FranktheTank

Epic, Complete 180°

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Fooligun said:

I'd love to see a very simple version of the game for PVP, that is easy for players to get into and involved in and this would be that mode.

 

 

I would argue about either removing drake/scale or making unique spawns abundant enough that they are not such an expensive commodity. The emphasis being on armour variety such as chain, plate, studded leather and weapons from mauls to swords enabling different play styles.

The Epic Armor changes do provide what you are looking for in terms of balance. Drake and Scale are still the best, but not vastly so on Epic. Same goes for all the armor types, even cloth is somewhat viable.

Edited by FranktheTank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I quite rarely agree with Epic ideas. Usually they're just the same old stuff... WIPE IT, REDO IT, DO THIS, DO THAT. 

However, this is a very sensible suggestion to me as someone who plays on both clusters. Big +1 from me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Prophetears said:

I really like this idea, but, good luck getting them to do anything remotely related to PvP.

 

I'm fairly certain they didn't even merge the servers until Rolf told them to after he was made aware via email of how far the population dropped and he actually realized his livelihood was genuinely affected. Was very odd how that happened just a little bit after they were sent.

 

If you want any traction, email him personally.

 

No HOTA either please, I want to be actually conquering the map again, and every map designed with HOTA in mind is a complete and utter failure.

 

 

I can also personally attest if this was implemented, myself and ~10-15 others would return with active subscriptions of multiple characters

I never really participated in the old "email rolf to get things changed" style of gameplay typically seen from certain bed bannered fellows. If you know anything about that front I would greatly appreciate an ambassador to Rolf, I doubt he would listen to me considering my past as a "disruptive player"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to the OP's post.  Except, the whole default God/Religion still needs a rework,spells to work, spell visualizations and balancing.  I have yet to see any discussion or action on this matter in something like a year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New Question for OP Change:

 

Since moon metals would not be included on this server, and the goal is to strive for a legacy type server. What would therefore be the stance on HOTA as a whole? Some may say this as a thing to fight over, but with no moon metal you would have to completely revamp the reward system entirely. No one wants to fight for hota statues and lose a huge chunk of land in the middle of the map, so I would assume hota is a no go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this idea, personally as someone who has only ever played for a few hours at a time on Epic, this may give me a reason to want to change that.

I feel like new and old players alike would benefit from this change, especially now that Epic is open to skill-transfers.

 

As long as we keep the skill transfers to and from Freedom this is a resounding +1 to me.

On opinion for HOTA, I do think it adds some necessary opportunity for conflict, but such a thing definitely should not come without a reward, so yes some thought is required as to what would be acceptable in place of moonmetals. HOTA statues have always been a worthless prize IMO.

A map with no HOTA sort of limits your play style to land grabbing. IMO there should be a reason to engage in an open fight every once in a while. Otherwise all fight occur at deeds and we all know that minehopping 100% of the time gets very stale after a while.

 

Keeping everything as simple as possible you could do something such as the winning kingdom getting ~5 silver they can distrib for kingdom funds, deed upkeep, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make Elevation a challenge server or at least reset the damn thing every year or so to keep things fresh.

 

Keep HOTA since it's the only thing that has a focus and reward in the game.  It's something to do instead of just raw pvp all the time and raiding deeds.  If you are competitive....you'll want to keep HOTA even if you can't do it right now.  It's a goal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I personally do not like about HOTA is the fact it is completely inorganic, it is a forced mechanism, and pvp was fine (arguably better) before it existed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has a crazy amount of good reception for a pvp suggestion. Really hope the devs are listening

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bump for support. This is the way Wurm is meant to be played. Simple kingdom vs kingdom PvP with homeservers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This will be the most simple, yet effective way to bring about a much demanded change, that will increase player count. I feel this is a universally acceptable and unique opportunity, that everyone from the hardcore pvp groups, to the person on freedom who wants to dabble could find entertaining. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with suggestion posts that everyone agrees with is that nobody posts in them like they do controversial ones. :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the epic map was remade to be either a single PVP map or PVP map with smaller home servers around in this style. I would likely port my character over to partake in base kingdom PVP. Grudges are great for encouraging play in PVP afterall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

The problem with suggestion posts that everyone agrees with is that nobody posts in them like they do controversial ones. :( 

 

All right, I'll bite. :P Let's see if I can find something to disagree with.

 

So, the objections to moonmetal. Why is MM an issue such that everyone wants to drop it? Armor? With the new armor changes, light armor is very useful (if not becoming meta), and using MM for armor seems less desirable. For myself, I'm planning to save MM for weapons.

 

I suppose the MM weapon buffs could be an issue, but MM represents more gameplay/world diversity, and I'd hate to see it dropped. Rather, why not make it more acquirable?

 

Moonmetal veins on the central islands could do that, while providing a rare resource to fight over (and I'd like to see more fighting over resources). MM prospecting expeditions could generate all sorts of encounter PvP!

 

I'm sure all veins would be mined out as quickly as possible, but resetting the central island on a schedule would fix that, and we could even have the occasional event to convert random rock tiles to MM. (I'd prefer that to HOTA, to be honest.)

 

Quick, everyone tell me why I'm wrong! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd play again for this and I hate the game, i think a lot of old people would catch wind and come back again too that loved epic 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

All right, I'll bite. :P Let's see if I can find something to disagree with.

 

So, the objections to moonmetal. Why is MM an issue such that everyone wants to drop it? Armor? With the new armor changes, light armor is very useful (if not becoming meta), and using MM for armor seems less desirable. For myself, I'm planning to save MM for weapons.

 

I suppose the MM weapon buffs could be an issue, but MM represents more gameplay/world diversity, and I'd hate to see it dropped. Rather, why not make it more acquirable?

 

Moonmetal veins on the central islands could do that, while providing a rare resource to fight over (and I'd like to see more fighting over resources). MM prospecting expeditions could generate all sorts of encounter PvP!

 

I'm sure all veins would be mined out as quickly as possible, but resetting the central island on a schedule would fix that, and we could even have the occasional event to convert random rock tiles to MM. (I'd prefer that to HOTA, to be honest.)

 

Quick, everyone tell me why I'm wrong! :P

 

I don't understand this want or push for forced content, just have a plain vanilla map and let people play the game

 

no one will fight over it, one side will acquire it and get it all and that will be the end of it until a few of them die

 

 

 

Maybe it's been said, but what about also taking out the new food system and going back to the simplicity of the old one

 

I don't agree with a "x amount of time" reset, because there will be attrition with every reset as has been seen every single other time in the history of the entire game that that has been done; stop suggesting it. 

Edited by Cornchips

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

All right, I'll bite. :P Let's see if I can find something to disagree with.

 

So, the objections to moonmetal. Why is MM an issue such that everyone wants to drop it? Armor? With the new armor changes, light armor is very useful (if not becoming meta), and using MM for armor seems less desirable. For myself, I'm planning to save MM for weapons.

 

I suppose the MM weapon buffs could be an issue, but MM represents more gameplay/world diversity, and I'd hate to see it dropped. Rather, why not make it more acquirable?

 

Moonmetal veins on the central islands could do that, while providing a rare resource to fight over (and I'd like to see more fighting over resources). MM prospecting expeditions could generate all sorts of encounter PvP!

 

I'm sure all veins would be mined out as quickly as possible, but resetting the central island on a schedule would fix that, and we could even have the occasional event to convert random rock tiles to MM. (I'd prefer that to HOTA, to be honest.)

 

Quick, everyone tell me why I'm wrong! :P

Sure I can try to tackle this.

 

One of the unique factors to the game was moon metal, originally designed to be a unique feature for epic, but as we know that changed.

 

Moon metal was originally a flare item, designed for specialized equipment, something to go "wow look at that" the buffs at the time were quite crazy, but the quantities were low. You would not necessarily waste your groups stock of moon metal on a chest plate, because that could be several swords.  It slowly became apparent that this moon metal, would become important the moment people began crafting helmets out of it. Moon metal very rapidly became a mandatory item, at least for the head, and those without moon metal gear would be disadvantaged to those with. Now, when you have an extremely dominant kingdom, who starts winning hota after hota, moon metal begins to stack on that kingdom. These powerful groups are now becoming more powerful, snowballing in fact. Other groups now have to go to hota for the material, where they meet, you guessed it. The group with the advantageous gear. 

 

This causing moon metal to be a forced mechanism, and a requirement. It allows snowballing, and no matter how much time someone puts into the game, crafting they still need that specific material over anything else. You can mitigate that with boulders, chests in the woods, and maybe random shots are mining ore. But does that really change the fact it creates yet another barrier?

 

I do not even want to get started on Seryl, put into the game as a loyalty reward. These armors are as tough as scale (the original rare armor of Epic), but at least it wasn't super abundant. 

 

To your point about central islands, but I feel that once again will fall back into my earlier point. It would be an inorganic location that players would have to go to, to be remotely viable. It restricts freedom of play, and if you are not the biggest fish in the pond it carriers with it a huge risk, that would honestly not be worth it to most groups.

 

I also do want to point out that by eliminating player made kingdoms, the player counts would ideally balance themselves out considerably, because I am a believer that the Original three kingdom, with four gods, was the perfect balance of gameplay.

 

Additionally, with Epic's skill curve and gain implies that players would perform at a higher level of pvp prowess than normal, the skills stack higher faster allowing for everyone to be a "tank" who has around 80 shield skill, wep skill, and fight skill. Additional stacking moon metals on top of the current armors would be terrifyingly slow.\

 

EDIT: One final point, Dragons were fairly rare on the server, and hard to kill. Combined with the fact that the armor could only be imped with the hides or scale themselves made it even rarer to see a piece let alone a set. Moon metals cheapen that, they just work around the rarity of dragon armor.

Edited by FranktheTank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

83819ae7c3.png

Edited by Oreo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, FranktheTank said:

Sure I can try to tackle this.

 

One of the unique factors to the game was moon metal, originally designed to be a unique feature for epic, but as we know that changed.

 

Moon metal was originally a flare item, designed for specialized equipment, something to go "wow look at that" the buffs at the time were quite crazy, but the quantities were low. You would not necessarily waste your groups stock of moon metal on a chest plate, because that could be several swords.  It slowly became apparent that this moon metal, would become important the moment people began crafting helmets out of it. Moon metal very rapidly became a mandatory item, at least for the head, and those without moon metal gear would be disadvantaged to those with. Now, when you have an extremely dominant kingdom, who starts winning hota after hota, moon metal begins to stack on that kingdom. These powerful groups are now becoming more powerful, snowballing in fact. Other groups now have to go to hota for the material, where they meet, you guessed it. The group with the advantageous gear. 

 

This causing moon metal to be a forced mechanism, and a requirement. It allows snowballing, and no matter how much time someone puts into the game, crafting they still need that specific material over anything else. You can mitigate that with boulders, chests in the woods, and maybe random shots are mining ore. But does that really change the fact it creates yet another barrier?

 

I do not even want to get started on Seryl, put into the game as a loyalty reward. These armors are as tough as scale (the original rare armor of Epic), but at least it wasn't super abundant. 

 

To your point about central islands, but I feel that once again will fall back into my earlier point. It would be an inorganic location that players would have to go to, to be remotely viable. It restricts freedom of play, and if you are not the biggest fish in the pond it carriers with it a huge risk, that would honestly not be worth it to most groups.

 

I also do want to point out that by eliminating player made kingdoms, the player counts would ideally balance themselves out considerably, because I am a believer that the Original three kingdom, with four gods, was the perfect balance of gameplay.

 

Additionally, with Epic's skill curve and gain implies that players would perform at a higher level of pvp prowess than normal, the skills stack higher faster allowing for everyone to be a "tank" who has around 80 shield skill, wep skill, and fight skill. Additional stacking moon metals on top of the current armors would be terrifyingly slow.\

 

EDIT: One final point, Dragons were fairly rare on the server, and hard to kill. Combined with the fact that the armor could only be imped with the hides or scale themselves made it even rarer to see a piece let alone a set. Moon metals cheapen that, they just work around the rarity of dragon armor.

 

That's a lot of history (and quite interesting), but I note that history was made -before- the recent armor changes, and -with- HOTA (which you want to remove).

 

So, a few questions:

 

- Is moonmetal armor still meta? Light armor now has viable (or nearly-viable) DR, is cheap, and provides mobility/dodge/parry bonuses, while not penalizing archery/spellcasting. Steel plate seems right out these days, and MM plate isn't much better (5% DR bonus versus 2.5%, and no special DR bonus for seryll that I know of). Chain still seems good, but with steel's DR bonus, is MM chain simply a marginal improvement?

- How much of the problem you describe with MM is simply due to the HOTA distribution mechanism? If MM veins could be found on all islands, would that solve the distribution problem?

- If MM were indeed removed, would scale/drake simply become the new scarce/special material you need to be PvP viable? Would snowballing remain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09/05/2018 at 11:44 PM, FranktheTank said:

Why not just take what the game used to be, no moonmetal, tomes, valeri, default gods, etc. (meditation?)  Make that the new server with the current armor changes, and balances people like of which can be picked and chosen. The goal being a more vanilla style of game play.  

 

This I would come back to epic for .

 

Keeping MM and Seryl jsut leads to the same point where only the snowballed kingdom gets any good amounts of it,. Back to jsut chain and maybe plate means everyone can make it , replace it, and we dont have people stupidly strong anymore. Makes gameplay more fun as armor is easier to replace leading to more people out pvping rather than hiding behind 600 slope homeserver deeds.

 

I would also love to see only one server for pvp. Get rid of homeservers but could put a homeserver nerfs around the starter deeds and make it so you cant attack starter deeds to give new players some safety but not absolute as it practically is now on homeservers.

 

Getting rid of tomes also. brand new start, ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make this hapend and drunk judi and glasse will come back at new year!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, gbgbo said:

Make this hapend and drunk judi and glasse will come back at new year!!!

Big if true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2018 at 6:35 AM, Prophetears said:

 

I'm fairly certain they didn't even merge the servers until Rolf told them to after he was made aware via email of how far the population dropped and he actually realized his livelihood was genuinely affected. Was very odd how that happened just a little bit after they were sent.

 

I'm always down for saying "Proph, you don't know what you're talking about". It's probably obvious to others, but feels nice to say. To be fair, I don't think Rolf had anything to do with it. It was merely a "we should do this so they'll stop crying". We care about your feelings ❤️

 

As for PvP changes - it's a nice read. I can say I'll bring it up, but that's all I can say. We've said it a number of times. We are focused on other projects at the moment. Don't bump this for two months and then cop an attitude that "the devs never do anything" when we've been openly stating where our focus is. It just makes it look like you can't follow the bouncing ball.

 

AS A PLAYER
One thing I *will* point out, especially about removing features: There's usually two sides. I would probably enjoy a server where the meta is more rounded, which is pretty much what this is suggesting. Moon metals were always too easy to dominate on Chaos in my opinion and I never agreed with a certain kingdom view of "all moon metal goes to the kingdom". It creates some unwarranted elitism when the point is to just have fun and clang crap together until someone falls down. Yet there's usually two sides - the side that has it and the side that doesn't. The fact that one side is allowed to dominate it at all means there's an imbalance in my mind. Something else my kingdom never agreed with me on. Yet I can understand how that side can feel like they're being punished for "winning" if it's removed or if the balance is restored. So the question is - who is "winning"? Who has the easy access that isn't bumping this thread? Anyone? No one? I'm asking seriously as I don't play PvP anymore.

 

That said - another thing is, how long until that's also "boring"? How long until folks leave again and only return here to take more pot-shots at game play they've essentially asked for, meanwhile demanding more be done? Simplifying the game play means that there's a chance of it becoming more stale. Raids on Chaos were 10-20 people flinging rocks at 2-4 people patching holes. If they even logged in. What does it look like on Epic right now?

 

AS A DEVELOPER

I look at PvP as a complex system. When you're dealing with a complex system, it's easy to look at one part of it and say "There's your problem!" without considering the system as a whole. This system by its very nature is made up of everything from the players together in their kingdom, the mechanics in the server, to the players on the other side that they're fighting. If players on one end of the system are given too much, the players on the other end will no doubt be unhappy, and vice versa. It's up to the middle bit of mechanics - which in of itself is a complex system - to try and help keep everything balanced.

 

When I see ideas, they tend to be looking at a very small area of concern. This idea has to do with the things that were added to try and make Epic more "epic" and in turn added more "meta", essentially. But what is the bigger picture? How many folks have played through the changes Budda implemented? I see conflicting accounts here - some saying moon metal is required, others pointing out that armor was reworked. I, myself, hobble around in a silly plate set still. So could some of this be just a lack of exploring the changes already made? There's also the idea of managing expectations. Right now it seems like the PvP community's expectations are all over the place. Hence the toxic commentary at times and the unhelpful "devs don't do anything" posts that only serve to demoralize us as a team. Would it help if we did what some other games do and consider PvP "seasons"? This way working up to changes that will be in effect for a specific amount of time before they change again? I think it would serve better than having the News posts trolled every 3 months for 3 months before another round of PvP updates go in.

 

Just some thoughts. No filter and all. Forum mods - if they call me stupid, it's not staff bashing. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now