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Mclavin

Updates the current pvp community want

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7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

I don't mind a permadeath Champ system (a step to removing champs entirely, perhaps), but the way to deal with high-end accounts isn't to remove them, but to lower their replacement cost, such that a newbie can develop a near-high-end account in a few months.

 

Epic already does this to an extent, and intensifying the effect would be simple enough.

 

This is exactly the kind of #### I am talking about. You want a free ride to the top, the ability to create a 90+ in every characteristic account in a matter of a year or less while others have worked for 8+ years on one to even get close to that.

 

Go back home to Epic kiddo. The ride is much easier there. Worry about fixing your own population and stop trying to land the final killing blow on this dying moose.

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Can we get a challenge server to test the changes. Actually just give us one period, the first 2 weeks of the first challenge was the best pvp experience i have had in the game ever.

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5 hours ago, whereami said:

 

This is exactly the kind of #### I am talking about. You want a free ride to the top, the ability to create a 90+ in every characteristic account in a matter of a year or less while others have worked for 8+ years on one to even get close to that.

 

Go back home to Epic kiddo. The ride is much easier there. Worry about fixing your own population and stop trying to land the final killing blow on this dying moose.

 

Sounds like -you- want no competition. :P Protecting the value of the existing Chaos accounts means population stasis, at best. Who's going to spend eight years being behind to -possibly- catch up? By that time, the current eight-year accounts will be sixteen-year accounts.

 

Any top-tier account that's lasted since Wurm began was done in "easy mode". They weren't many years -behind- when they started, and it's a great deal easier to be a top account when you've been a top account from the beginning. Anyone who was years behind and caught up anyhow, that's impressive, yet it still represents a window of opportunity that is closing, or has closed already.

 

Bottom line: the more that time goes by, the less chance a new player has to catch up on Chaos; to do so, they -must- buy an account.

 

Is that really a good thing?

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The argument for addressing the high entry bar is one that's been around for a long time

 

The complaints about scale/drake, moonmetals, meditation, tomes are all ones I've seen you all commenting on from the position of "entering pvp requires too much time" , why are skills and stats not a part of that discussion when meditation is a breeze compared to other skills and stats? 

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32 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

meditation is a breeze compared to other skills and stats? 

Meditation is not a breeze compared to other skills and stats ... Meditation makes you wait.... Literally just wait... and wait.. and wait.. and wait and wait...

 And there is nothing you can do to change that. I think its the worst skill in the game, i absolutely despise it and wished it wasnt a thing

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31 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

The argument for addressing the high entry bar is one that's been around for a long time

 

The complaints about scale/drake, moonmetals, meditation, tomes are all ones I've seen you all commenting on from the position of "entering pvp requires too much time" , why are skills and stats not a part of that discussion when meditation is a breeze compared to other skills and stats? 

 

I think these guys all complain about how meditation is so unfair in the time it takes to get anywhere and why they demand for all meditation ability's to be nerfed for those reasons. No one wants to put time into anything, the problem is we have players who accept the wurm mechanics of being pretty much hardcore compared to all other games, it takes time to earn skills and level the meditation paths. There is no 2 week grinds to max your levels as you see in other games which cater to the instant gratification kiddies. The main reason I found wurm appealing to play is that it requires a commitment of time to level your character, a theme I enjoyed playing muds back in the 90s and in games such as everquest and eve, eve has changed its path though so I no longer include that game in challenges.

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The high barrier of entry is natural in the game, but there's options to help mitigate it's severity. These options are being explored.

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So far the only people complaining don't even PVP.  Hate when people like JakeRivers have to give their input into something they are not part of.  Dude has to make sure to comment in about every thread posted.

Edited by nicedreams

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Can everyone just slow their rolls when it comes to demanding this change?

 

I think everyone should know by now that rushing into "solutions" almost always leads to negative outcomes for all sides. By all means continue posting ideas, but stop trying to set them up for release tomorrow.

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43 minutes ago, Quicktor said:

 

this guy is a joke anyway, i mean look at this forum avatar, pathetic

 

Oh, bother. :P

 

4 hours ago, Sindusk said:

The high barrier of entry is natural in the game, but there's options to help mitigate it's severity. These options are being explored.

 

As Mclavin points out, the high barrier of entry is not static. At the beginning, no real barrier existed at all, but as time has gone by, it's climbed and climbed and climbed, and the barrier to entry won't stop climbing.

 

That's a fundamental consequence of the game design, and it will result in new players not sticking around, even players willing to spend time skilling up. The only solutions I know of are a curve like Epic's (which doesn't solve things like tomes), or a scheduled complete wipe. Are there any others?

 

8 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Meditation is not a breeze compared to other skills and stats ... Meditation makes you wait.... Literally just wait... and wait.. and wait.. and wait and wait...

 And there is nothing you can do to change that. I think its the worst skill in the game, i absolutely despise it and wished it wasnt a thing

 

Meditation is much easier to skill to 70 now on Epic, but you still have to wait and wait and wait. What I hate most is how you've already waited 18 days, but then the game decides to make you meditate over and over again before it gives you a question, which is offputting in multiple ways, since I'll sit there reading a book, and occasionally repair the rug and meditate again. :P

 

Were it me, I'd make the following changes:

 

- Give all med skill in one tick per day (why force players to login every three hours? one tick per day can result in the same total number of days required to skill up)

- Never randomly not award the tick (why frustrate the players? if it needs to take more days to skill up, there are better ways to balance that)

- Always give a question when the player is ready (why tie a player down doing something akin to macroing, when they have other actually fun things they'd rather do in game?)

- Don't allow wrong answers (why force a player to look up an answer, or risk another 18 days of waiting? I'm reminded of the critical "what can change the nature of a man" question from Planescape Torment; it's not the right answer that counts, it's -your- answer, and maybe have some interesting but different lore to go along with each answer)

 

And do -something- with SotG, as many have suggested. It's much too critical to PvP. Meditation should be a nice bonus, but no one path should be a requirement.

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Removing meditation paths for pvp servers is the only way in my opinion.

 

Although if they were kept, again I would say to keep them on Chaos, as I still feel Chaos should represent all the content of Freedom, with pvp attached. And Epic should represent a complete and total pvp cluster with a faster pace than the grind.

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17 hours ago, Haseroth said:

Can we get a challenge server to test the changes. Actually just give us one period, the first 2 weeks of the first challenge was the best pvp experience i have had in the game ever.

 

I'd like that. I almost wonder if the real solution isn't a new PvP server/cluster that's so much fun, everyone just leaves Chaos/Epic (no forcing of any kind).

 

But yes, it needs a scheduled expiration.

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21 minutes ago, FranktheTank said:

Removing meditation paths for pvp servers is the only way in my opinion.

 

Although if they were kept, again I would say to keep them on Chaos, as I still feel Chaos should represent all the content of Freedom, with pvp attached. And Epic should represent a complete and total pvp cluster with a faster pace than the grind.

 

At a minimum, I would leave Path of Love and Path of Knowledge intact.

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- My Wish (rant) List -

 

Kill Chaos.

Make PvP only happen on Epic.

Fix the skill transfer between Freedom and Epic so people will "want to" grind on Epic.

As long as Chaos is around Epic is useless.

Make Elevation a Challenge server that resets every couple years.

Kill "locate soul" or make it work like a longer rang pendulum (50-100 more tiles than pendulum).

 

If you keep Chaos then PvP will not move to Epic no matter what changes because of skill transfers.  You have some good changes on Epic, but no people to play since 90% of Wurm Online doesn't want to grind any skill on Epic except for personal goals.

 

Be nice when you get really bored to just "Warp" (Epic Portal) over to PvP and start building or fighting then when nothing going on from time differences with alliance members or burned out on building deed can just "portal" back to freedom and do something else.

 

Make Epic the real home of the Gods where what we do on Epic reflects outcomes on Freedom.  Having a mission on Elevation Challenge Server that is big and once completed does something to Freedom like changes the weather something else that's fun and involved.  Have at least 1 or 2 things that happen on Epic cause/effect on Freedom.  Like how recharging Tombs on Chaos makes the sky go black.  Have mission from Epic do something like that on Freedom.  Epic is supposed to be this big bad ass place where you next to the Valrei Gods.  Make Epic lore change how Freedom lore works.  Make Epic (land of the Gods) be a direct end game for Freedomers with missions like this.  The changes from missions on Epic would change actual game play on Freedom, just simple things like weather, rift spawn timer, darkened sky, something like this.  Need a gale on Freedom, yell at people on Epic to finish mission to help change the weather a bit.  lol

 

If I was new and saw how people were doing things on Epic that you couldn't do on Freedom and missions affects freedom in certain ways, I'd call that end game (or at least second half of the game) and something to aim for.

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37 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

I'd like that. I almost wonder if the real solution isn't a new PvP server/cluster that's so much fun, everyone just leaves Chaos/Epic (no forcing of any kind).

 

But yes, it needs a scheduled expiration.

 

thats what the epic refocus intention was, and the result of that wasn't very good to say the least. The intention was obvious, they implemented a whole bunch of good changes to a very dead server in an attempt to get people to leave the other while denying that server the very basic balance updates they had been asking for and said "if you want balance changes, go play Epic"... the result? Epic gained a few people that liked WU paced building and skilling, and lost all of the devoted players that remained there until the end. As far as I'm concerned Epic officially died last year and was replaced by something else with the same name. 

 

the only thing that would make me leave Chaos is an Epic 180 that gives me the same feeling of relaxed yet steady pvp that I got in 2012-mid 2014 on epic

but we will never get that back because unless you continually reset the server like every 2-3 years or something (which causes a whole bunch of other problems) you eventually run into the same stale gameplay, its just the way the game is unfortunately. You're going to have people that turbonerd ahead of the rest, you're going to have the people that can remain priests 100% of the time because they share kingdom crafters, you're eventually going to get to a point at which buying an account is the only way to to get in at a reasonable pace. And if you don't have these issues then you've completely changed the game and the people that enjoy the way it is currently are likely to be no longer playing.  most of the people in this thread didn't get to experience Epic when it was really at its best, and thats a true shame. 

 

anything else, you'd literally have to shut chaos down to get me off of it

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also i can't help but feel that we've gotten pretty far off track with what the original discussion was supposed to be about, at this point its just a bunch of rambling back and forth. My suggestion would be if the devs want real feedback on pvp AS A WHOLE, create a thread with a comprehensive list of bulleted points and ask for feedback/suggestions on it, if you're serious about it. 

 

this thread wasn't supposed to be a complete overhaul of the game or anything and it wasn't supposed to be a complete comprehensive list of everything that people thought was wrong with pvp, it was just supposed to be a small list of good suggestions that were for the most part nearly 100% supported

 

Most of us here have been apart of "complete overhaul" threads, asking for huge changes like shutting down clusters, making new ones, changing maps, etc etc and 100% of those suggestion threads went nowhere (except for ele map reset 2015 topkek ql map)

Edited by platinumteef
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46 minutes ago, platinumteef said:

also i can't help but feel that we've gotten pretty far off track with what the original discussion was supposed to be about, at this point its just a bunch of rambling back and forth. My suggestion would be if the devs want real feedback on pvp AS A WHOLE, create a thread with a comprehensive list of bulleted points and ask for feedback/suggestions on it, if you're serious about it. 

 

While this thread did derail, it also caused some good discussion about where PvP should be headed. Just because the discussion was slightly off topic doesn't make it irrelevant. Also, I think you're right with creating a thread asking for points of feedback and suggestions. I'll see what I can do in a couple weeks after the existing changes go through and more information about what's coming next is revealed.

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can we stop listening to people trying to shut down 4 maps and merge everything into chaos so they can maintain their kingdom coffers?

 

anyone saying epic is useless or barren are the people who cant make RL money off their pvp wins thus think that the entire cluster should be closed.  If we make changed based on the people who can or cant make money,  PVP will never actually grow.  Just higher whales with bigger wallets.  

Edited by totties
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Locate soul is bad for pvp if over 200 tiles. Anyone saying its worthless is also the type of person who has to min max everything to the nth degree or you are "trash" !Please! don't make it any larger or less pvp will happen.

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4 hours ago, platinumteef said:

 

thats what the epic refocus intention was, and the result of that wasn't very good to say the least. The intention was obvious, they implemented a whole bunch of good changes to a very dead server in an attempt to get people to leave the other while denying that server the very basic balance updates they had been asking for and said "if you want balance changes, go play Epic"... the result? Epic gained a few people that liked WU paced building and skilling, and lost all of the devoted players that remained there until the end. As far as I'm concerned Epic officially died last year and was replaced by something else with the same name. 

 

If gutting Chaos were the intention, introducing the good Epic changes at exactly the time as the Epic to Freedom transfer was a huge mistake.

 

At any rate, I think the transfer shows how much existing player investment matters, and realistically, I wouldn't want to see Chaos or Epic changed in any way that would hurt that investment.

 

For that reason, I'd love to see a new PvP server, with faster skilling, that lasts two months (to match a single premium subscription). At the least, we could try out different mechanics, and since very little would be on the line, I bet the PvP would be intense. :)

 

I know there are problems with that (time spent on an ephemeral server is time not spent grinding permanent accounts), but there seems to be enough desire for a 180 on PvP that I think we could get a decent population anyhow.

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6 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

Removing meditation paths for pvp servers is the only way in my opinion.


One suggestion was make it the Base path on Epic/Chaos so we all have SOTG no matter the level and we instead just level up the other paths.

If you take it away we're all gonna be 4 hit with huge axes, but keeping the DR and giving to everybody is more realistic 

Edited by Mclavin

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I just want to take the time to point out one thing;

 

While there has been a lot of discussion, mostly just about how everyone discussing here wants to kill Chaos as a whole, none of the players discussing in this thread have even played on Chaos for more than 2 or 3 years total. Chaos used to have at least 150 to 200 active players every day, but what happened?

The Epic crew came over and started making changes.

You allowed skill transfers from Epic which FLOODED the market with high-end accounts making them as worthless as woodscraps, thus causing the massive PvP requirement you now currently ##### about constantly.

 

Maybe if the Devs would stop taking random Epic-refugees seriously and treating them like Vets that know the server and the differing way PvP works on Chaos, we'd actually still have some refugees from the old JKC and MRC kingdoms.

Instead you've literally turned it into Epic and now, much like Epic itself, no one wants to play there...

 

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11 minutes ago, whereami said:

I just want to take the time to point out one thing;

 

While there has been a lot of discussion, mostly just about how everyone discussing here wants to kill Chaos as a whole, none of the players discussing in this thread have even played on Chaos for more than 2 or 3 years total. Chaos used to have at least 150 to 200 active players every day, but what happened?

The Epic crew came over and started making changes.

You allowed skill transfers from Epic which FLOODED the market with high-end accounts making them as worthless as woodscraps, thus causing the massive PvP requirement you now currently ##### about constantly.

 

Maybe if the Devs would stop taking random Epic-refugees seriously and treating them like Vets that know the server and the differing way PvP works on Chaos, we'd actually still have some refugees from the old JKC and MRC kingdoms.

Instead you've literally turned it into Epic and now, much like Epic itself, no one wants to play there...

 

I personally did not stop playing because of epic changes being brought into chaos, so your reasoning feels insanely bias'd and it feels as though you are simply trying to turn it into a epic vs chaos debacle. Reason why i personally quit is because the devs had stopped speaking to us, the changes were bare and so far and few inbetween, it felt as though they had abandonned pvp. Not because i didn't like epic people.

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2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

If gutting Chaos were the intention, introducing the good Epic changes at exactly the time as the Epic to Freedom transfer was a huge mistake.

 

you do realize the only reason epic > freedom happened was because of players crying right? in the original post, there was no such thing as epic > freedom

it was freedom > epic only

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41 minutes ago, whereami said:

Chaos used to have at least 150 to 200 active players every day, but what happened?

 

MR got checked by people that actually knew how to pvp and weren't stuck in the stone age of Wurm pvp

 

and please, lets not for one second pretend chaos is the only server bleeding out, the overall population of freedom hits nearly under 200 nightly topkek, and thats with people and their alts logged in, we going to blame that on the epic bois as well?

 

 

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