure and scouting the system. 
 

That being said, if most/all deeds could be raided and looted in less than 8 hours, how many people do you think would still PvP after the majority of their assets were stolen by a consolidation of power in the first few months? 

 

The problem is everyone quickly assumes loot is the only motivation behind a raid. In fact, loot is practically insignificant during raids, as very few people store their valuable belongings on a chest on Chaos. Everything goes into Merchants/Alts.

 

Case in point:

uCaysHY.jpg

 

The problem with the current raiding system and the main reason raiding is necesary, is territorial control. A group trying to contest a territory can be stopped by a simple deed: The enemy shows up in opposing pmk territory, caps 3 towers (takes maybe 2 hours) and drops a deed. That deed effectively becomes a safe haven for an opposing kingdom within the territory of their enemies, with no feasible way to stop them. 

 

TC members as a pmk on epic has sucessfully defended a fully built deed (Rome) where the enemy was already inside the walls at the moment anyone logged in with less than half the numbers from the attackers, pushed them off the deed, and secured it.

 

BLE dropped a deed inside Rome territory, made a mine door, and sucessfully defended it several times with no walls and 0 defenses with less numbers than the attackers: Only using mine hops.

 

Then there is Fallujah. I'm not even going to go there.

 

Territorial control is the intended goal of the game of Chaos. Kingdoms battle kingdoms in order to control resources (Hota?) or land. If this cannot be done due to unraidable deeds, then whats the point of Chaos?

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

Territorial control is the intended goal of the game of Chaos. Kingdoms battle kingdoms in order to control resources (Hota?) or land. If this cannot be done due to unraidable deeds, then whats the point of Chaos?

 

Hence my suggestion of two deed types: unraidable (limited to 1 per PMK) and raidable (limited only by territory). The idea is to allow territorial conquest wars, while at the same not allowing scorched-earth griefing of capitals.

 

Obviously, more details would be needed, but at this point, I see it as a philosophy question.

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

 

The problem is everyone quickly assumes loot is the only motivation behind a raid. In fact, loot is practically insignificant during raids.......

 

+1   It's all about the rush you get when competing and satisfaction or depression that comes after a fight.  About getting that gear to drop from a kill, not a raid.  Working with others for an end goal and getting hyped with others on discord.

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From what I can see the problem is too many freedom minded people have come to live on chaos. They have the mindset that because they spent so much time on their deeds that they are entitled to be protected. The reality is chaos was never intended to be this way. Anything you build, create or conquer can be destroyed or captured at any time. It's your job to defend it. If you can't defend it, you deserve to lose it. That's how it works. There's no comfort zones on this server. I loved the thrill of logging in to find out my or an ally's deed is being raided, I really did. That's what it's always been about, that adrenaline rush. I can't stand to see a bunch of newer generation players try to change that because they want to live in peace on their capitol and not be bothered. It's like a bunch of people moving to a new country and telling them how to live.

Edited by Madt

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