Sindusk

Wurm PvP - Why Players Don't PvP

Recommended Posts

At times, to take a break from PvE I get in PvP areas and try to not get killed and avoid fights but it is always (this is on Unlimited server, not WO), to learn about the place, spice things up and perhaps bump into some abandoned gear or items. Mostly it's avoid hostiles or fight if it comes down to that,  usually alone or occasionally in a very small group. But this way of playing doesn't reflect how generally PvP in wurm is being played.

 

However, Wurm being a game that gives you the freedom to choose as a sandbox, why fight someone if i don't have to? In this game a clash situation ends with one of the players losing their stuff, skill, affinity and respawn somewhere away and potentially make them waste hours and resources to get a new supply of items and travel. From my experience in the few encounters i had in PvP areas, i figure players with working brain cells would avoid fighting if not needed, for the best interest of both. Sometimes it's just someone who doesn't say a word and wants to chop your head off for the sake of it, in such case so be it and fight for your life.

 

I don't understand the point of PvP in this type of game, there is no ending to it, no Team A vs Team B, even the guy next to you could backstab and betray you at any point (unless its a known trusted friend), no match with a clear objective, it is a neverending conflict.

 

I wouldn't play full time PvP due to how the game, the combat system, and other factors are by design (takes time to make everything, build, travel, replenish gear after a death, build your skills, meditation, archery... then the not really PvP but more like Toon vs Toon/gear vs gear feeling with rng from hit and glance rates that i have when playing this type of games, i could go on for pages, but let's stop at that).

 

After all this talk perhaps it boils down to the game as a full PvP version not being all that fun for me

 

All other impressions and thoughts i have about it are not gonna help much.

Edited by MashHiven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing for me is that... I get the impression from what I read that you’re pretty much forced to spend money on premium to keep up with the skills in the first place, otherwise it seems like you don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell. And that’s just prem time. Then, you probably need good armor and weapons as well. That means either a lot more time, money, or both. And then you have the dubious pleasure of losing it all to someone who has a lot more money than you and bought a account with top fighting skill. I am not a sore loser, but I don’t have that kind of money and really, I think it should be more balanced. Like, have the free players simply gain skill slower so they can still get there but have to work harder. And make it easier to earn silver. That way, hard work has as much influence as money and free players could be as valuable a addition to any group as premium players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact you need to invest RL money in it should've also been a factor in that @Sindusk. As people have pointed out you kinda need drake or scale to actually be competitive in Pvp. And honestly, any game that simply enforces you to pay RL money to be competitive in pvp just gets the gacha-Diablo-Immortal mark of shame in the end.

 

Can easily put 10 players in plate armour vs 10 in drake / scale , with equal pvp skills and the scale / drake will dominate the plate every time due to simply moving faster dehorsed. 

 

There's also the fact that rare/supreme sets also give better survivability so that's another RL investment of money in pvp sets. 

 

There's a lot of reasons to avoid pvp in wurm but I think the biggest one is : it's really not worth the hassle anymore. There are way too many metas and once a group has become sufficiently powerful you can't really dislodge that group from the pvp food chain. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started wurm in beta, only one server pve + pve together but as far as I remembered only 2 factions white and dark and similar as now 90% mostly pve and 10% pvp. It was a factor maps only lasted for a limited time so none really got very strong. Everyone helped when the few pvp attacked .

 

I also think it a major factor that you have to invest rl money into it.

 

I am not against playing in a world where pvp is possible but I preffer it me taking the risk and my home is relative safe and my allies helps to protect against enemy's.

 

What I experienced in other pvp games is it fast ended in I could not trust my own alignment everyone abused the inexperienced and betrayed their own with no consequences.

 

With pmk it turns into everyone against everyone and no room for pve.

 

 

It is almost impossible balance and I have to see a game succeed

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I am just simply not interested because I don't like the thought of going there with no skill against people that have been there for so long with loads of skill. The fact that something you do can be easily wiped out by someone that doesn't like you or is just bored. I've heard enough stories from a couple people saying they would build like palisades on a semi large deed and then someone comes behind their back overnight to break all of them down, or just stuff being stolen, etc. I'll pass thanks, however I also don't diss the people who enjoy PvP; if that's your style and what you wanna do, then go for it! :) 

Edited by Shenzai
Reworded :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

simple equation of time to make, vs time to lose. 

Griefing while not online. 

Players who no life and are way stronger.

would always lose to groups.

 

also in today's day and age why would I play wurm to pvp?  The graphics suck, the combat is overly complicated under the hood, and ultimately just comes down to time spent playing.

I play this to chill and relax, build some stuff, role play, and go to bed peacefully at night.

 

When I want to cut some heads off I play chivalry 2.

 

This questions is dumb.  It's like going to The Sims 4 forum and asking why people don't want the game to have pvp.  It's The Sims.


Sorry to say it, but Wurm Online is The Sims Medieval.  Years ago when these graphics were state of the art, and MUDS were all the rage I wanted pvp in Wurm. 

Now?  I am old and just want to play The Sims with my village mates.

Edited by sweatygopher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot I made this thread 4 years ago. Money spent on gear/accounts is equivalent to what I phrased as "player strength" in the form, and I agree that it remains the largest issue for players attempting to participate in PvP for the first time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if i want to pvp i join a pvp game or a pvp server. with that said i 99% of the time dont play pvp style becuase i really dont get fullfilled by killing other players. there have been games where i have pvp'd  WoW SWG and SWTOR were games where i did pvp both in the open world and in pvp instances but the risks/rewards of pvp were acceptable there. Here in wurm i do not find the idea that everything i spend hundreds of hours working on could be destroyed overnight to be a risk that i want to take so  imo pvp in wurm is not something i will be participating in.

interestingly enough i have encountered a couple of situations on the northern servers when i first started that were close to pvp because of someone using his hellhorses to try and kill me, i did not find it fun in the least and it nearly made me stop playing the game. I literally had to turn KOS on my deed to kill a couple people that were interested in griefing me one day as well. so yeah if i was forced to pvp here in wurm i would not play the game

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My personal experience with PvP in Wurm is limited to Wurm Unlimited, where I played for some years on the various Wyvern servers (under a different name).

 

My professional experience with PvP in an MMO was when I was responsible for the various PvP types available in The Secret World, about a decade ago.

The closest thing to Wurm PvP was the Fusang battle zone, a persistent arena where players could capture spawn points to increase the rewards they earned (which were tokens).

Of the three PvP games available in TSW, Fusang was the closest to Wurm... and the hardest to balance. (The other types were instanced mini-battles between even numbers of players over a fixed period.)

 

What would I suggest for Wurm?

Personally I could put up with the prospect of uneven skills, and uneven player numbers, if I wasn't risking my equipment by fighting. And I could handle the problems of different players being online at different times, if I could be sure that I wasn't going to lose anything while I myself was not playing. That just doesn't sound like a game I'd want to play. If you want to beat me, do it while I'm awake.

 

So, these are the changes I'd propose in order to increase player interest in PvP.

Disclaimer: these are subjective. They are the things that would persuade me to give it a go.

  1. Reward players with something other than looted equipment. A player who goes from having one suit of armour to having two, gains less than a player loses going from one to zero — and the same goes for weapons. It's not a zero sum game.
    1. I'd seriously consider just letting player corpses work the way they do in PvE. Spend 3000 karma to summon yours back, OR have to fight your way to reclaim it. You can't say that there's no penalty for dying.
    2. If players gained "some kind of PvP points" for a kill, and lost some for dying, then those PvP points could be used to buy actual rewards. (Newbies could start with zero or a very small amount, so there wouldn't be much point in ganking them.)
  2. Create safe areas, such as spawn towns, that cannot be invaded by enemies.
    1. This would give players somewhere to log out without fear of losing stuff while they sleep. 
    2. There could be just one spawn town per kingdom, or multiple towns that can be captured by other kingdoms (except for the last one, because we don't actually want to eradicate our foes from the face of the earth).
    3. "Cannot be invaded" might mean gates that won't open and walls that can't be breached
    4. It might instead mean a portcullis that locks when an enemy enters the town, and spirit templars and tower guards spawning in to attack invaders. This would allow towns to be fortified by constructing towers and walls (which could be tough enough to make capturing a town a slow process, offsetting some of the problems of players in different time zones).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Sheffie said:

My personal experience with PvP in Wurm is limited to Wurm Unlimited, where I played for some years on the various Wyvern servers (under a different name).

 

My professional experience with PvP in an MMO was when I was responsible for the various PvP types available in The Secret World, about a decade ago.

The closest thing to Wurm PvP was the Fusang battle zone, a persistent arena where players could capture spawn points to increase the rewards they earned (which were tokens).

Of the three PvP games available in TSW, Fusang was the closest to Wurm... and the hardest to balance. (The other types were instanced mini-battles between even numbers of players over a fixed period.)

 

What would I suggest for Wurm?

Personally I could put up with the prospect of uneven skills, and uneven player numbers, if I wasn't risking my equipment by fighting. And I could handle the problems of different players being online at different times, if I could be sure that I wasn't going to lose anything while I myself was not playing. That just doesn't sound like a game I'd want to play. If you want to beat me, do it while I'm awake.

 

So, these are the changes I'd propose in order to increase player interest in PvP.

Disclaimer: these are subjective. They are the things that would persuade me to give it a go.

  1. Reward players with something other than looted equipment. A player who goes from having one suit of armour to having two, gains less than a player loses going from one to zero — and the same goes for weapons. It's not a zero sum game.
    1. I'd seriously consider just letting player corpses work the way they do in PvE. Spend 3000 karma to summon yours back, OR have to fight your way to reclaim it. You can't say that there's no penalty for dying.
    2. If players gained "some kind of PvP points" for a kill, and lost some for dying, then those PvP points could be used to buy actual rewards. (Newbies could start with zero or a very small amount, so there wouldn't be much point in ganking them.)
  2. Create safe areas, such as spawn towns, that cannot be invaded by enemies.
    1. This would give players somewhere to log out without fear of losing stuff while they sleep. 
    2. There could be just one spawn town per kingdom, or multiple towns that can be captured by other kingdoms (except for the last one, because we don't actually want to eradicate our foes from the face of the earth).
    3. "Cannot be invaded" might mean gates that won't open and walls that can't be breached
    4. It might instead mean a portcullis that locks when an enemy enters the town, and spirit templars and tower guards spawning in to attack invaders. This would allow towns to be fortified by constructing towers and walls (which could be tough enough to make capturing a town a slow process, offsetting some of the problems of players in different time zones).

Sounds very close to Defiance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Trash said:

Sounds very close to Defiance

Well Defiance do a lot of things right to make PvP more common and let you be more active. In special raid Window was a great addition so you don`t need to surveillance your Deed 24/7.

 

But I give up on active participation on PvP.

Bad combat System: lots of Imbalance, to low information so you never know if it was just a series of unlucky rolls or something you could optimize, on top of unintuitive skill expression.

Bad risk to reward structures: Beside the global objective, there is no reason to do PvP beside fun to do it if you not sure if you have a really high win chance. So "fun" would be the only reason to do PvP and well this lead to...

Bad PvP experience: basically your PvP experience, if you not in the one group that win the server thanks to the fact that the moment you start wining you starve the other side for resources and there for lower there chance of wining in PvP, will be bad.

Most of my in the first 6 months of the server: Abuse the max out of the system in ways it is probably not intended, try not to fight if it's not 3 vs 1, be a priest or die. Damn is PvP "fun" when you only can engage in PvP when you know you win or better to not leave the deed when the population is not dead like it's now.

So fare not a single game out there have make Hardcore PvP work and Wurm is no exception to it. There are a lot of the hardcore elements I like on the PvP server in spacial the Meta PvP is great but the directly PvP is so a horrible that it would be best for the game if it would not exist.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I like structured and balanced PVP, with little to no dead times and without huge penalties for defeat.

I got spoiled by my  first 10 years of online gaming on Daoc, who had probably the best pvp ever created in mmo history(apart from a little potential dead-times).

I love wurm for a lot of mechanics, but i would never consider seriously any pvp that isn't balanced and involves a lot of lost time for little reward.

I also think that it would be a bad idea to put great rewards for pvp, as it can become very niche-controlled with basically one faction getting all the rewards on top of the spoils.

So yeah, i think it's basically close to hopeless and would need a huge rework for me to even remotely consider getting into it.

Also toxicity is definitively a thing, but i'm not even blaming the toxic people, when it's clearly a game design that breeds and rewards toxic behaviours (as it does for uniques).

Edited by Davih
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/27/2022 at 2:16 PM, Davih said:

I like structured and balanced PVP, with little to no dead times and without huge penalties for defeat.

I got spoiled by my  first 10 years of online gaming on Daoc, who had probably the best pvp ever created in mmo history(apart from a little potential dead-times).

I love wurm for a lot of mechanics, but i would never consider seriously any pvp that isn't balanced and involves a lot of lost time for little reward.

I also think that it would be a bad idea to put great rewards for pvp, as it can become very niche-controlled with basically one faction getting all the rewards on top of the spoils.

So yeah, i think it's basically close to hopeless and would need a huge rework for me to even remotely consider getting into it.

Also toxicity is definitively a thing, but i'm not even blaming the toxic people, when it's clearly a game design that breeds and rewards toxic behaviours (as it does for uniques).

At this point wouldn’t you agree that the multiple failed attempts at reviving pvp, that the time would be just better spent focusing on improving pve? Why bother to continue dev time on pvp when you’ve got what 30 actual players?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, sweatygopher said:

At this point wouldn’t you agree that the multiple failed attempts at reviving pvp, that the time would be just better spent focusing on improving pve? Why bother to continue dev time on pvp when you’ve got what 30 actual players?

 

I was able to revitalize the Fusang persistent battle zone in the Secret World, despite being told quite clearly that there was no budget for art resources, or programmer time for changes to game flow or logic. So I made some carefully thought out changes to the scoring system. The point is, it's almost always possible to improve something with "cheap and cheerful" methods, if you're prepared to take time to understand what the problems are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You left out 'have no interest at all in pretending to fight other people.'

 

Your survey has the bias that assumes everyone would if any of the things you listed were different. But that isn't accurate.

 

 

I have zero interest in it. In this game or any other. No change made would change that.

 

Lots of people feel the same way.

 

Which is why no pure pvp MMO succeeds. Ever. 

 

And look at the reality.  Look at how many people 'say' they like the pvp servers but spend most of their time on pve servers. Or 'ragequit' regularly and go to pve servers - 'for a while.' Even THEY don't REALLY like it as an environment for gaming full time.

 

The 'pvp servers' are really just the equivalent of battlegrounds in other games.  I suspect treating them as such might get more activity.  Set, scheduled times and locations for battles with lockout outside those times and locations. Though even that won't get many more players pvping regular. But at least it will concentrate those that do to participate by knowing when and where to be.

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly main reason for me is that, at 97 fs, loosing 0.25 skill hurts insanely a lot. It's couple of months for me to get that back on pve every time I'm dumb enough to dye being afk. It's simply not something I consider worth risking... Yeah I know you can recover skill faster if you kill someone in PvP, but seriously do you think inexperienced PvP player can do that before he dies enough times to be 90 skill again... Simply don't wanna gamble with it, and loosing any skill and affiliaty really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually PVP'd in another MMO recently and it was sort of fun? Battleground/timed style, ability to resurrect right there, no skills lost, no corpse to find, no goods swiped. Nobody yelled at me for being terrible (I was) and got to do minor healing/support (also kind of fun). I'm not sure I'd do it again, but it was interesting and I wonder if Wurm would ever consider a server with more of that style, like Homestead mentioned. 

 

My only other experience was pretty unpleasant (in an otherwise awesome game), with people camping the cloner, yelling at you, and doing obscene stuff when you lost. From that experience and a lot I've heard from others, some PVP has sore losers and sore winners. Not fun at all. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

New world has an interesting read as to why they made pvp toggled.  They found majority of players were fine but that 1% could really make players life hell by griefing.  They found there was always one high level lingering around low level areas prohibiting them from playing.  
 

This is also my experience with open world pvp in about 15 or so mmorpgs in my lifetime.  Kingdom games are worst because you have something to lose and a Zerg almost always forms as people want to stop getting bullied and want access to the good areas etc.

 

in Wurm I know there’s people who literally didn’t log off the first week of steam launch lol. I knew I had no chance to compete this isn’t a skill based game.

 

that said pvp in building games almost always fails on an mmorpg setting because of time to create vs destroy being so drastic.

With small communities like this you’re often fighting your friend so you don’t want to actually destroy his stuff and at that point it’s just a friendly duel.  If you take it seriously and destroy each other’s stuff then one side loses and usually quits because of time to recover.

 

I think it’s really hard for small studios to balance pvp regardless.  It becomes too much headache and players will find too many ways to destroy other peoples fun.  Griefing is a real problem.  It only takes one person on a game this small too.

Edited by sweatygopher
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Far too many Cringelords in pvp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pvp just doesn't fit wurm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use to pvp alot back in those days in vary games such as Darkfall, Mortal Online, World of Warcraft, etc. I dont think i can handle pvp anymore, just too much grief and stress, beside doc told me to take it easy and try keep the blood pressure down lol.

 

I have been hearing alot of negative comments from players that has been in pvp and most of them told me, just isnt worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/30/2022 at 4:11 PM, kochinac said:

but seriously do you think inexperienced PvP player can do that before he dies enough times to be 90 skill again...

yes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I don't like pvp games. If I can choose, its always PVE. But, Wurm is different. If you have a nice group of people on a PVP server, you can have impalongs every day. You don't feel lonely. There's always this weird feeling behind your neck when you go off deed or see a white name in local. All this makes me want to play on a pvp server. But only Epic. Because on Epic rebuilding your destroyed deed is quicker than destroying it. Remaking your gear, breeding horses is faster. All of this makes PVP more fun and accessible. That's why only Epic is good for pvp. (for me). The only reason I don't play on PVP server is, because there's not many people

Edited by Ryaanna
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not a big fan of open world pvp. I enjoy battle grounds or pvp with a purpose.

 

For wurm the skill loss and affinity loss definitely add to my aversion.

 

Plus there is no point as far as I know. Killing and ganking just cause never appealed to me.

 

Finally, this will get me backlash. But wurm combat is skillless on the player side. You have better skill levels and gear, you win. 

 

Yes there are some special moves but mostly you just auto attack. A priest has a bit more to it probably. But just circling around waiting for auto attacks to hit or miss sounds boring.

 

I'm sure someone will have that knowing how to grind up skills or far equipment is the skill but still sounds boring to me.

 

Again, I'm generally not a big paper. Not in my pve games.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I'd chime in as someone who has recently started to play on defiance a little.

My background: 

I've played wurm on and off before but never really committed to the game as much as I have since the release of NFI.

I played on SFI, and on epic but was never active in pvp much.

I played on challenge and was very active in pvp there.

I've played a lot of EVE Online, ran a pvp wormhole corp for 4 years.

I like playing pvp based games but more often matchmaking than mmos, often due to barriers of entry.

 

 

NFI:

I dived into NFI at launch feeling the itch to play wurm again. I'm not the best grinder but know where to look to read about things and spend a reasonable amount of time in game. At the start of NFI I was initially unsure if I should try playing on defiance but I joined a community deed on Harmony and started grinding there since I had people to chat with. I'd read a fair bit about how priests worked and so I got started on priest and weaponsmithing grind, from there I quickly started playing as a merchant. I have never been the best at anything (maybe the highest channelling, actively selling fo priest at one point)  but I got my skills fairly high and prices low and I quite enjoyed doing it. Eventually I burnt out  a bit and a few friends left after bouncing around deeds for a while, I got back to grinding skills a bit over trying to sell actively and took the game at a slow pace again.

 

Defiance:

I was chatting with someone from defiance and they persuaded me to give it a go, I didn't have great pvp skills but thought I'm looking for something more to do so eventually gave it a go.

 

The following thoughts are from someone who is still fairly new to pvp and defiance so take everything with a pinch of salt.

 

The first thing that delayed me going over is the slightly daunting task of knowing what I'm in for. There is no way to sugar coat it, there are significant barriers to pvp in wurm. From body stats, weapon skills, shield skill, archery, restarting my faith grind it did seem like a bit much so I hesitated for a while. Now that I've got started I do have renewed motivation to grind, and have mostly got past the feeling of being overwhelmed by what I need to grind, and now my faith is going up the high channelling is useful.

 

The second hesitation was about feeling like a burden. This is not really a thing once you join a group since the community spirit seems pretty strong within kingdoms, at  least within mine but I think a lot of wurm players, especially freedom players like to be self sufficient and there are a lot of skills I'd need if I were to provide for myself (and I did already have 90+ ws and pas before heading to defiance).

 

Overall I've enjoyed it so far, the gap between me and others is quite large still but that's to be expected given the lack of time I'd put into fighting in the past.

 

I'm still not sure I like wurm's approach to balance where account matters far more than meaningful choices around gear, there seem to be too many variables and I like min maxing so having to figure out numbers is not fun to me. I was much more of a fan of eve's style where the strength of an account could be overcome using counters (sometimes), and you really felt your gear mattered. I'm not saying a 1 day old account should beat accounts with years of skilling but if they could beat me naked with a belaying pin, irrelevant of what I have or do then something feels off. I'm obviously not in a position where I can comment on the effect of skill in pvp.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now