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Niki

The Wurm Economy Problem

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I am trying to understand whats going on. I didn't say you said that.

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4 minutes ago, Mayra said:

I am trying to understand whats going on. I didn't say you said that.

You might want to spend a second or few minutes reading the thread then. Welcome to the forums it goes fast here. ;)

Edited by Niki

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So is the problem with the market niki due to some things being too expensive?

 

It is all supply and demand, if there is no demand the price is low, much demand and the price goes up.

 

This isn't walmart.

 

I can understand crying foul though the ones who have won the game when the majority of players in wurm have nearly zero chance of ever achieving this due to either broken personal goal mechanics or goals that are nearly impossible or impossible to achieve, it does seem unfair.

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11 minutes ago, Niki said:

You might want to spend a second or few minutes reading the thread then. Welcome to the forums it goes fast here. ;)

I did read. I just dont understand why is the Gary being talked so harshly about selling tomes. I want to do my personal goals and maybe sell it too.

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5 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

I can understand crying foul though the ones who have won the game when the majority of players in wurm have nearly zero chance of ever achieving this due to either broken personal goal mechanics or goals that are nearly impossible or impossible to achieve, it does seem unfair.

 

4 minutes ago, Mayra said:

I did read. I just dont understand why is the Gary being talked so harshly about selling tomes. I want to do my personal goals and maybe sell it too.

I am doing my best to speak on behalf of fairness to be honest, maybe I'm doing a poor job at it if you think I'm making fun of Gary.

 

I would just like to see a less gated game mechanic that wouldn't encourage people to spam alts to win the game. I just don't find this current system good for the game either personally as well as economically speaking of course.

 

The tome flood of 2018 is really a concern for the economy. As well as PvP cause now we have new contenders with Tomes they wouldn't normally have because of this loophole.

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13 minutes ago, Niki said:

The tome flood of 2018 is really a concern for the economy

 

me selling 2 tomes with only a 3rd to come after the second is a flood worth noting 10/10

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1 minute ago, MrGARY said:

 

me selling 2 tomes with only a 3rd to come after the second is a flood worth noting 10/10

Considering how infrequent they're sold, and the fact that you could flood whenever you feel like. Accurate.

 

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4 minutes ago, Niki said:

Considering how infrequent they're sold, and the fact that you could flood whenever you feel like. Accurate.

 

You do know that you can win the game without having to use tomes, and as such only one alt so far needed to use tomes for magician?  You do know you can have plenty of other diamond/gold goals, like imp 99ql, trash 10k items, repair 6000 walls, make 5000 wine, kill uniques, etc?  Thinking I'm flooded with enough tomes on epic to continually do magician/archmage is nothing more than delusion backed by absolutely zero fact.  I don't even personally have enough tomes on epic left to do archmage once, after using 6 to do magician, once.  The only reason I even did magician on an alt once so far, again I reiterate once, is literally because I wanted an alt named Sunkist to be a winner

 

This is clearly beyond being about the economy, it's niki vs me or niki vs epic, or both, for whatever reason

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Make tomes a random number of uses (1-3) and drop them on unique more frequently (since you can’t become a god anymore what’s slowing it down?) 

 

bones can can be found digging right? Why not tomes? Hell, why can’t we get fragments of tomes or bones!? 

 

Why is drake / scale so difficult to acquire? Why not increase the drop rate OR let it also drop a couple KG pile when butchered on top of piecing out the .03kg or whatever’s to all premium players. 

 

Make later game content more accessible and it won’t be so expensive. 

 

And as ive said before, remove all welfare systems (foraging, selling to token, traders, etc) and use that money to lower premium costs. 

 

Honestly lowering the price to play and making late game content more accessible (and not in a stupid easily corrupted way) so the game becomes less P2W. I bet you’d get an uptick in players trying pvp who otherwise would not. 

 

You might also see some players return. 

 

 

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I wasn't going to entertain this with a response but you got me, I'm genuinely interested to know where this flood of tomes is going to come from? The only thing I can think is from future wins? I cant even be bothered to continue for my own use I just got a bit of inspiration lately because you wanted to try and scandal us with some wild conspiracy and you validated that motivation by now trying to blame us for breaking the economy.

 

I'm also interested to see that you read one suggestion thread and decided that mag got a free ride, what it doesn't tell you is the history of all the other imbalances too numerous to list them all but just for fun, things like how long Lib had insane stats that no one could compete with, how many years JK dominated through having two gods that they could use to not only win but corner/attack with, how many years Nathan lived next door to Mag on a tile that he was drawn into to suicide to his high stats, how BL gets easier temples and how many years it took to build one in the one place it could be on old Elevation... or how flat new Elevation is.

I wont go on but I will finish with one last observation, you complain that we pick on you for living and breathing the market but here you are being pretty rude to someone who has a genuine question? Oh well.

 

3 hours ago, Niki said:

You might want to spend a second or few minutes reading the thread then. Welcome to the forums it goes fast here. ;)

 

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I dont normally use the forums. This is why.

 

Still, the question on my mind remains. Why is making an alt to get a tome an issue? You get the alt, you do the effort, you pay the premium. Everyone can do it. Whats the problem?

 

If more people did it, there would me more paid premium accounts, more money for the devs and more affordable tomes. Whats wrong with that?

 

And before you see it as an attack, I am asking a genuine question. I want to know what is wrong with it and why, so I know if I should/should not do it.

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4 minutes ago, Mayra said:

I dont normally use the forums. This is why.

 

Still, the question on my mind remains. Why is making an alt to get a tome an issue? You get the alt, you do the effort, you pay the premium. Everyone can do it. Whats the problem?

 

If more people did it, there would me more paid premium accounts, more money for the devs and more affordable tomes. Whats wrong with that?

 

And before you see it as an attack, I am asking a genuine question. I want to know what is wrong with it and why, so I know if I should/should not do it.

It is seen by some people in the community as an underhanded strategy from older players to "sidestep" the system and obtain high value items easily by spamming alts until they get a favorable one and doing the goals. 

 

Is it? Perhaps, but its equally available for everyone and it brings in revenue so I doubt the devs care. Is it wrong? No, I dont think so. Personally I think those that complain about it do so because they are too lazy/too proud to do it themselves and thus want it changed. The truth, however, could be anything.

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8 minutes ago, Mayra said:

I dont normally use the forums. This is why.

 

Still, the question on my mind remains. Why is making an alt to get a tome an issue? You get the alt, you do the effort, you pay the premium. Everyone can do it. Whats the problem?

 

If more people did it, there would me more paid premium accounts, more money for the devs and more affordable tomes. Whats wrong with that?

 

And before you see it as an attack, I am asking a genuine question. I want to know what is wrong with it and why, so I know if I should/should not do it.

 

Nothing is wrong with it IMO, at least not the player doing it. It’s wrong that the game makes that even a viable option to get them because of their scarcity. Especially considering they’re needed to win on a large portion of players goals. (Not counting the players with bugged goals they couldn’t win if they tried)

 

I’m not pointing fingers at any players though, or lumping myself in with anyone else who might do that. Just voicing my own opinion on this subject: late game content is too rare. Even with the low population the stuff is still too scarce and not really attainable in a reasonable late-game fashion. 

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10 minutes ago, Mayra said:

I dont normally use the forums. This is why.

 

Still, the question on my mind remains. Why is making an alt to get a tome an issue? You get the alt, you do the effort, you pay the premium. Everyone can do it. Whats the problem?

 

If more people did it, there would me more paid premium accounts, more money for the devs and more affordable tomes. Whats wrong with that?

 

And before you see it as an attack, I am asking a genuine question. I want to know what is wrong with it and why, so I know if I should/should not do it.

I apologize if you think I'm being aggressive or rude, I'm trying not to, sorry if you're interpreting what I am saying that way. Truly.

 

At this point I've said plenty on this subject should probably move the thread along. It's just something I see as a bad thing long term, call it an economic forecast. Thanks.

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7 hours ago, Niki said:

All you need them for is to finish off personal goals on your alts which you spam to get a new tome for winning the game.

You make it sound like spamming personal goals is something you do in an afternoon. It's much easier to hunt a humanoid unique the second it spawns on a 8x8 server than it is to finish personal goals like imp 100k, imp to 99, 5000L wine, winning 10+ scenarios on epic for the harder tome goals, idk why you think it's flooding the market. Spam alts until you get kingdom leader/trash 10k/repair 6k and get some tomes yourself, then you'll see how long it actually takes. could just work at mcdonalds and buy tomes with the income instead of farming them, be much more efficient that way. Or just get a locate priest, give him a horse/hellhorse on every server, get good gear, follow the unique tracker on twitter so it gives you notifications and go hunting as soon as it spawns. you can reveal an entire 8x8 server with only like 300-400ql of vesseled gems, its really not as hard as the people complaining about unique groups on the forums would have you believe.

 

Not to mention tomes have absolutely no effect on the market so its kinda pointless arguing about them on a thread about the economy, someones not gonna buy a tome and suddenly be broke causing a rare sell to sell their rares for 2s, That's purely people being impatient, try a different scapegoat. It sounds like you're just mad at gary for being in a market that you're not in, and he's not even the main seller of tomes, he's just the only one openly selling on the forums.

 

As for the points in the original post,

 

item sinks: People would just craft the items for the sink themselves, if you make it worthwhile to sell the items for someone to throw away, then the reward for crafting them yourself would be too high.

 

Disenchanting rares: This would only benefit rare spammers such as ourselves, i'd just set aside 5 of the 200 or so rare pickaxes i have to sell then scrap the rest for w/e change i get lol. The average person doesn't have a rare of everything, let alone enough to consider disenchanting them. Again pointing to the 2s sale before, people are impatient, they make a rare and expect people to line up and give them money, then they lower the price because "nobody's buying it therefore it's priced too high" If they waited they could easily sell it for 3-4s.

 

Are you having trouble selling items?: Bulk - no. rares - slightly less than what i would have sold a year ago but no. supremes - no. tomes - no. Imps/blank 90ql tools i stopped bothering with years ago apart from making for myself/alliance members, but when i go on the forums to buy an imp or blank tool, generally i post a few times 30m apart then give up and make it myself. enchants are no problem i can message once and get 10+ messages over the next hour asking if i found someone but I'd say imps everyone already has a friend/alliance member that will improve their gear for them, so people don't go to trade to buy imps, so people with those skills don't bother looking at trade chat through the spam and just rely on word of mouth/post in merchant ads. From what i've noticed once someone's found a smith/enchanter/bulk maker they stick with that person until the day they die and don't even recognize other sellers, so if you don't already have customers you have to be the absolute cheapest to get any hits.

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tomes should be more common, drake and scale should be unique and rare, but not better then the best armor you can make yourself. if you want to pay for the looks fine but lets have spider silk armor and silver thread armor etc etc that is is equal to drake and scale and that you can make your self.

 

CC should sell costumes and you can wear over your armor that change your appearance, special flags and other things that don't offer any advance apart from looks and use that money to hire a marketeer that makes a marketing plan. maybe skill tomes, that work like sleep powders for specific skills up to 50?

stuff like that. 

They should make catching up easy.

 

death should kill a few random items, res stones and those priest version of res stones should not exist, meditation needs a rework to not be so insanely awesome leaving newbies too far to compete.

 

every account should come with a free alt to make a priest, casts should decay but be WAY EASIER to do and a priest is a priest, don't matter which one you choose they can do all spells but you can only pick 10? or 15? out of the full list and each spell is a skill. channeling is removed or made into a small multiplier for success rate.

markets should exist to pay others for chores you don't like, like reimping recasting resources etc but not because you got here first or had more free time to spend watching pixels grow. I can do anything myself but i prefer to spend some silver instead of doing things i find tedious. that should be the only market.

 

honestly i think a lot of problems and resistance to changes come from the fact you can sell things and accounts for real life currency. i think only selling for silver should be allowed.

 

QOL QOL QOL!!! and get new people interested, make this game easier for newbies.

market will work fine if it was based on balanced game mechanics. if the devs need inspiration check out the sinks and fountains in and the conversion of real life currency in Eve online. 

 

i started playing 2897 days ago and i don't even want to know how much time i spent grinding 5 accounts on both epic and freedom. but i would still be interested in a complete wipe of skills and maps if it meant we restarted with a better skilling system, UI, marketing plan and market fountains and sinks. Not saying that that is the answer but it might be a start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, elroth said:

tomes should be more common, drake and scale should be unique and rare, but not better then the best armor you can make yourself. if you want to pay for the looks fine but lets have spider silk armor and silver thread armor etc etc that is is equal to drake and scale and that you can make your self.

 

CC should sell costumes and you can wear over your armor that change your appearance, special flags and other things that don't offer any advance apart from looks and use that money to hire a marketeer that makes a marketing plan. maybe skill tomes, that work like sleep powders for specific skills up to 50?

stuff like that. 

They should make catching up easy.

 

death should kill a few random items, res stones and those priest version of res stones should not exist, meditation needs a rework to not be so insanely awesome leaving newbies too far to compete.

 

every account should come with a free alt to make a priest, casts should decay but be WAY EASIER to do and a priest is a priest, don't matter which one you choose they can do all spells but you can only pick 10? or 15? out of the full list and each spell is a skill. channeling is removed or made into a small multiplier for success rate.

markets should exist to pay others for chores you don't like, like reimping recasting resources etc but not because you got here first or had more free time to spend watching pixels grow. I can do anything myself but i prefer to spend some silver instead of doing things i find tedious. that should be the only market.

 

honestly i think a lot of problems and resistance to changes come from the fact you can sell things and accounts for real life currency. i think only selling for silver should be allowed.

 

QOL QOL QOL!!! and get new people interested, make this game easier for newbies.

market will work fine if it was based on balanced game mechanics. if the devs need inspiration check out the sinks and fountains in and the conversion of real life currency in Eve online. 

 

i started playing 2897 days ago and i don't even want to know how much time i spent grinding 5 accounts on both epic and freedom. but i would still be interested in a complete wipe of skills and maps if it meant we restarted with a better skilling system, UI, marketing plan and market fountains and sinks. Not saying that that is the answer but it might be a start.

 

I like a lot of that, but wanted to say I -don't- like the idea of a skill wipe. Whatever benefits might be derived, the loss of loyalty would outweigh it.

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2 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

I like a lot of that, but wanted to say I -don't- like the idea of a skill wipe. Whatever benefits might be derived, the loss of loyalty would outweigh it.

i am not a fan of that in current conditions, but if they decide to make a wurm 2.0 with renewed marketing, better QOL, UI balance etc, i would quit this game and play that. or i would play both haha.

 

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5 minutes ago, elroth said:

i am not a fan of that in current conditions, but if they decide to make a wurm 2.0 with renewed marketing, better QOL, UI balance etc, i would quit this game and play that. or i would play both haha.

 

 

Yeah, a new parallel game (not server/cluster) would give players the choice. :)

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Always said this thing we are a Community and need to work as it, if new players join in on ur server help out, many ppl with alot of knowledge that dont do anything is for me lame.

When first freedom opened i was helping dannyiron to start the achademy he made to help ppl it was before tutorial was ingame. but it worked.

If u like the game then give it some love and to the community. =)

if market is dead it is, just find a way to work on thoose premises,still its a game just rember that ( best sandbox game i have run into ).

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For my two cents I think it could be fixed helped with more things like the cooking system. Food has become more important, doesn't last forever so constantly needs to be replaced and with the random affinity system "should" use a wider range of ingredients.   If they added temporary buff items to tools, weapons, etc that lasted a fixed durability people could keep their 40 silver items and then add a temporary buff of a wide variety. Think the rune system but temporary instead of permanent. This adds a product that constantly gets used up and needs to be replaced. 

 

As for improving the new player experience I know a lot of people hate the mail system but when I started playing we made all our in game coin off selling milk via the mail.  We came in at just the right time with the cooking update for it to be profitable, something a newbie could do and still be useful.  The change to sealed barrels mailing killed that more or less instantly. If we were to start right now I am not sure what we would have done to make our first bit of coin really.  Not that any of the others that started with me are still really playing, they all have quit for different reasons. I've brought in more to replace them but they tend to drift off too. Lets see how my most recent recruit does >.<

 

Like most others have said it is too late to put in a removal method of items which would have helped with the problem of over saturation of high end items.  So I'd look at new things that can complement existing things that can be used up and need replaced.  

 

Personal note I'd let the affinity boost from food and drinks stack so you at least had a use for drinks, no one needs them when you can buy a custom made pizza for cheap. Totally not because I enjoy making beverages. 

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Good to see you're still around @Eleraan!

 

It was great seeing you fumble around as a newbie :D I aways thought you' did rather well!

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On 1/5/2018 at 6:45 PM, JakeRivers said:

This isn't walmart.

 


Wallmart is so expensive for you, lets go to a 33 iron store (?)

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I've been playing for about a year now so here's my 2i.

 

First: The selling/transferring of accounts does need to end.  The accounts that get to high levels and get passed around causing the value of high end goods to crater from the fact that the people who buy them seek to get a "return on investment" by churning out a bunch of items and proceeding to flood the market. 

 

Second: There needs to be a way of being able to "dump" various amounts of raw materials for a "separate (and untradable) currency" like someone else posted. My idea for this is a quest that you have to pick-up at like a message board; "The king needs [boards/bricks/other raw materials (QL don't matter for this stuff) or weapons/armor/tools/equipment (stuff like saddles, backpacks, etc) of a minimum QL] and is willing to give X [currency name]". This currency could be used to buy things like buffs, karma, sleep bonus (not powders) or even unique things (how about adding the chance to buy another mirror to change your appearance?) that can only be obtained from this method. Having this for the individual as well as for the players settlement (which instead of karma might give towards the settlement bonuses or could be used to add a few coins to the deeds coffer.) would give players incentive to produce/buy what the mission requires. This would get players to convert the extra junk they have lying around into something that they might want.

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when i first joined on my original account i was in the group of ohh we can put money in and take money out, sweet maby i can have 6G in my bank then cash out. i smithed, i chopped, i built but never could catch up to anyone unless i sold no spell skiller steel tools. I quit after a year, let down that i wasent even close, then 2 years later came back with a new toon even farther behind. prices to me will always go down hill till everyone has supreme tools. the only thing that would make money are the unique hoarders who cut off loot for others and sell for almost 1g. I dont see many players leaving and i dont see many new players coming in, but no one has really "won the game" except for maby some of the people who made 3 new religions in less than a month.

 

Anyways the only way to fix a market is to introduce a squeal and hope people dont sit on the computer for a month to grind to be the first 90 and "cash out". some of the characters i seen that was for sale was 70 and 80 skills going for 400+, i dont know what a char today goes for. if this game became like eve economy i could see this game dying and a lot of hearts broken as it will become a investment to them and not a game. i would love to continue to play this game with my kids when they get older but there could be even more problems with less fertile land to start a adventure on. i would love to see a Wurm 2, but im sure that would die as so many have before. a steam release with new servers would help but soon be flooded with vets invading the new lands harvesting all they can.

my 4 cents of opinions

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