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Roccandil

PvP Holidays

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4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

If no one's online to defend, how does gear-dropping-or-not by the attackers have any effect on the outcome?

 

because oddly enough people can login or the few that are on can attempt to kill people but even if they do it stops nothing as they cannot stop the entire raid force or defend so its literally pissing on a wildfire

 

if raiding/defending even needs to be explained here on a basic level then that just shows why this being a bad idea is not understood

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Just now, MrGARY said:

 

because oddly enough people can login or the few that are on can attempt to kill people but even if they do it stops nothing as they cannot stop the entire raid force or defend so its literally pissing on a wildfire

 

With soulbound gear, if you all die getting a kill, you can all respawn and immediately shoot for another kill. Maybe that won't stop the entire raid force, but I'd have a hard time believing you'd be in -worse- shape if the first time you tried to defend you lost all your gear and respawned with nothing.

 

Now if tents allow you to respawn outside an enemy deed, then yeah, I can see defending being irrelevant, and no-drop gear not having an effect. One solution would be to force the enemy to respawn at home; that would allow a smaller defense force to whittle down an enemy attack force and gain time (unless the enemy deed is minutes away, which is a risk all its own).

 

In that case, I'd also include an item-soulbinding mechanic. That process wouldn't be allowed on enemy deeds, and would perhaps only be possible on your deed. So, any looted items would drop if you were killed: no suiciding in, looting, and waiting for a free trip home.

 

A simpler solution, however, would be to make enemy deeds the only place where you drop gear if killed. Wanna loot that deed? You gotta risk it all, against defenders who can respawn and never drop gear....

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6 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

If no one's online to defend, how does gear-dropping-or-not by the attackers have any effect on the outcome?

 

 

I doubt Mino is representative of Chaos. Granted, I have no experience on Chaos, which is why I was relying on Prophetear's report: that almost no one successfully raids, that loot is on merchants/storage alts, and that raiding is about resources.

 

To your point, however, we didn't kill any Mino attackers, because no one was on to defend. The question of whether or not we might have gotten loot from the attackers, and how we would have felt about not being able to, is moot (moot loot! :P ).

 

But if even one defender had been on, no gear drops would have made that one defender a -lot- more annoying, and you might not have looted as much as you did.

Exactly, if there had been risk, defenders may back off. 

 

But lets look at the mechanics alone. Lets forget for a moment risk vs reward and all that.

 

You are in pristine at a disbanded deed and decide to loot the place. You load yourself up with loot and simply let yourself die from mobs or use your alt to kill yourself. You instantly appear at your deed with all the loot without having to travel.

 

Do the same at an enemy deed. Or do the same at your kingdommate's deed which you have decided to leave. 

 

Too op.

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Big no.

 

Mitigates the reason pmks exist.

 

Also if you were looking for pvp holidays in the effect of "pvp holidays occurring on actual holidays like Christmas" that is already generally done afaik.

Edited by FranktheTank

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12 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Exactly, if there had been risk, defenders may back off. 

 

From my perspective, defenders backing off is a bad thing. This is why I like the idea of enemy deeds being the only place where you -do- drop soulbound gear if killed. That shifts the burden of risk back to the attackers; they'll drop gear if killed, but the defenders won't.

 

That would encourage a lone defender to fight against the odds, in hopes of maybe getting a nice loot drop. Really, you'd -want- enemies to raid you at that point. :P

 

Quote

 

But lets look at the mechanics alone. Lets forget for a moment risk vs reward and all that.

 

You are in pristine at a disbanded deed and decide to loot the place. You load yourself up with loot and simply let yourself die from mobs or use your alt to kill yourself. You instantly appear at your deed with all the loot without having to travel.

 

Do the same at an enemy deed. Or do the same at your kingdommate's deed which you have decided to leave. 

 

Too op.

 

This was a PvP suggestion only, but as to PvE, the additional method of requiring a process to soulbind gear means you can't just go random places and die to bring loot home; you'll drop the loot, since it won't be soulbound to you.

 

Besides, I can already go to a remote location, load up on loot, and karma/med teleport home. I don't have to die to do that.

 

I'll add, though, that soulbinding gear would be nice for PvE. Get killed by a random troll/fall, and you don't have to worry about not being able to find/reach your good stuff.

Edited by Roccandil

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8 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

 

Mitigates the reason pmks exist.

 

pmk only exist to sell stuff to freedom...

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32 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

From my perspective, defenders backing off is a bad thing. This is why I like the idea of enemy deeds being the only place where you -do- drop soulbound gear if killed. That shifts the burden of risk back to the attackers; they'll drop gear if killed, but the defenders won't.

 

That would encourage a lone defender to fight against the odds, in hopes of maybe getting a nice loot drop. Really, you'd -want- enemies to raid you at that point. :P

 

 

This was a PvP suggestion only, but as to PvE, the additional method of requiring a process to soulbind gear means you can't just go random places and die to bring loot home; you'll drop the loot, since it won't be soulbound to you.

 

Besides, I can already go to a remote location, load up on loot, and karma/med teleport home. I don't have to die to do that.

 

I'll add, though, that soulbinding gear would be nice for PvE. Get killed by a random troll/fall, and you don't have to worry about not being able to find/reach your good stuff.

So you arent suggesting a pvp holliday? You want permanent no gear loss?

 

Hahahaha no.

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42 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

So you arent suggesting a pvp holliday? You want permanent no gear loss?

 

I don't know, actually. Gear loss clearly depresses PvP action, and very often makes the right answer staying on deed or logging to preserve gear.

 

Doing something like a PvP holiday temporarily as an experiment could result in interesting data.

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55 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I don't know, actually. Gear loss clearly depresses PvP action, and very often makes the right answer staying on deed or logging to preserve gear.

 

Doing something like a PvP holiday temporarily as an experiment could result in interesting data.

If they did that i'd quit.

Everyone not ever dropping gear would be so boring... Like, everyone would wear rare scalesets and run away from u at 16 km/h, unequiping ur armor at any given time would be a pointless skill you've developed to catch people / run away from them, people would be so fast and probably have even more deeds everywhere because of how risk free it would be to go cap a tower and insta'deed the place, so you basically not only never get any loot, you would also never get any kills LOL

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2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

From my perspective, defenders backing off is a bad thing. This is why I like the idea of enemy deeds being the only place where you -do- drop soulbound gear if killed. That shifts the burden of risk back to the attackers; they'll drop gear if killed, but the defenders won't.

 

That would encourage a lone defender to fight against the odds, in hopes of maybe getting a nice loot drop. Really, you'd -want- enemies to raid you at that point. :P

 

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

This was a PvP suggestion only, but as to PvE, the additional method of requiring a process to soulbind gear means you can't just go random places and die to bring loot home; you'll drop the loot, since it won't be soulbound to you.

 

Besides, I can already go to a remote location, load up on loot, and karma/med teleport home. I don't have to die to do that.

 

I'll add, though, that soulbinding gear would be nice for PvE. Get killed by a random troll/fall, and you don't have to worry about not being able to find/reach your good stuff.

 

So glad people don't take you seriously cause ur so full of BS

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1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

If they did that i'd quit.

Everyone not ever dropping gear would be so boring...

 

Almost nobody playing can be pretty boring, too. :P

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

 

Like, everyone would wear rare scalesets and run away from u at 16 km/h, unequiping ur armor at any given time would be a pointless skill you've developed to catch people / run away from them,

 

If equipping/unequipping were -really- a problem, there are ways to handle that (no swapping armor with enemies in local, no swapping armor while moving, timer on armor swapping, etc.). The current insta-equip/unequip for armor is somewhat counter-immersive anyhow.

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

 

people would be so fast and probably have even more deeds everywhere because of how risk free it would be to go cap a tower and insta'deed the place,

 

The dynamic would certainly be different, but capping/deeding would be not be "free"; they would simply be limited/contested by actual combat, not by fear of item loss.

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

so you basically not only never get any loot, you would also never get any kills LOL

 

I suspect very much the opposite: that you would see a -lot- more combat.

 

1 hour ago, Gladiator said:

So glad people don't take you seriously cause ur so full of BS

 

Now that's just lazy. :P

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Alright so this idea was basically the challenge server yea?

That was vacant of life within 2 weeks, you could make gear in about 15 minutes.

 

Justify your suggestion, that somehow people keep commenting on and debating as if to flesh it out, would be different than that entire server.

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46 minutes ago, Cornchips said:

Alright so this idea was basically the challenge server yea?

That was vacant of life within 2 weeks, you could make gear in about 15 minutes.

 

Justify your suggestion, that somehow people keep commenting on and debating as if to flesh it out, would be different than that entire server.

 

I didn't play on that server, although I did hear that one significant issue was opportunity cost: if you were playing on the Challenge server, you weren't playing/skilling/improving your main on Epic/Freedom, and nothing you did on Challenge carried over to Epic/Freedom.

 

To me, that sounds like a good reason why a Challenge server would have failed in the past, whatever its features. Why spend time on a temporary toon, when you have a permanent one you're paying for? (Given the current state of PvP, however, that reason might not discourage as many people today.)

 

Nevertheless, I deliberately suggested this as a temporary experiment on Epic/Chaos, to avoid that problem. A troubleshooting mantra is change one thing at a time: introducing a whole new server changes way too much at once to be a good test of one mechanic.

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1 hour ago, Cornchips said:

...you could make gear in about 15 minutes.

 

By the way, making gear in 15 minutes does you no good if enemies are in your deed, and you're respawning there.

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a more casual(ish) pvp could still be interesting... challenged worked for the first run, half succeeded on the second and was completely dropped without anything done to keep it running.

 

The epic change drew in some fresh blood (including me), but seeing how the skill transfer was managed, it only bled out epic from most of its population.

 

so meh... the whole situation is kinda a dead cause lately, lets see what the next batch of changes will bring and what kind of gameplay would interest more people, knowing PvP will never be main stream in wurm.

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This is a terrible idea. Everyone would go crazy at first and a slaughterfest would ensue for an hour or so until it got boring like a game of team deathmatch in a first person shooter game, because those games have no risk, then everyone would get bored of endlessly killing and being killed. Then everyone would just start making territorial advances/raiding deeds/other progressive and aggressive advances against their enemies while not risking anything. The stronger side in any attack/defence technically could never win the battle in attacking or defending. The respawners would just keep coming back over and over. Even if you killed the whole group, they could just regroup at their respawn and come back endlessly until you got so tired and bored of just killing them but not actually gaining any loot or actual victory.

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4 hours ago, Madt said:

This is a terrible idea. Everyone would go crazy at first and a slaughterfest would ensue for an hour or so until it got boring like a game of team deathmatch in a first person shooter game, because those games have no risk, then everyone would get bored of endlessly killing and being killed.

 

Shooters are -far- more popular than Wurm, and I have a hard time believing boredom would be a problem. :P (You might also see a population spike...)

 

4 hours ago, Madt said:

Then everyone would just start making territorial advances/raiding deeds/other progressive and aggressive advances against their enemies while not risking anything. The stronger side in any attack/defence technically could never win the battle in attacking or defending. The respawners would just keep coming back over and over. Even if you killed the whole group, they could just regroup at their respawn and come back endlessly until you got so tired and bored of just killing them but not actually gaining any loot or actual victory.

 

Winning battles would depend on combat strength and distance from spawnpoints. The closer to a spawnpoint, the easier winning would be, the farther away, the harder, and winning would simply be territorial control. In this dynamic, sitting on deed is the risky move, because you're potentially letting the enemy get territory for free.

 

I do realize Wurm PvP seems to be all about the rush of putting your hard-earned loot on the line to possibly get someone else's hard-earned loot, but I also get the impression that only a handful of people in the world actually like that (and I suspect they're here already :P ).

 

If low population is a problem, then tweaking the gameplay dynamic to appeal to more people is the only practical solution I see. Do you all really think there are a significant number of people in the world who aren't playing Wurm PvP, simply because they haven't heard of it?

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You're really not understanding it. Wurm isn't the sort of game where fast paced, zero risk combat thrives. As others have said, the challenge server was similar to what you are suggesting. It did not last long and was a failure. If what you are suggesting was introduced to Chaos and Epic, people would just give up after they've been beaten into submission where only the strongest kingdoms win. Everyone would save their planned, risky attacks for the one day that they'll lose nothing. The time inbetween would be silent. You would literally restrict any decent PvP to the one day when they won't lose anything. Outside of that time frame would be dead because why take the risk when you could wait until the one day you don't risk anything.

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15 minutes ago, Madt said:

You're really not understanding it. Wurm isn't the sort of game where fast paced, zero risk combat thrives.

 

I don't see my suggestion as "fast-paced, zero-risk". Faster-paced perhaps, in the sense that getting off deed would be encouraged, and less risk, in that your on-character items wouldn't drop unless raiding.

 

You'd still be risking territory, horses, boats, time, resources, and deeds.

 

15 minutes ago, Madt said:

As others have said, the challenge server was similar to what you are suggesting. It did not last long and was a failure.

 

A temporary server was directly competing with permanent servers, and that by itself was probably enough to cause failure, especially if the permanent servers were in better shape in those days.

 

15 minutes ago, Madt said:

If what you are suggesting was introduced to Chaos and Epic, people would just give up after they've been beaten into submission where only the strongest kingdoms win. Everyone would save their planned, risky attacks for the one day that they'll lose nothing. The time inbetween would be silent. You would literally restrict any decent PvP to the one day when they won't lose anything. Outside of that time frame would be dead because why take the risk when you could wait until the one day you don't risk anything.

 

How many people take the risk of going off-deed now?

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18 minutes ago, Roccandil said:
 
You'd still be risking territory, horses, boats, time, resources, and deeds

 

But to what end? Yes you conquered kingdom X and their lands. You didn't actually gain anything because their land is just as useful as your land because it's all the same. Unless it's right next to the Hota but even then, what's the point?

 

Wurm pvp is mostly about loot first and control over certain, valuable territories second. This just wouldn't work. People would get bored in one weekend and any newcomers wouldn't really care about it. Some freedom folk might like it for a short while but the novelty would wear off quickly. 

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38 minutes ago, Madt said:

 

But to what end? Yes you conquered kingdom X and their lands. You didn't actually gain anything because their land is just as useful as your land because it's all the same. Unless it's right next to the Hota but even then, what's the point?

 

True, all lands in Wurm feel much the same: no resource scarcity or diversity. At the very least, though, territory is a buffer zone. An isolated deed would be easier to raid, so expanding is a form of defense.

 

I do agree that a greater point to it all would be good, whether something like the Valrei scenarios, or something else.

 

38 minutes ago, Madt said:

This just wouldn't work. People would get bored in one weekend and any newcomers wouldn't really care about it.

 

Aren't people already bored? And as to newcomers, I suspect the full loot nature of Wurm PvP is one reason why so few people participate.

 

Full loot PvP, as best I can see, is self-devouring. The wolves eat the sheep, the sheep leave, and the wolves get bored eating each other. :P

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7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Aren't people already bored? And as to newcomers, I suspect the full loot nature of Wurm PvP is one reason why so few people participate.

 

Full loot PvP, as best I can see, is self-devouring. The wolves eat the sheep, the sheep leave, and the wolves get bored eating each other. :P

Listen, kid, you've never PVP'd, why in heaven's name do you give a crap about PVP and keep spouting bad suggestion when you dont even do it?

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