The Wurm Economy Problem

[elroth 279]

14 hours ago, kochinac said:

This is very debatable and I would strongly disagree. When I was a newbie I got lucky in first few weeks I got rare fruitpress, I sold it for 5s, I was so happy and motivated to keep playing as I could do so much with those 5s, fund deed for quite a while, buy some modest skillers. These days if that happened to me as a newbie I could just suck it and beg someone to take that press for 1,5-2s with which even the other prices are lower I could do apsolutely nothing compared to the past 5s..

 

I guess, though rares still generate a small amount of S enough to start a deed at least. but getting high end enchanted tools is doable by foraging for coppers. I think that benefit outweighs the occasion you get a rare that sells .

 

[Raybarg 437]

Thats a long thread, TL;DR.

We fix out economy in Wurm by adjusting to the current standard.

Back in year 2011 when I started Wurm, it was possible to make sales on plain 70ql items with as much as (in rare cases) 1 silver per. (as dying off trend as "70ql for 1s".)

Moving on to 2012+ when my skill in Blacksmithing was enough to make 70ql, the market of 70ql already kinda died out (80ql seemingly never gained traction of popularity, the new trend emerged as "90ql for 1s".)
Somewhere around 2014 the trend as "90ql for 1s" appeared to be dieing off with new emerging trend of "9xql for 1s" being more dynamic starting from 91ql and moving up...)

Its as much as one can do half-ashumming how it went for the context of ppl having long discussions how "new players cant cut to market". There is cross-point in which new players speed of gaining skills does match what the market demands, but this cross-point keeps climbing up all the time. (This is what they call "so they learn it takes years to get there".)

But one fundamental aspect of how to look at this remains same; New players hardly every could just jump to the market, and "worth making" items were allways "up there in the pain tresholds" that only some fraction of player population manage to get there. I do remember the time when there was still market for lower quality range items with mediocre enchants, say 70ql and 70ish powers while I had already built my skills to the point of being able to massproduce those spending only a matter of "minutes" per item. But that time the stuff that really sold consistently were still at range of QL and powers that was hard and took me a matter of "hours" per item.

These days its relatively hard to sell plain item even with top enchants, unless the item is one of the "spam" types. Now sold tools need to be rare (or better), be 95+ql and have 90+ enchants. After all these years, indeed, making tool like that is in matter of "hours" for me to produce.

Conclusion!

There is nothing to fix in Wurm Economy. Its already been fixed.

Why?
Because skills cap at 100. "The pain" to produce 99ql items with 99+ enchants will be great and that will NEVER change. Its now matter of "if you want to participate in endgame market of tools you must hit 100 skill etc..."

How has it been fixed?
The change which introduced enchant decay on all occasions (removal of the "5 second rule".)

Now all tools lose QL and Enchants on usage no matter how good they are.

But those explanations dont explain...

Exaggerated scenario...

"Old players" steer towards using those 99+ql 100 power tools as its the maximum efficiency gained from tool, dropping down from 100 power to 99 power, or QL reducing down to 98+, they want reimp, recast or replace.
Then theres the "been having this rare, I want supreme" scenario aswell.
As economy is "saturated" with all kinds of tools that have become "fast" to produce, the market simply shifts to value the items that still are hard to produce. We should not fight this, its simply natural.

 

[Kaldari 53]

The problem with the Wurm economy is that many people don't understand economies and currencies. You see it on a daily basis in the real world, and a dev believing that getting 10k new monthly subs would be an easy fix highlights it in Wurm.  (On a side note, who would buy all the bricks and planks that these new subs would produce?)

 

This has already been said, but Wurm has too much supply, not enough demand, and not enough stuff leaves the game. There's no cycle of creation and destruction generating a circulation of goods.

Increasing decay or shatter would just annoy people because it impacts the 'fun factor' of playing.

Back in January 2016 I suggested on an economy thread that a solution would be to add an NPC (I'd put them on the coast so they could also buy ships, and every so often a King's Galleon sails up, collects stuff, and disappears beyond the horizon) who buys almost everything. That would mean that players could play how they liked from the moment they start, by selling whatever they produce to a guaranteed buyer, and those items are then removed from the game. The silver they earn could then go towards deed upkeep or buying higher ql goods from other players.

In theory, it should help with player retention, since they can play whatever role they want, rather than being pushed towards the bulk market.

 

This would make it easier for players to earn silver, so I'd also remove the ability to buy premium with ingame currency. If someone is retired/disabled/unemployed/whatever and has the time and inclination to spend hours earning silver to then convert into real money (assuming they find a buyer, and there likely always will be) then that's fine. It's up to them how they spend their day, but premium should be paid with something that Code Club can use to pay it's bills and reinvest into the business.

 

But here we are, nearly three years later, and players are still pointing out the obvious flaw in the mechanics ?

[Eobersig 1,006]

38 minutes ago, Kaldari said:

Back in January 2016 I suggested on an economy thread that a solution would be to add an NPC (I'd put them on the coast so they could also buy ships, and every so often a King's Galleon sails up, collects stuff, and disappears beyond the horizon) who buys almost everything. That would mean that players could play how they liked from the moment they start, by selling whatever they produce to a guaranteed buyer, and those items are then removed from the game. The silver they earn could then go towards deed upkeep or buying higher ql goods from other players.

 

Sadly your suggestion solves nothing. Even worse, your suggestion basically already exists, the NPC traders in starter towns do more or less what you want this new NPC trader to do, namely buying "almost everything" from players for silvers. You basically only suggest they should buy more, thus putting more free silvers into the game. Of course then more players would pay their premium with silvers and less RL cash for Codeclub to pay the bills for devs, servers and bandwidth.

[Kaldari 53]

I'm slightly surprised, Eobersig, I would have expected a Chat Moderator to read an entire post before commenting upon it, as I mentioned that my suggestion would put more silver into player's pockets, and that paying premium with silver should be removed.

 

You're right, the existing trader does partly do what I suggest, but it doesn't go far enough. The trader occasionally receives a limited amount of silver, which soon disappears.

 

Let's assume that my suggestion is in game:

A new player arrives, and wants to play as a shipbuilder. They scrape a few coins together and acquire the materials to build a rowboat, which they then sell to the trader. Then they build and sell more rowboats, gradually increasing their shipbuilding skill, and working up the ship list.

Because each ship they build is sold to the trader it disappears from the game world, so isn't cluttering up the area, and as they earn silver they can then hire a mason to build them a stone walled workshop (and a digger to level it then a carpenter to plan it if necessary) without them ever rummaging for iron ore in order to smith a pickaxe in order to mine a rock shard in order to create a brick.

That player's time is spent building ships. Maybe they'll buy a wagon and go collect materials, or maybe they'll just pay to have them delivered, whatever takes their fancy.

 

Let's say they spend enough time in wurm to earn a gold, and they decide to sell it for euros. The gold never actually leaves the game, it's useless outside wurm. So the buyer uses it for whatever and it goes back into circulation.

After the seller has converted silver/gold into Euros they pay Code Club for premium.

 

You could substitute any profession in place of shipbuilder. Want to be a tailor? Buy high ql cotton from a farmer, a high ql loom from a fine carpenter, tools from carpenter or blacksmith, without the player ever touching those skills. (The trader wouldn't want body parts though, only finished goods, so hunters would sell direct to an alchemist who would in turn sell healing covers/dye/etc to the trader)

 

My suggestion would act as a means of converting items to a universally accepted currency (and also have the side effect of trimming the database as items are removed). Items like bricks/planks could have a fixed rate, whereas items like armour/weapons could have diminishing returns as the trader's stock increases.

Code Club has complete control of the size of the pool of silver, and items would find a natural level value anyway, such as the one iron per action that has been standard for a while now.

 

Basically, every player gets to play how they like with their time

[Wargasm 1,928]

Kaldari, everyone understands what you want to do, but silver does not grow on trees.  There is a fixed amount of silver in the coffers, that gets re-distributed by traders, selling items to the token, foraging, killing creatures etc.

 

Your idea is basically a blank check, where people would be able to sell as many...rowboats, bricks, cloth shirts or whatever example you can think of to a trader for market value.

 

See I'd love to be able to sell bricks at 2s/1k to a trader.  Sure, disappear them from the game, I don't care.  But give me what they are worth, not a fraction of it.  Otherwise, there are players that would be happy to buy bricks for 1s/1k and *gasp* my bricks don't go to waste.

 

*edit*  Your system also fails to account for higher skilled accounts.  Nothing stops me, a 90 mason and 60 stonecutter from selling bricks much faster than a new player under the same system.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Wargasm

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

In the time it takes a newbie to build a rowboat, i could probably build 20 of them, It'll just end up as trader draining 2.0. Where's this silver coming from, is it just getting spawned in, creating an endless increase in total silver in circulation, devaluating the currency? if paying premium with silver is removed that's a huge flow of the forage/bot/sell to token/killing/burying silver removed, and i can't imagine it'd do very well with selling to traders tacked on.

 

15 minutes ago, Kaldari said:

Because each ship they build is sold to the trader it disappears from the game world, so isn't cluttering up the area, and as they earn silver they can then hire a mason to build them a stone walled workshop (and a digger to level it then a carpenter to plan it if necessary) without them ever rummaging for iron ore in order to smith a pickaxe in order to mine a rock shard in order to create a brick.

That player's time is spent building ships. Maybe they'll buy a wagon and go collect materials, or maybe they'll just pay to have them delivered, whatever takes their fancy.

How's that going to compare with them making things and selling it to traders themselves? why would i spend an hour or two travelling to do something when i could sit at home and spam bricks to sell to a trader, are these people suddenly going to pay a premium for me to do things not related to traders, or is the trader going to give me an awful price that's not worth it at all?

 

53 minutes ago, Kaldari said:

Let's say they spend enough time in wurm to earn a gold, and they decide to sell it for euros. The gold never actually leaves the game, it's useless outside wurm. So the buyer uses it for whatever and it goes back into circulation.

After the seller has converted silver/gold into Euros they pay Code Club for premium.

what's the difference between spending silver on premium and selling silver for euro to buy premium?

 

[Wargasm 1,928]

4 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

what's the difference between spending silver on premium and selling silver for euro to buy premium?

 

Quoted for truth.

[Roccandil 959]

3 hours ago, Kaldari said:

Basically, every player gets to play how they like with their time

 

In my view, that's the crux of the matter. If it -isn't- happening, that's a bad thing (whatever the reason).

[CrazyDad543 94]

    Now u know I may catch quite a bit of heat over my suggestion, but this needs to at least be discussed. This is something I often thought was odd since day one here in WO. 

   Why is it that creatures, agro and nonagro alike age, the structures age, the items decay, BUT the avatars do not? 

   Would this bit of reality help to balance the game? 

[Oblivionnreaver 5,174]

Skill decay was a thing in the past for skills over 70, was removed years ago. Having high skilled people isnt a problem wheb theres no instant mail anywhere in server cluster, which imho is the worst thing to happen to trade, even beating WU taking half the pop

[Wargasm 1,928]

42 minutes ago, CrazyDad543 said:

    Now u know I may catch quite a bit of heat over my suggestion, but this needs to at least be discussed. This is something I often thought was odd since day one here in WO. 

   Why is it that creatures, agro and nonagro alike age, the structures age, the items decay, BUT the avatars do not? 

   Would this bit of reality help to balance the game? 

 

Let me make sure I understand this correctly...

 

You want to take my character, make him die of old age.... so I have to start all over again after 4-5 years?  In one of the most grindy games I've ever played?  Not happening.

[kochinac 1,395]

Some of the people try to reinvent the wheel so hard... It all come around to the same at one point

[Hailene 362]

The day the character I've put nearly 400 days into keels over and dies is the day I quit Wurm.

This isn't PUBG where your sessions last 2-45 minutes. I've actually put in a non-insignificant portion of my life in this game.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Hailene

[Wargasm 1,928]

55 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I've actually put in a non-significant portion of my life in this game.

 

These people don't care.  They insist that the economy is a problem because they don't make enough silver to quit their job.

[Harriman 5]

For better or for worse Wurm is in a nitch market.  It is a a game that by design takes a long time to build up your skills or to build any almost  anything.   By design there is so much to do its overwhelming.  

 

Unfortunately this is not what most gamers want especially the younger the person you ask.

 

I recently came back to play this game again.  Last time I could not really get into it. Was more or less playing solo and having to  build  up everything. This time I already found a good settlement so I do not need to gather most of the raw materials.

 

While yes I hope to earn enough silver to subscribe how hard or easy it is to do so will not be what determines if I stay or not.  There is enough stuff to do starting  out that I can probably play  for months without  hitting the skill cap on very many skills.

 

 

Overall if the game is good enough people will find a way to pay for it. Or earn it in game  no matter how hard it is. If you make the game appealing enough people will put in the time  no matter how messed up the economy is or is not.

 

 

[Mordraug 2,542]

I still love the gold seller logic.

 

If 5 people need 10s each, they buy it off CC, CC makes 75 euros (1.5/s was it?).  Some Dude needs to prem up, he spends 15 euros.... now CC has 90 euros.

 

If 5 people need 10s each, they buy it off Some Dude, then Some Dude prems up.  Some Dude has 50 euros (he undercut CC), spent 15 on prem.   CC has 15 euros, Some Dude has 35 euros left over to spend on something else.

 

Yet Some Dude and his buddies keep doing the strangest mental gymnastics to "prove" that they're keeping CC afloat.  Takes a special level of Eric Cartman to convince oneself of such fallacies.

 

It's surrealistically admirable, I'll give you Some Dudes that much.

[Trake 360]

16 hours ago, Harriman said:

Overall if the game is good enough people will find a way to pay for it. Or earn it in game  no matter how hard it is. If you make the game appealing enough people will put in the time  no matter how messed up the economy is or is not.

3

 

I think this guy found the real issue. 

Wurm just isn't good enough to retain new players; especially gamers who have high expectations for quality. 

Wurm is perfect for retaining players that want a game with 'most of the features' that it offers because there are no other viable options at all. 

[Harriman 5]

I never said that Wurm lacked quality.  The game mechanics for creating things is great.

 

The only lacking quality part of the game is the graphics at times but it all depends on why the person plays.

 

Wurm is for people who what to work hard and who want to feel that  they accomplish something  in the end.  Not many games provide that.