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Sindusk

Wurm PvP - Why Players Don't PvP

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I'd like to know from players who do not participate in PvP: Why not? I've created this extremely short google form to fill out to try and gather data.

 

Form: https://goo.gl/forms/29m24eZs5Tm5bUkv1

 

Results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf2qsN2s3ZpVOiBU2wSnCP-MClxw4m3ZB46cDm8IQfzcNwQHQ/viewanalytics

 

Feel free to fill out the form even if you play on a PvP server.

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I don't participate in pvp often because there is not really a way to supply factions who are self sufficient and no way to resell loot for the same reasons.

 

I would be far more interested if it were a potentially profitable for small groups looking to make money through ambushes and for hire attacks. 

 

 

Of course for all of this to work even with a system in place...you still need population.

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Open World, Full Loot PVP (OWFL) is always a selfish, gank-fest no matter which game you look at that offers it.  In my opinion, OWFL does not belong in the MMORPG genre.  It should remain in the FPS and FPS hybrid realms.  With respect to Wurm, the problem with pvp is that nothing, and I mean nothing, can prevent someone with an attitude or agenda from demolishing months of your invested time and energy building a "safe" haven - which can never be made safe or never be made defensible.  And this is a catch-22 because if the devs make deeds safer, the raiders get mad.  If they make them less safe, the defenders get mad.  Personally, I think pvp should not be about loot.  It should be about faction warfare and control, with acquired bonuses as a result of your success.  Plus, and I think more importantly, there should be some level of enforced chivalry.  When you make pvp all about loot, people are going to get frustrated and quit.  Especially since the gear they are wearing likely cost them real-life money.  Forget that.  I am not paying hundreds of dollars for good gear only to have a couple of gankers with an attitude killing it off me.  Who wants that?  This brings me to my final point that OWFL breeds toxicity.  It is amazing how greedy and brutal human beings can be when they play in a game where anything goes.  In that environment, the trend is ALWAYS negative, NEVER positive.  The attitudes get pathetic and there is no sense of morality or any such thing.  You can feel this attitude of, "I have a right to kill you and take everything you care about, and level your home to the ground.  Why?  Oh, because its a game, and you are the enemy, and I don't give a hoot."  If you read this and think, " Boy, this guy is an idiot," well, that's fine.  You probably never will understand what I am trying to describe, so it doesn't matter to me.  But probably some of you know what I am talking about and recognize this as a problem.  Cooperative, group (kingdom) survival against an equally passionate enemy is what pvp should be about.  Not this personal agenda of greed and self-absorption that we see all too often.  Remove the game mechanics that foster greed and Wurm pvp might become more interesting to the players. 

 

My 2c.

Edited by Eyesgood
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Probably best as well that current pvpers do not fill out the forms to keep best results.

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6 minutes ago, Eyesgood said:

Open World, Full Loot PVP (OWFL) is always a selfish, gank-fest no matter which game you look at that offers it.  In my opinion, OWFL does not belong in the MMORPG genre.  It should remain in the FPS and FPS hybrid realms.  With respect to Wurm, the problem with pvp is that nothing, and I mean nothing, can prevent someone with an attitude or agenda from demolishing months of your invested time and energy building a "safe" haven - which can never be made safe or never be made defensible.  And this is a catch-22 because if the devs make deeds safer, the raiders get mad.  If they make them less safe, the defenders get mad.  Personally, I think pvp should not be about loot.  It should be about faction warfare and control, with acquired bonuses as a result of your success.  Plus, and I think more importantly, there should be some level of enforced chivalry.  When you make pvp all about loot, people are going to get frustrated and quit.  Especially since the gear they are wearing likely cost them real-life money.  Forget that.  I am not paying hundreds of dollars for good gear only to have a couple of gankers with an attitude killing it off me.  Who wants that?  This brings me to my final point that OWFL breeds toxicity.  It is amazing how greedy and brutal human beings can be when they play in a game where anything goes.  In that environment, the trend is ALWAYS negative, NEVER positive.  The attitudes get pathetic and there is no sense of morality or any such thing.  You can feel this attitude of, "I have a right to kill you and take everything you care about, and level your home to the ground.  Why?  Oh, because its a game, and you are the enemy, and I don't give a hoot."  If you read this and think, " Boy, this guy is an idiot," well, that's fine.  You probably never will understand what I am trying to describe, so it doesn't matter to me.  But probably some of you know what I am talking about and recognize this as a problem.  Cooperative, group (kingdom) survival against an equally passionate enemy is what pvp should be about.  Not this personal agenda of greed and self-absorption that we see all too often.  Remove the game mechanics that foster greed and Wurm pvp might become more interesting to the players. 

 

My 2c.

Although i agree with some parts of this, i think alot of freedomers who have not been to chaos or epic (although not sure if you are one of them) think that you are buying all the gear. I went chaos with a plate set and one LT weapon, in 6 months, i had MM weapons, drake set and more rares and goodies then i needed and it costed me the prem time i put into the account + the time i used to play the game, but that is it. I feel so often there is this image that crossing the border to Chaos and Epic requiers you big money but the reality imo is different. Yes, some people who have big wallets buy stuff, yes people spend money on supremes/rares to give them better chances, but it is not a MUST! I have played quite a few MMORPG and for me the best ones are the ones with OWFL. Nothing else really gives that kick then going out there and knowing you could lose all. Additionally wurm has 50% chance to keep the items, meaning its not full OWFL. I play this game called rust, althought big part of the community is toxic it is the purest form of OWFL which makes the game so great. These kind of risks are risks that make people bond together and make communities you cannot imaging. Good example is the former EMR, who moved to Exodus. We are 60+ members and still as a community which we developed in chaos to protect ourselves and play as a team. 2 years later and we are still a team, we are still a community and even tho we are safe, we still feel that the guy next to me have my back. This is what these OWFL and the chance to lose it all gives. The realistic fear which bonds us sooo deeply. 

My 2 cents 

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3 minutes ago, Wulfgarr said:

Although i agree with some parts of this, i think alot of freedomers who have not been to chaos or epic (although not sure if you are one of them) think that you are buying all the gear. I went chaos with a plate set and one LT weapon, in 6 months, i had MM weapons, drake set and more rares and goodies then i needed and it costed me the prem time i put into the account + the time i used to play the game, but that is it. I feel so often there is this image that crossing the border to Chaos and Epic requiers you big money but the reality imo is different. Yes, some people who have big wallets buy stuff, yes people spend money on supremes/rares to give them better chances, but it is not a MUST! I have played quite a few MMORPG and for me the best ones are the ones with OWFL. Nothing else really gives that kick then going out there and knowing you could lose all. Additionally wurm has 50% chance to keep the items, meaning its not full OWFL. I play this game called rust, althought big part of the community is toxic it is the purest form of OWFL which makes the game so great. These kind of risks are risks that make people bond together and make communities you cannot imaging. Good example is the former EMR, who moved to Exodus. We are 60+ members and still as a community which we developed in chaos to protect ourselves and play as a team. 2 years later and we are still a team, we are still a community and even tho we are safe, we still feel that the guy next to me have my back. This is what these OWFL and the chance to lose it all gives. The realistic fear which bonds us sooo deeply. 

My 2 cents 

Excellent counter perspective.  Thanks.

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Looking at the results... I feel like the survey doesn't turn out to be constructive. The fact that the majority of people think that a toxic pvp community is the biggest issue, seems more like a "I don't like PvP in general" type of feel. Toxic PvP is in almost every pvp game unless you find a private game. If the survey is supposed to find information that would benefit wurm pvp then shouldn't you target people who are interested in PvP games to begin with?

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"months building a safe haven" 

In regards to that part,


You just have to accept day 1 there is no such thing as a safe haven, numbers are the only thing that can Support that.
But you also don't have to spend months building anything, with a week worth of work a 5-7 man group could easily build something that's annoying/risky to take out and not worth the effort/easy to repair. 
 

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51 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

Looking at the results... I feel like the survey doesn't turn out to be constructive. The fact that the majority of people think that a toxic pvp community is the biggest issue, seems more like a "I don't like PvP in general" type of feel. Toxic PvP is in almost every pvp game unless you find a private game. If the survey is supposed to find information that would benefit wurm pvp then shouldn't you target people who are interested in PvP games to begin with?

If i find a community generally unpleasant and toxic i'm not interested in sticking with the game for too long, i find it a waste of time and energy to stay in such environment either if it is pve or pvp. Part of reason of why i tried FF14 (which is mostly pve) and didn't like it along other reasons is exactly that i didn't like the overall community.

 

You can have some fun with certain pvp games while on others you always finish the game more irritated than when you started, in such case that's a no for me.

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58 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

Looking at the results... I feel like the survey doesn't turn out to be constructive. The fact that the majority of people think that a toxic pvp community is the biggest issue, seems more like a "I don't like PvP in general" type of feel. Toxic PvP is in almost every pvp game unless you find a private game. If the survey is supposed to find information that would benefit wurm pvp then shouldn't you target people who are interested in PvP games to begin with?

Much of what I personally consider to have been benevolent blood has long left the game, there has been little player refreshment into this mix (new players) and the same base is swirling around the pool holding grudges from past events. The toxic sludge pit is only intensified by the often high cost of time, supply, and energy that pvp demands. Because as I said last year, PvP is not for the faint of heart, it has been and always will be the "End Game" and only some of the strongest personalities can handle the pit. This merging of ego's often leads to poor results.

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I agree with the OWFL system even though I've lost more than I've gained from it as it helps give the combat more meaning and thus causes a lot more adrenaline to flow.

 

I also disagree with it because of the effort required from someone, somewhere to create that loot to drop, it is significant. If it took an hour or two to gear up acceptably and get into the fight then no problem but a full quality armour set, shield, weapons takes how long? especially as things like weapon skill gain is so relatively slow.  Add other bits like enchants or runes and ouch.... The more committed someone is to try and compete at the high end of PvP, the greater the sheer number of hours that has been invested in their gear.

 

From a couple of comments above, the PvP is not limited to the map, the objectives and the battles, over the years there has been full on psychological warfare, disinformation, misinformation, outright lies aimed from all sides, sometimes used to try to influence  the game staff. This was something I always found distasteful in the extreme and hats off to the GMS for even considering dealing with it. It was one of the things that contributed to me walking away from chaos.

 

Wurm has always been big on time commitment and its PvP is no different, this makes a jump in casual experience pretty much non-existent. Even if you buy some cheap "good enough" gear and hope to improve it through acquisitions by your group winning engagements, its still incredibly slow or was when I last did it. Travelling, sieges and such are not a 30 minute dip in and have fun but back to being that big commitment.

 

TL;DR 

most games enable jump in, fight, have fun, be done in under 30 minutes, rinse ,repeat. Wurm, 100.00% the opposite.

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2 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Looking at the results... I feel like the survey doesn't turn out to be constructive. The fact that the majority of people think that a toxic pvp community is the biggest issue, seems more like a "I don't like PvP in general" type of feel. Toxic PvP is in almost every pvp game unless you find a private game. If the survey is supposed to find information that would benefit wurm pvp then shouldn't you target people who are interested in PvP games to begin with?

You're not wrong. The results aren't going to paint a night and day picture of where the issues lie, but you can at least get a feel of where the general perception of PvP is. For example, as of writing this, the results of "no issue" votes in order from least votes to most:

  • 8 - PvP Community is Toxic
  • 15 - Players are too strong
  • 17 - PvP isn't rewarding enough
  • 17 - Combat is too random
  • 19 - Kingdom's too established

From those results we can kind of gather that most players don't mind losing gear, skill, and affinity from PvP. The difference in power and the lack of rewards for trying to stand up to it seem to be the issues most people seem to vote as an issue or severe issue.

 

One of the most valuable parts of the results, however, is the second part. Which reason is most significant. Again, from time of writing:

  • 10 - PvP is Toxic
  • 5 - PvP Player Strength
  • 5 - Maps Too Established
  • 5 - Gear Loss
  • 4 - Combat Randomness
  • 3 - Skill Loss

From here we can see that the results above are somewhat reinforced, but we also see a polarizing effect. While the least amount of players don't mind losing gear/skills, there is a minority of players who consider it to be the most detrimental reason as to why they don't want to PvP.

 

The final two options were interest in hybrids. Taking PvP to the PvE servers through events, or taking PvE to the PvP servers through safety of deeds. That interest seems relatively split, and nothing of value can be gained from them.

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For me, Wurm PvP is logistically difficult. While I can do most other things in Wurm periodically, without needing to commit long, uninterrupted segments of time, PvP is the opposite, and I rarely have that much time to give Wurm.

 

Gearing up is the next big thing. Even with the skill (99+) and material to replace gear, imping sucks. Not because of the time, but because of the frustration of random failures. Enchanting is the same way: a big mess of repeating the same actions hoping for different outcomes. Those two systems are essential, but for me horribly un-fun. :( (And I doubt I'm unique.)

 

In my own mind, the replacement cost of gear is the misery I'll have to endure to re-imp/enchant a set, and rarely is that worth the risk.

 

Take out imping failures, and I know I would immediately have fun imping, because that's exactly what happened for me when the same kind of change was made to the Epic skilling system. For Epic at least, failure-free imping would just mean faster imping, and I can't see that as a bad thing.

 

One last thing: I played Freedom and was bored, not just by the slow grind, but because in a world where people can do far less to hurt you, people being nice also means much less. When someone does a favor where they -could- have hurt you, it means more.
 

Edited by Roccandil

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Biggest problem on Chaos i would say is the drake/scale that is at least 90 euros and above. Unless you have a decent sized group that is experienced enough it is really hard cause you will be penalized by using plate while being dehorsed. Right now it is more or less wardeeds as close as you can get to your enemies that is the game and it is boring in the longrun but really the only "effective" method at this point unless you want to risk it all. And people are not to willing of risking 100+ euros worth of gear.  

On Epic the biggest problem is the map, it is useless for pvp when there is a lot of people playing there.

 

I think by adding the code that is on Epic now a lot would change, at the same time i think moonmetals should be removed as well. It just creates more stuff that people "need" to pvp. Keep the drake and scale but remove MM and add the Epic code to armours. Would make a bigger market for people on freedom that are into crafting and it would not have to cost 90 euros to buy armour to be useful in pvp on foot.


 

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I'll try to keep this short.  I don't pvp in wurm, nor will I ever.  I rarely pvp in any game and have only played one game where I found the pvp to actually be fun. That game had no looting and no pvp penalties. So take this with a grain of salt, as my opinion is biased against full loot. 

 

My grandson, though, enjoys pvp in most games, as do his friends.  They won't touch this game.  When I suggested they take a look at it a few years back, they did, and actually laughed about it.  It would be better called Burglary Online, or Home Invasion Online.

 

Wurm is a niche game. It's slow by design. It takes time investment to develop a character, build up a deed, etc.  In my opinion, wurm (WO) pvp is a niche within a niche. 

 

So to my mind it's a number of things that individually can be defended, and usually are defended vehemently on these forums, but combined make wurm pvp a no go for myself and others I know in RL and on line.

 

1) Super slooooooow mo for everything.....combined with

2) Open world, full loot

3) Real world cash value of that loot and "rewards" along with the time investment.

4) High end accounts being passed around like street corner hookers and never leaving the game.  Again, for real world cash, so pay-to-win no matter how you try to justify it.

5) The disparity between time & money to "get good," and/or build anything worthwhile, and the ability to lose it.

 

Also, I believe that the average person who is attracted to a game of this type, wants to feel a sense of accomplishment from building a deed, getting some really nice armor/weapons, or nice things for their deed, etc, etc, etc. I think that's a large part of the reason that even on pve servers, people spread out and want their own deeds, where they make the decisions, build the deed, decorate, etc.  Not many want to be a "villager" and subject to the whims of someone else.   Why should they?  

 

So, likewise with pvp.  I know there are exceptions, but I believe the "average" player simply doesn't want to be subject to the "big dogs" in whichever kingdom they might choose, which in turn may or may not be subject to those of other kingdoms who can at any time destroy everything, whether you're on line or not.  And then anything they do, helping with building up the deed, contributing their time and sometimes their money, everything can be destroyed in a proportionately short time along with losing their disposable armor and weapons they probably didn't want to wear in the first place (instead of maybe some nice dragon scale, lol), and probably didn't have any pvp fun on top of it.

 

And as someone else mentioned, when real world cash is involved, anything goes up to and at times including internal treachery.

 

I did notice that a couple of the wu servers have some innovative ideas for pvp and maybe some of those ideas will eventually trickle over and help to revive wo pvp.  But quite honestly, I believe that as long as the pvp community here keeps insisting on no-change, while at the same time demanding change and revitalization, it will continue on it's current trend.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Amadee
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I don't PvP on this, or any other, game because that's not what I play games for. I play Wurm for the farming, building and mining aspects. I have a 70+ fighting skill from fighting the random monsters I run across. Frankly, though, I refuse to PvP because I have neither the time, equipment or want to try and beat those whose are experts at it. I have nothing against those who do PvP but getting killed and losing all my equipment would make me quit playing. I've rage quit before when monsters have killed me and I couldn't recover my equipment. It makes a game seriously unfun for me to have to start over when I don't have the skills to make high quality equipment and the grind to get there (or money to buy new) is not where I want to spend my time.

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I personally like a since of realism in the games that I play and don't mind pvp and full loot, because I feel that it add to that. The main reason I have not when to nor start on a pvp server on wurm is the skill gap between new/recently started accounts and one have been around for years. If it was set up with a curve to help fresh players close that gap easier/faster I think that would help increase the interest of pvp.

 

I think that one day I may try pvp, but with the way it is now that would be probably at least after a year of playing to increase my skills. I am sure there are large communities on the pvp server in which you could stay safe in the village and not have to engage in pvp, but for that you might as well just play pve.

Edited by Badrad

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It's a good survey, stick it up ingame and get the real results ;)

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The "toxic" aspect may need a poll of its own, as in "what do you mean by toxic?".

The following are possibilities I'm guessing at, in no particular order, with no assertion of them being truth or assumption.

Things it may mean:

-  The louder people.

-  The taking of battlefield events to the personal realm.

-  The griefing aspect (looted the place, now RAZE IT).

-  The paranoia around spies/alts when it comes to greeting a new player.

-  The looting for the sake of bankrupting someone more than acquiring useful resources.

-  The oft-mentioned nepotism between staff and certain factions.

-  The constant politics over leadership of a group.

 

Said poll would need to allow for more than one reply.  I'll keep my choices to myself for the sake of keeping the controversy down.

 

On that note, bear in mind that in the much, much wider world of gaming, PvP in games is generally considered somewhat toxic to begin with, and some folks will limit their PvP as a whole based on that... so don't take it too personally.  I for one keep my PvP to first person shooters and more recently, GTA Online (in which you're kinda supposed to be toxic).... which oddly enough is relatively calm compared to what one would expect.

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For me, PVP is just dull and annoying, in any game. I don't play games to spat with other players, much less in a personal way, or to have a schedule or instructions from a leader. I'm likely not the only one who wants Wurm to be a refuge, not the time to get angry and frustrated (except at trolls and large crates). I do wish the PVP crowd would stop insisting there's a secret code to make the rest of us like it.  Some of us just don't. 

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PVP are fun, but with hundrets of rules, bugs and great lags thats only frustated ?

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My issue is not with PvP or "toxicity" in it, but with the type of PvP, which was referred to as OWFL here.

Basically, you can't "put the game down".

 

I remember vividly playing Rust and literally worrying that some russians will blow up my home in the middle of the night, because that regularly happened. It was pure stress and made me stop after a few days.

 

I concede that Wurm isn't 100% like that. There's less activity overall, there are more open communities to join because as it was said, security only comes with numbers. But the fact remains that things can go down south overnight and the sour aftertaste of Rust wells just thinking about that concept.

 

I plan to visit Chaos some day and make myself useful as a backline crafter for whatever Kingdom will have a casual supporter and I may be taught a lesson of what it's really like, but just in pure principle I cannot see myself truly committing to such a world for good. If a game gives me the slightest bit of background anxiety while I'm not even online, it's not worth it - and clearly not healthy - to me.

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The only two games that I did any pvp on were Ultima Online and WoW. In Ultima Online it was because I would go to Felucca to place and sell houses. In WoW it was for the Epic gear that could be purchased for pvp points (or whatever that was called). Never had the least interest in fighting other players for what I can only imagine is some sort of feeling of superiority and domination. Once I obtained the in game coin (UO) or gear (WoW) I was off to do what I enjoyed within the main PvE part of the game.

 

So in Wurm pvp is totally worthless to me *personally. Add in the skill loss, item loss (or even remove those) and the value of it becomes non-existent *personally. If others enjoy it for whatever reasons it is neither here nor there to me as well. There are some, perhaps even most, who have no interest in pvp and you will never reach them. They are lost causes for your questions, adjustments, modifications and improvements. So just give it up on them and focus upon those who might be influenced by your survey form results, which by the way I didn't bother reading. No offense...

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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5 minutes ago, Ayes said:

The only two games that I did any pvp on were Ultima Online and WoW. In Ultima Online it was because I would go to Felucca to place and sell houses. In WoW it was for the Epic gear that could be purchased for pvp points (or whatever that was called). Never had the least interest in fighting other players for what I can only imagine is some sort of feeling of superiority and domination. Once I obtained the in game coin (UO) or gear (WoW) I was off to do what I enjoyed within the main PvE part of the game.

 

So in Wurm pvp is totally worthless to me *personally. Add in the skill loss, item loss (or even remove those) and the value of it becomes non-existent *personally. If others enjoy it for whatever reasons it is neither here nor there to me as well. There are some, perhaps even most, who have no interest in pvp and you will never reach them. They are lost causes for your questions, adjustments, modifications and improvements. So just give it up on them and focus upon those who might be influenced by your survey form results, which by the way I didn't bother reading. No offense...

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

Your response lacks anything constructive, serves as a piece of perpetual loathing for the pvp community, strokes your own ego, and only serves to negatively impact both the views of pve players to pvp players and vise versa.

 

So I only have one thing to say for a post like this,

 

You fit right in to the pvp community!

Edited by FranktheTank
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I have nevsr done.pvp in any game really. I personally cant find the allure to it. Its nothing to do with people or drama or what have you. Its just the feeling of not being good enough. I dont like competition. To some thats all there is to it.

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