The State of Raiding

[whereami 564]

I have a couple questions though involving this mechanic that you so suddenly attribute to a bug or akin to an exploit.

 

What about mine trapping? TBH its the dumbest thing in the world IMO, to be able to wall off a mine on the surface tile-border of the mine and trap players inside it with no way to bash the wall off.
This does by nature, work the same in reverse, which is what you're complaining about now. IE if that wall was a door, and instead the opponent defends from the inside. But the above scenario is the reason it was initially implemented in the first place.

 

So, are you just suddenly wanting this to be a thing again? Personally I hated the fact that you could do that at all. It seems silly to me that a wall that is obstructing me, literally CANNOT be bashed unless I am on the same surface layer. This creates some bad scenarios, too.

[Prophetears 244]

4 hours ago, whereami said:

I have a couple questions though involving this mechanic that you so suddenly attribute to a bug or akin to an exploit.

 

What about mine trapping? TBH its the dumbest thing in the world IMO, to be able to wall off a mine on the surface tile-border of the mine and trap players inside it with no way to bash the wall off.
This does by nature, work the same in reverse, which is what you're complaining about now. IE if that wall was a door, and instead the opponent defends from the inside. But the above scenario is the reason it was initially implemented in the first place.

 

So, are you just suddenly wanting this to be a thing again? Personally I hated the fact that you could do that at all. It seems silly to me that a wall that is obstructing me, literally CANNOT be bashed unless I am on the same surface layer. This creates some bad scenarios, too.

 

That was removed, don't really care if its in the game or not.

 

I'm talking about repairing through mines. This was patched out, but, house walls were left out by mistake according to the developer who put it in. Which means its a bug.

 

 

And your post about it being easier to raid is really wrong man, none of the deeds MR touched are like the deeds now, not a single one. Dirtwalls aren't the issue. Buildings aren't the issue. Its dirtwalls and buildings used in conjunction with 100's of mines, and the biggest problem is mines. MR raided very poorly built deeds, I would also know because the ones I redesigned (that are also still out of meta) you guys never touched again. like Kingslayer Harbor, which still had no mines because of the water level. JK Deeds didn't even have token pits man, or I cant remember any having one before we came over full time. I also can't remember you guys raiding anything after we came over full time. (Edit: I even asked in the discords of three existing kingdoms, and not a single person can think of a single instance of MR touching a deed once it was properly built)

 

Many of the ones you raided were just two walls to the token... like waterworks. Sparta was literally built like five years before your kingdom was founded, and used nothing remotely modern in its design. You again, have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Prophetears

[Mclavin 3,704]

Bashing from mines is fine, but why should you get bash bonus for getting trapped? Takes 4 bashes to remove, what a joke, you talk about making things easier, yet you clearly want to keep things easier for when you get walled in lol? 

 

Remove bash bonus if deed alarms go off and push bonus. 

 

Only fair balance. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Mclavin

[icenrns 62]

on  your raid   boys  i only repaired 1 wall from inside the mine i dint know i could but it worked  i did it once then changed to rebuilding walls out side right beside u     my   bad       1 wall only     1 wall only  and  only once 

not 10  not  20        1 wall   only   and  only  once  i know u guys cant  count   so must say it many times      aand the deed i extended it 10   tile north    10   not  1000     10    seee    10 and there was a good reason for   and it worked

[Orlaz 243]

54 minutes ago, icenrns said:

on  your raid   boys  i only repaired 1 wall from inside the mine i dint know i could but it worked  i did it once then changed to rebuilding walls out side right beside u     my   bad       1 wall only     1 wall only  and  only once 

not 10  not  20        1 wall   only   and  only  once  i know u guys cant  count   so must say it many times      aand the deed i extended it 10   tile north    10   not  1000     10    seee    10 and there was a good reason for   and it worked

 

you didnt repair a wall from 47 damage to 0 damage in 1 repair, i cant do that with a 100ql brick on a 100 masonry toon, you knew full well what you where doing.

[Erin 105]

Well tbh, if all small kingdom have deeds they cant defend cause the bigger group come to push them off. The game already costs a lot of money if ppl keep taking drains on the deeds. so making deeds easy to raid that took the small group of players along time to build not rly fair. only ppl that gonna benefit from easy raiding is the stronger group.

 

[Hawkinson 70]

-1

This changes are creat only for one kingdom. Small kingdom be just disband in few-several days by TC, mostly oofline raid.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Hawkinson

[whereami 564]

9 hours ago, Prophetears said:

 

That was removed, don't really care if its in the game or not.

 

I'm talking about repairing through mines. This was patched out, but, house walls were left out by mistake according to the developer who put it in. Which means its a bug.

 

 

And your post about it being easier to raid is really wrong man, none of the deeds MR touched are like the deeds now, not a single one. Dirtwalls aren't the issue. Buildings aren't the issue. Its dirtwalls and buildings used in conjunction with 100's of mines, and the biggest problem is mines. MR raided very poorly built deeds, I would also know because the ones I redesigned (that are also still out of meta) you guys never touched again. like Kingslayer Harbor, which still had no mines because of the water level. JK Deeds didn't even have token pits man, or I cant remember any having one before we came over full time. I also can't remember you guys raiding anything after we came over full time. (Edit: I even asked in the discords of three existing kingdoms, and not a single person can think of a single instance of MR touching a deed once it was properly built)

 

I have personally raided many deeds that are set up very alike to the ones you possess now. In fact, I raided most of the southern deeds you now possess when they were in the hands of Black Legion. Your deed farthest SW from Shroud is set up nearly exactly the same now as it was then, I can show you screenshots, and we raided it several times with no problems. Granted Black Legion were vastly inexperienced, but that has nothing to do with it since you're claiming it's a fault of the mechanics.

 

Quote

You again, have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Also it's pretty clear that this hasn't been thought out nearly at all from the standpoint of a defender. You are constantly moaning and #####ing about there being no one on Chaos. No one plays PvP. It's so broken... But yet you, the same folks, are encouraging changes that will make it so that no one will ever want to play PvP again. You want to make it next to impossible for any potential new kingdoms to start up and become stronger. You want raiding to be piss easy so you can just take every ones stuff. No new players are going to go for this dude. You don't want to fight MR, you want people back to PvP but you don't want MR to come back to PvP. So your only option is enticing new freedomers into it. And these changes are so heavily stacked against them, that you're never going to see any of them migrating toward PvP in our lifetime if these changes get made for you.

 

Still hoping that the devs listening to these bitchfests have more common sense than you.

Edited July 29, 2018 by whereami

[Mclavin 3,704]

Quote

I'm talking about repairing through mines. This was patched out, but, house walls were left out by mistake according to the developer who put it in. Which means its a bug.

 

[Wargasm 1,927]

Raiding philosophy is a big reason why raiding deeds is mostly fine the way it currently is.  

 

30 copper isn't the reason raiders visit enemy deeds.  Loot, kills, territory contesting and griefing (from least to most important in that order) are the reason people raid deeds.  Disbanding a deed allows the capture of towers, forces the enemy to re-cap or bash the tower in order to replace the deed, but like all things PvP it is a numbers game that right now only one kingdom can win.

 

If I were a developer, the last people I would be listening to about why raiding needs to be made easier is the one kingdom that is able to raid pancake any deed at will.   

 

You cry about how hard mine doors are to bash, yet you walk right through them. 

You complain about  disintegrate, but I have watched you surface mine into sealed off (reinforced) tunnels in person. 

You complain about "5 shots per 3 walls" but neglect to mention that treb damage is no longer capped at 20 damage per hit.

 

Your complaints about the difficulty of raiding are purely self serving and without merit.

 

[Orlaz 243]

7 hours ago, Erin said:

Well tbh, if all small kingdom have deeds they cant defend cause the bigger group come to push them off. The game already costs a lot of money if ppl keep taking drains on the deeds. so making deeds easy to raid that took the small group of players along time to build not rly fair. only ppl that gonna benefit from easy raiding is the stronger group.

 

 

Fair? you talking about fairness? ok, then lets talk fairness commie.

if group A is 500x better than group B, then ofc they should win in every possible way... right? or should group B be buffed up to group A's standard by giving them free everything? if so, why does group A even pay for this game as their work is for nothing?

 

 

 

Edit: The point that changed all of raiding (except when the defending side is incompetent) is when they removed the ability to remove part of the longhouses (also the point when EMR couldnt remove any more deeds, so yes, EMR had it ezmode when they removed Sparta)

Edited July 30, 2018 by Orlaz

[SmeJack 5,798]

In the beginning I enjoyed raiding then it came to the point where it was too much effort vs reward and more often than not just rage inducing from people who wont listen and do stupid things. Somewhere along the line I decided I was ok with this for the health of the game, yes there are people who very much enjoy the land control aspect but there are also those who enjoy stomping on people for the sake of it and I believe this is not healthy. Everyone wants pvp but if you want to take everything people own, kill all their horses and leave them with not even tools to restock then chances are they aren't going to bother and then you have no one to pvp with. Not everyone will quit after they log in to find they have nothing left but I have seen a lot will and do, some will weather this a few times but come to the same end. Maybe I'm biased because I have always enjoyed open field combat more than raiding but to me it just makes sense, leave people with their homes and horse stocks so that they can keep coming back out if and when they are ready but you cant force people to pvp and you certainly can stop them even thinking of trying if you destroy their homes. The change to allow bashing from inside the mine wasn't really a change, it was in for as long as I can remember (I clearly remember having to do it when the Mongol hota tunnel kept getting walled shut) it was an accidental change from some other fix and got reverted back pretty quickly.

I guess the TL;DR for me is, I don't really care that its not fair or too hard, I'd prefer that we retain players and there be people to maybe pvp with if and when the population gets better.

[Wargasm 1,927]

5 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

Everyone wants pvp but if you want to take everything people own, kill all their horses and leave them with not even tools to restock then chances are they aren't going to bother and then you have no one to pvp with.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Guys there is a difference between "Too hard" and "Nearly Impossible"

 

I can assure you, with proper deed design it is the latter.

[Mordraug 2,542]

I have to ask at this point.... 

 

What's the obsession with destroying people's deeds?

 

What makes OP and supporters so intent on being able to bust into a deed and wantonly destroy/steal everything?

 

More importantly:  What logic dictates that making deeds easier to raze will make new players join and stay and old ones want to stay?

 

How will flattening someone's homebase lead to them coming afield more often for PvP (as opposed to Player vs Deed) instead of finding a new game?

 

Before someone says "Wurm is about building, rebuilding counts as building", what would keep deedholders who became easier targets from switching to PvE servers assuming they stick around Wurm to begin with?

 

My ***assumption*** here is that those wanting easier "raids" are after loot, not PvP action.  I may be wrong, but it's really hard to bypass that conclusion.

[Orlaz 243]

50 minutes ago, Mordraug said:

I have to ask at this point.... 

 

What's the obsession with destroying people's deeds?

 

What makes OP and supporters so intent on being able to bust into a deed and wantonly destroy/steal everything?

 

More importantly:  What logic dictates that making deeds easier to raze will make new players join and stay and old ones want to stay?

 

How will flattening someone's homebase lead to them coming afield more often for PvP (as opposed to Player vs Deed) instead of finding a new game?

 

Before someone says "Wurm is about building, rebuilding counts as building", what would keep deedholders who became easier targets from switching to PvE servers assuming they stick around Wurm to begin with?

 

My ***assumption*** here is that those wanting easier "raids" are after loot, not PvP action.  I may be wrong, but it's really hard to bypass that conclusion.

 

"Lemme just plant 30+ deeds on a pvp server that you cant remove so there is no pvp anymore" is what i heard there.

[whereami 564]

2 hours ago, Orlaz said:

 

"Lemme just plant 30+ deeds on a pvp server that you cant remove so there is no pvp anymore" is what i heard there.

 

So then let's talk about a fix for the scenario you just described.

 

Make it so that a kingdom may only have a specific number of deeds per % interval of Chaos territory conquered by chained towers. As an example;

 

(though I think the number of deeds this would allow could still be a little high and would definitely need adjusting)

1 deed may be constructed per 1% of land territory conquered, plus the capital. So the capital is free and doesn't count toward this interval.

Past 5% this interval would increase to say every 1.5 to 2%, and increase by the same amount every interval of 5% after. EG at 10%, 15%, and 20%, so on.

 

This would help to incentivize strategic deed placement, and prevent deed spam. It prevents any one kingdom from growing too large, as the bigger you get the less deeds you will have to secure that territory.

 

But of course, this doesn't benefit any one single kingdom. In fact, this would hinder pretty much all of them, including big-soyboi-on-top OP.

Edited July 30, 2018 by whereami

[Madt 1,178]

I've been following this thread and the long discussion in discord. I was gonna write out a big long post on my opinion but I'm on my phone writing this and I hate typing big posts on my phone.

 

Basically a few things seem clear to me:

 

* The mentality of some groups living on chaos has changed over time.

 

People now expect to be extremely safe on their deeds and don't really want to be raided or do any raiding of their own. This is not how things should be, it's not how chaos is supposed to be. Killing, pillaging and looting are supposed to be a frequent occurance. If you think otherwise, you don't belong on a pvp server. It's like you're trying to grow flowers on a football field and expecting everyone to not run through your pretty flowers. Take your flowers elsewhere. 

 

* People have forgotten what raiding is.

 

The people afraid of being raided have either forgotten or never knew what a regular raid actually is. I blame this on EMR mostly. Their mindset when they started raiding was to turbo nerd and completely destroy almost every deed they raided. They wouldn't just raid, loot and leave. They would raid for several days straight and literally destroy the deed so the defenders just said 'F this, why bother...' and left. That is not how a regular raid works out unless it's for territory control. Nobody will do that to a Capitol deed because then as many people have said, there will be nobody left to play against. 

 

This is is what a regular raid looks like. This video sealed the deal for me on wanting to join the pvp part of Wurm way back in 2007. 

 

 

^ That's a normal raid. Granted it's very outdated in terms of deed design and method of entry, but it still holds the same principles and values. Attackers break in, defenders repair and fend off best they can. Once in the attackers gain entry they kill guards and bust a hole in each house and see what loot they can get. They leave, defenders repair the damage and resupply what was looted. The loss is worth it on a good raid because both sides have fun. Sometimes the kingdom that got attacked would do a retaliation raid the next weekend.

 

My point is, being raided doesn't mean your deed is going to be absolutely destroyed and flattened. I see a lot of people keep saying that. Any smart kingdom knows that demoralising your enemy to the point they up and leave the server is a stupid idea. It leaves nobody for them to fight. As I said before, EMR never really cared about that when they raided and I think they actually wanted to wipe their enemies off the map so they could push for a map reset. Atleast that's what I remember them mentioning a lot. TC is smarter than that. We all want to see a thriving server full of big groups, small groups. Roaming pvp, weekly raids, active HoTA fights. Because that is what's fun for us, we like pvp. What would be the point in destroying any chance of that ever happening again?

 

Ive made a long post when I intended not to and now I'm sick of typing with just my thumbs. Hopefully that gets the point across. Instead of just putting up a block and rejecting any reasoning or progressive discussion, think about it. Chaos is a pvp server where raiding and pvp should be happening very regularly. If it continues like it is now, eventually the server will die.

[SmeJack 5,798]

I agree with you, I don't have a problem with losing all my stuff and have a few times. I enjoy defending too. The problem is that if you balance it for the people who will raid 'thoughtfully' it just makes it all the more easier for those who have the mentality of hur dur lets stomp on everyone and we have seen over and over that these people do exist and they do harm the game. Id rather see changes that start bringing in a more healthy population to have some fun with before we make changes that could essentially secure the death of wurm pvp. Sure raiding can be fun but is it fun if there isn't anyone around? Maybe wurm needs to look at a different direction, maybe it doesn't, all I can comment on is the behaviour I have seen over the years.

[Sn00 1,005]

I found it very funny that according to the suggestion , people will start to raid more thoughtfully even though this suggestion is only made after the op kingdom said they were looking to flatten and removing the deed.

When they failed , they go to the forums suggesting a change, then they claim they will raid more thoughtfully.

[Maxthx 641]

2007? That was over a decade ago... "Granted it's very outdated in terms of deed design and method of entry, but it still holds the same principles and values." Are you joking? I mean sure the American Civil War is definitely the same core principles and values as World War II. Two sides... different governments... wanting to do things their own way... shooting each other... with guns... and cannons... Very similar yes.

 

Wurm in 2007 was as comparable to Wurm today as flintlock pistols can be compared to automatic rifles. In 2007 there was no multistory housing, there was no horse breeding, there was no rare system, there was no real game market and actual dollar value attached to items, there was no proliferation of drake and scale, there was no moon metal. The loss of materials and items in the modern Wurm is a very big deal, in fact its almost the defining deal with how the current PvP world is built. So having your deed broken in to and having all your stuff stolen is a very big deal. Losing your animal breeding operation is a big deal. Having to spend hundreds of dollars on new equipment/rare materials so you aren't completely outclassed in weapons and armor is a big deal.

 

In the past you could literally just replace anything. You could replace the PvP sets of an entire kingdom within a single day with a solid effort. In the Old World of Wurm PvP it was not a big deal to lose everything and was very fun. But that world is gone. Stuff is important. Losing all your stuff is a big deal. Making it EASIER for enemies to take all your stuff is a big deal.

 

I feel weird having to point this out... but making it harder to defend yourself is a terrible way to promote PvP. Making it harder to build, maintain, and defend deeds is basically telling players not to bother trying to PvP. Because everything you do will be broken, destroyed, stolen, and then mocked for even making the attempt. Should that always be a possibility/threat? Yes. Does that mean it should be made so simple it can be done in a single afternoon by half a dozen people? No.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Regardless of whatever changes people plan to implement, it will require voices from literally everyone so a certain kingdom who happens to be the most vocal, doesn't just freight train their ideas to the top.

 

I do generally agree with @Madtbut I think it goes beyond mentality, the game itself has changed to an unplayable state for pvp, the accounts keep getting more stacked, and honestly the people playing the game are just not good people (a lot of sore winners). Everyone who is still on pvp servers have been on pvp servers for a long freakin' time, they are using this long term knowledge to really stack themselves up.

Edited July 30, 2018 by FranktheTank

[Themystrix 376]

5 hours ago, Sn00 said:

I found it very funny that according to the suggestion , people will start to raid more thoughtfully even though this suggestion is only made after the op kingdom said they were looking to flatten and removing the deed.

When they failed , they go to the forums suggesting a change, then they claim they will raid more thoughtfully.

Aye, TC has stated multiple times that they will disband all other kingdoms except WU and VD since they are not pvping, i guess now that VD ain't doing much in eyes of TC, it has changed to only WU and TC to hold their hands under the moonlight so they would remain the 2 last kingdoms aaaaand now they are failing to disband pandas... well, its only obvious to whine about it. ......edit: kinda reminds me of times when exploits were only reported after enough abuse and people got away with it.

 

 

edit: Stop account sharing for good and maybe make it a bannable offence.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Themystrix

[Madt 1,178]

9 minutes ago, Themystrix said:

Aye, TC has stated multiple times that they will disband all other kingdoms except WU and VD since they are not pvping, i guess now that VD ain't doing much in eyes of TC, it has changed to only WU and TC to hold their hands under the moonlight so they would remain the 2 last kingdoms aaaaand now they are failing to disband pandas... well, its only obvious to whine about it.

 

 

edit: Stop account sharing for good and maybe make it a bannable offence.

 

Tbh, can you blame the frustration? Why would you want to have people on the same pvp server as you if they refuse to pvp? You'd kick a player from a tf2 or some other FPS match if all they did was sit in spawn and not actually play and fight.

 

What does account sharing have to do with anything?

[FranktheTank 1,901]

10 minutes ago, Madt said:

 

Tbh, can you blame the frustration? Why would you want to have people on the same pvp server as you if they refuse to pvp? You'd kick a player from a tf2 or some other FPS match if all they did was sit in spawn and not actually play and fight.

Last I checked, if I die in TF2 I respawn, if I die in wurm I lose close to 100e.

 

People not throwing themselves to TC 100% warrants their kingdoms destruction! /sarcasm

 

FYI, last time a group got starved of pvp they disbanded, because they took the hint.

 

You cannot be this dense.

Edited July 30, 2018 by FranktheTank