Supply and Demand

[jonsnow 40]

The biggest glaring issue is that supply is easy demand is non existent.

 

Looking at the current issue lets start from the beginning -supply.

 

Right now you can acquire more wood and ore than you will ever need.  This is a problem.  So one might suggest some easy fixes to this-

 

lesson node quantity of ore.

increase amount of resources used for impinge as item quality increases.

increase time required for trees to grow, thus creating a demand for wood.  

 

This is only the beginning.

 

the real issue is this is an old game with old characters.  Those old characters want and need something to strive for.

 

so we implement a modified rare system.  You can still get them by chance but you can now try to improve an item to the next level of rarity but...  the chances are super small and get smaller the higher you go and the item is destroyed on failure.  This would create a need for high level items and would recycle old items creating a new demand.  

 

Bonus - add another level of rarity, and remove skill cap (items cap at 100ql but skill level would very minimally increase success chance.

 

for example first level of rarity with 50 skill might be a 5% chance.  Next level 2%,1%, and .1% etc...

 

this would mean low level characters could be useful by trying to churn rates (entry rates not high level ones such as supreme) that then would be sold to high level players to try the next step

 

By making these changes in combination with changing the benefits to match the difficulty of acquiring could be extremely beneficial to the economy.

 

for non tools just change the effect to match rarity 

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Firstly, while I understand that the basics of supply and demand may appear as though raw materials are the problem, that is simply not the case. Limiting access to raw materials is a huge slap in the face of any new player that comes along in the game, as they are essentially told, "hey if you want ____ you are going to have to join my village, or pay me". Limiting access to materials, specifically iron is almost suicidal for any new player, for gods sake they cannot even make a chisel.

 

Any reduction of additional nodes would lead to exponentially growing problems of the have and have not variety. You would create a demand for wood, sure but now there are entire forests being cut down, and the wood is being sold at a premium. I saw this exact thing play out on Life is Feudal, and it was NOT pretty, you had (I assume this would happen in wurm as well) large groups acting like mafioso in their acquisition of  corners of the map in a "you join us and our collectivist society or die" game play that offered extreme rewards for those on the top of the pyramid, while creating a permanent underclass relegated to fishing and living in a hut growing subsistence potato and flax crop. Again, this could and would easily happen in wurm, while not underestimating players will to remove whole forests for skill gain.

 

The modified rare system only works to reward players to make new alts, and does not accomplish much in terms of balance. The other option being recruiting new players to work on specific smithing projects to produce mass quantities of product they don't even want to do. The current rarity system of randomness is in my honest opinion much better.

[Oblivionnreaver 5,175]

Yeah, and they can sell an item for $5 in the shop that prevents you from breaking the weapon!

 

jesus christ man no i avoid korean/chinese mmo's for a reason.

[Ekib 183]

3 hours ago, jonsnow said:

 

increase amount of resources used for impinge as item quality increases.

increase time required for trees to grow, thus creating a demand for wood.  

 

2 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

Firstly, while I understand that the basics of supply and demand may appear as though raw materials are the problem, that is simply not the case. Limiting access to raw materials is a huge slap in the face of any new player that comes along in the game, as they are essentially told, "hey if you want ____ you are going to have to join my village, or pay me". Limiting access to materials, specifically iron is almost suicidal for any new player, for gods sake they cannot even make a chisel.

this. many old players got those huge stock cause we worked the land and took out time getting it. the supply is here cause people worked for it. sure, some overstock, but making things suddenly harder to get wont work... its wurm not fallout. the ressources are plentyful, but the time to aquire them isnt.

 

as for the rare idea...like frank said, would just make people spam out new alts all the time. would only cripple the game...for example:

a rl friend is in my village. he's using bunch of items to grind his skills up and get some lvl up to be able to fend for himself. its slow hard and boring work. so for him getting a rare would mean improving his tools or earning a few silvers, and is a good part of the motivation, even if the chances suck. lower the chance he can get this to way less and, you kill part of the hard work's potential gain. and having no other way to earn coin for him this would be a big blow (hard to buy tools without coins too. gifted him some stuff but cant pay him rare enchanted tools).

then why bother to pay for premium when a new account would have more chance to make the rare? raising skills would be pointless too, since i'm way above him and he could just ask me to imp the stuff he needs.

 

 

[jonsnow 40]

Well there's always design issues, such as alt spamming that need to be worked around.  i'm not suggesting it as is of course.

 

There really wouldn't be any reason to create alts, unless you're talking about getting alts to spam make generics, so you can then try to spam rares and there's really nothing stopping someone from doing that currently other than the insane grind required and the massive amount of clicking required to create things in mass.  You can get rares the same way right now.  Some limitations would be applied to the rare system, where rarity spamming wouldn't work on alts unless you leveled the skill to say 50, and then make 50 or 75 the minimum to be able to use the enhancement skill.  The percentage would be small enough that it would take a significant amount of time to get the rarest of rares, with the main purpose of this system to flush out the rares that are being stockpiled, and to increase their value again on the market.  The boon to the players would be rare would mean rare again, so they have something valuable...  a reason to keep trying to improve their gear.  To top it off, you increase the benefits of each rare tier (top being the heaviest) and you would have a reason to burn those precious low level rares.  There's a reason many games follow this type of principle, whether it's having to break down gear to craft better gear, or to have to use existing gear to upgrade other gear, in some way or another you need to garbage collect or the market gets flooded.

 

Which I don't really see a problem with, since the % of a rare generation would be to flush out resources, and flush out rares to create a demand for them again.

 

Really, you need a garbage collector.  As annoying as that is to you long time players, and as combative you are to new ideas the main issue is how easy it is to get resources and how many resources have been stockpiled that can easily inflate the market.

 

Before they did the epic transfer to freedom, I started a brand new character on Xanadu and man I was bored already because resources were so freaking easy to get.  Once I got one iron vein, I literally spent a week working on that ONE iron vein.  My counter would be this,  Make iron easier to find, but lesson the veins significantly so that a full day of mining the damn thing would result in zero left over.  This would require massive mines for extensive industry, instead of 3 or 4 veins at top quality.

The same thing happened with farming, once I hit about 20-30 farming I was rolling in so many veggies, I was just storing them instead of using them (I was only doing it to make food for me and a few friends).

 

I'm not talking about increasing tree growth to take months man...  I just mean from a balance perspective, balance it.  Right now it's so damn easy to get wood that you don't even need to bother replanting as a new player.  There should be a need for the damn forester skill!  I plant for fun, but it's not needed at all I have hundreds of logs in my bins.

 

The resource system needs balanced somehow, and the top tier gear needs to break somehow.  So either the rare system is changed, or you end up with gear breaking chances.  I personally hate having a % chance gear breaks, but it's probably the more logical step to take (forcing you to take 3-4 pickaxes with you mining, etc). 

I was just trying to suggest something other than that.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by jonsnow

[Ekib 183]

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

As annoying as that is to you long time players, and as combative you are to new ideas the main issue is how easy it is to get resources and how many resources have been stockpiled that can easily inflate the market.

 

look, many suggested changes are made by oldplayers who know the game and spend months or years in it.

yea we got craptons of ressources stored up for the most of us, and the reason is we worked and worked and worked. and older players also dont just stock up ressources. they also use them:

recently a few in our alliance worked to redo some old road mess into a proper highway. a section had to be surfacemined, and got us plenty of rock shards. those where stored, and a few tiles futher we had a canal planned, this meant a bridge. so those shards where used directly but also as bricks to replace the ones premade i used, the issue was if no bricks had been stored beforehand that meant needing to create bricks in a semi emergency, as one of our alliance member would have been locked at home with no more road to move around. and i didnt even mention the mortar.

 

we have premade materials and raw ressources for a reason, we learned to prepare for wurm, and making them harder to gather wont change much, just as frank said, the new players would suffer. the olds ones wont. because we learned wurm's lesson of preparing before jumping in. 

as for the 'tons of millions of ressources' that we got stored, sure some got them cause its their main source of work. they gather up raw mats and sell them. but most dont have dozens of crate racks filled with ressources waiting to be used up...

 

-making veins much smaller to make bigger mines for them would result in massive rocks storages. so not a good idea...would just transfer the overflow. also real world veins dont go empty in a few days of work, most for years. but they can mine down. wurm is linear in mines so gotot have more ressources in a tile. so far most high ql veins i found have low number of ores and the high number of ores are junk veins so its already like this...

-trees already take weeks/ months to grow. if you dont beleive me i had an oak tree taking about a year and a half before it turned very old. some are faster some are slower. this isnt minecraft fast. its already slow enough. people build tree farms to grow trees cause the growth is so slow its not possible to get much wood from only a couple trees repoping over and over (unless you use a fo priest, and will consume ressources as sacrifice material to regain favor, so its trading in 1 materail for an other basicly).

1 hour ago, jonsnow said:

The same thing happened with farming, once I hit about 20-30 farming I was rolling in so many veggies, I was just storing them instead of using them (I was only doing it to make food for me and a few friends).

-i got 60 farming, and i get 8-10 per tile i harvest. takes about a week to grow. my veggy number is droping to the point i had to import a few times (and i dont always replant), and i only feed myself and 1 friend. when you make large meals the veggies go fast: i make a meal with a meat 5 veggies 5 herbs and it last 1 maybe 2 days. not everyone got a priest alt with 100 farming. 

 

there's reasons ressources are easier to get now. you never knew golden valey as a barren dirt/grass field cause everyone cut all trees in sight and no one had a sickle to replant...

 

the reason people have tons of ressources is they spent many hours storing them. and top tier gear does break fast. you even had a ql 90 tool fall under 70?  even with my repair skill (almost 67) its still happening too fast. a couple K bricks and my chisel is good for a few hours back in the forge to reimp.

gear can break when enchanting already, runes can fail to attach resulting in their destruction, ###### happens. but a random 1 hit break while using or imping a tool is not good. even having shakes while suffering from withdrawal only gives 40 dmg.

you want wurm to be empty of all players? do this. cause no one will want to risk using a tool that is worth dozens of silver to risk it going away in an action. and like you said for mining, you do a lot of action so with the random number generator you are bound to lose your tool. some of those tools are people's way to earn their premium, or have been theirs for years, making sure to maintain and care for them. so its not gonna cut it. after all would you risk a tool worth a few silvers in order to earn a few coppers? i think not.

 

those ideas might work in an other game but not in wurm. the ressource system is good. you work, you gain skill, you gain ressources, you get better, and can get better ressources. you have too many? great for you! then diversify your actions. dont plant just one type of field, go mine something else. yes wurm could use for changes. but those would only hurt the playerbase. not strengthen it. you said yourself you grew bored of farming aroudn 20-30? this isnt a high skill. its barely above free players lvl. so making those ressources harder to gather would mean free players could only starve until they pay for food as well as premium...

 

 

 

[jonsnow 40]

The thing is the system DOES work.  That's why this game has 300 players active, and the games that use this suggestion have thousands.   It's annoying going from a system that isn't harsh, to a system that's harsh.  This is true.  Yet, there's a demand for it as the forum is littered with "economy" discussions that have gone without answer for probably close to a decade now!  The reality is, scarcity can be fun!  The excitement of finding a copper vein, knowing very well that your neighbors are in dire need of it and it's rare.  Those types of situations are great to have. 

 

You are right, the meta gamer of Wurm is doing mega-projects that use up quite a lot of resources.  My original suggestion is to change the rare system, not to add breaking items.  The breaking items idea was just mentioned as the probable outcome, since it's the simplest thing to implement with the more sweeping effect on the economy and would require very little amounts of code to probably implement.

 

The new development team that has taken over the past couple years is amazing.  I hope they find a solution to the problem, because the content they've been producing is so damn good!  It sucks to log in and no one is chatting.

 

For example, look at BDO arguably the most popular MMO right now...  Has one of the harshest, most ludicrous systems in place where you can lose an item worth hundreds of dollars just by trying to improve it.  People love it though, they hate it and love it and they keep playing... why?  When you score that rare item, and you know you just tripled it's value, you feel pretty good.  Wurm should never become this hardcore, but the system works to an extent and does filter out items on the market.

Edited June 21, 2018 by jonsnow

[MrGARY 12,421]

13 hours ago, jonsnow said:

inflate the market

 

I don't want my levels of gameplay enjoyment worsened to protect wallets

[FranktheTank 1,901]

12 hours ago, jonsnow said:

The thing is the system DOES work.  That's why this game has 300 players active, and the games that use this suggestion have thousands.   It's annoying going from a system that isn't harsh, to a system that's harsh.  This is true.  Yet, there's a demand for it as the forum is littered with "economy" discussions that have gone without answer for probably close to a decade now!  The reality is, scarcity can be fun!  The excitement of finding a copper vein, knowing very well that your neighbors are in dire need of it and it's rare.  Those types of situations are great to have. 

 

You are right, the meta gamer of Wurm is doing mega-projects that use up quite a lot of resources.  My original suggestion is to change the rare system, not to add breaking items.  The breaking items idea was just mentioned as the probable outcome, since it's the simplest thing to implement with the more sweeping effect on the economy and would require very little amounts of code to probably implement.

 

The new development team that has taken over the past couple years is amazing.  I hope they find a solution to the problem, because the content they've been producing is so damn good!  It sucks to log in and no one is chatting.

 

For example, look at BDO arguably the most popular MMO right now...  Has one of the harshest, most ludicrous systems in place where you can lose an item worth hundreds of dollars just by trying to improve it.  People love it though, they hate it and love it and they keep playing... why?  When you score that rare item, and you know you just tripled it's value, you feel pretty good.  Wurm should never become this hardcore, but the system works to an extent and does filter out items on the market.

 

No, scarcity will not work in a sandbox MMO because of the reasons I previously stated. You cannot deny individuals the base level of goods in a sandbox game for the sake of building an artificial economy. Like Gary said, the game should not be made less enjoyable for the sake of individuals making money.

 

Black Desert Online is a vastly different game than Wurm Online, firstly it is not nearly the depth of Sandbox as wurm as, the game is based on class creation and manipulation, the combat is vastly different, and the players is limited in their interactions in the world. The pay model is also the opposite of Wurm Online, in buying the game you own it forever. 

 

It is like comparing a Battleship to a wooded cabin. They only share in common the fact they both have a furnace.

Edited June 21, 2018 by FranktheTank

[Ekib 183]

9 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

the game should not be made less enjoyable for the sake of individuals making money.

could just point out the uniques for this, entire section of the game is locked to most players cause a few make hundreds of euros/dollars off them. this topic its a shitstorm in a can so better not open it and close it up fast. but it points how well a harder to get ressources system would work in wurm. 

 

9 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

 

It is like comparing a Battleship to a wooded cabin. They only share in common the fact they both have a furnace.

haha so true. and the furnace isnt even the same model/size. one's an artisanal one made of dirt and the other is industrial strength.

[Muse 2,232]

Wurm is complex - that's a large part of its appeal - and it is working on many different levels at the same time.  We often only see our own section of the economy, and our own warehouses filled with whatever resources we have to hand.

 

One man's glut is another man's dearth.

 

If you feel you have too many trees, think of the guy making dozens of coal-piles - he'll tell you he's always running out of logs.

 

The guy buying charcoal from him wishes the first guy would hurry up, so he can work on his metallurgy.

 

The alchemist and the leatherworker are both waiting for the ash, but so is some other guy for concrete. They've all got forges on the go, so they can clean out the ash while they wait - lucky there's enough trees nearby for fuel.

 

Know anyone piling thousands of wood scraps into their altars? or into the garbage for the personal goal?  Meanwhile an embarrassed winemaker is having to buy in wood scraps to seal the barrels to complete his personal goal of 5000 litres.

 

There are dye-makers out there struggling to produce the perfect black dye -  I can't begin to estimate how many iron lumps they burn through.

 

Everything is useful to someone at some point.  I can't think of a single thing in Wurm which wouldn't be wanted by someone somewhere,

 

- except perhaps ivy seedlings - but then... maybe the garbage guy would like those.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Muse

[armyskin 930]

You say the game has 300 players because of the market. I would say the state of the market is because of only 300 players.

[nicedreams 1,035]

You know that 300+ total players (/who) that are on every day are probably 40% alts.

[Wargasm 1,928]

3 hours ago, armyskin said:

You say the game has 300 players because of the market. I would say the state of the market is because of only 300 players.

 

Whether there are 300 players or 300 million, there will still be 10 people selling and 1 person buying.  

[jonsnow 40]

I look to a tale in the desert, which is a similar game that never has resource abundance.  As the skills get higher the costs get higher, break chances get higher, everything decays quickly and the world is constantly work.  I hate it.  

 

So after thinking about it, you are right that someone somewhere needs my junk.  I just don’t know it because there is no global auction house so I can see real time demand and prices.  Like in bro I can see thousands of onions so don’t produce onions.   

 

First thing ink we need is auction house