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Heuristics (no its not a spell)

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So in my other coming back thread the following ideas were place about featureitis  which I think below you will understand.

 

 

armyskin

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"The result is, in other words, that the product may be extremely productive to the small proportion of expert users whose knowledge of the useof the product has been extended with each incremental addition of features. For the first-time user or the beginner, however, the sum of features is overwhelming and it can be very discouraging to have to spend large amounts of time finding out how to accomplish simple tasks."

 

 

 

 

I don't even know how to express how true this statement is.

Agreed +10000

 

But I am wondering with if our Dev team has looked at the term heuristics for business and mind sets.  One of the 10 rules I learned for heuristics is an interface that can be complicated and simple at the same time.  Meaning that a person with a simple understanding can use one format and a  more advanced user can use a different format.  Wurm has this and case and point is macros.  If you want the simple version you can go into settings and select a key to bind it to.  If you want the more complicated or program focused type you can go and do the Bind command.

 

Google has MASTERED this approach  and is incredibly successful at implementing it.

 

So let me give you a forward example of what a possible change could look like for wurm that does that same thing.

You put a knife, shovel, pick in your inventory.  Current setup is to use them you have to double click them and highlight green to use.  Or have them on a toolbelt to use them.  A simple version would be that when using a MACRO it would check Inventory to see if that item can be used in that macro. If the item is ANYWHERE in your inventory it can be uses.  This ONE CHANGE alone would massively simplify an interaction heuristic of how things are done.

 

Now sit here and brain storm what else could be simplified in that way but still leave a more complex way in place if the player chooses it.  For instance they dont want to use macros and have other thing that are in the inventory they want to use and click through.  You now have a simple and complex mechanic in the game.

 

I think if we all sat down and thought about just these simple changes that take nothing from the game but were implemented it would most probably make a much friendlier user interface that would not even require a FULL BLOWN GUI interface upgrade.

 

Just some thoughts i mean things like this make it technically EASIER but do not take away from wurms complexity.  Thoughts?

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I'm totally for more innate documentation (I wanna see my CR! :P ) and more click-efficient actions (let me one-click-queue mining already! :P ).

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+1

 

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

I'm totally for more innate documentation (I wanna see my CR! :P ) and more click-efficient actions (let me one-click-queue mining already! :P ).

We already have the select bar, not sure why we can’t queue those actions to our max like we can in crafting window. 

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Wurm's UI and general usability is a relic of the stone age of online games. However, many times, when someone suggests QOL improvements such as context-sensitive hotkeys or automatic tool activation, it gets shot down by a million "-1" from veteran players who offer no explanation other than it "makes Wurm too easy." Of course, they are confusing QOL with difficulty, but it seems not many people understand that. Having to activate a seed or satchel every time you want to sow a field is not difficult, it's carpal tunnel-inducing nonsense that doesn't need to exist. Why do I have to have separate hotkeys for CUT_DOWN and CHOP_UP?  Why do I have to lead a horse before mounting it if I have permission to do both and have a rope in my inventory? "Because it would make Wurm too easy."

 

My point is the problem isn't just the existence of a legacy system or limited development resources, it's that players often actively resist such improvements.

Edited by LaRue
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46 minutes ago, LaRue said:

Wurm's UI and general usability is a relic of the stone age of online games. However, many times, when someone suggests QOL improvements such as context-sensitive hotkeys or automatic tool activation, it gets shot down by a million "-1" from veteran players who offer no explanation other than it "makes Wurm too easy." Of course, they are confusing QOL with difficulty, but it seems not many people understand that. Having to activate a seed or satchel every time you want to sow a field is not difficult, it's carpal tunnel-inducing nonsense that doesn't need to exist. Why do I have to have separate hotkeys for CUT_DOWN and CHOP_UP?  Why do I have to lead a horse before mounting it if I have permission to do both and have a rope in my inventory? "Because it would make Wurm too easy."

 

My point is the problem isn't just the existence of a legacy system or limited development resources, it's that players often actively resist such improvements.

The current game is stagnant because of lack of change, devs could do without listening to so called veterans also who might be the issue for this game. 

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None of this makes any sense at all. 

 

The Ui changes are more than just what happens when you right click, and will include a large amount of long requested quality of life additions and improvements. 

 

A few things have already been added:

The ability to drag into containers, as it eliminates half the windows needed open

The ability to simply activate the next tool in the toolbelt, operating like the quickbars of other games (which is essentially what the toolbelt currently is, a player made quickbar) 

 

As LaRue says, there's a big difference between difficulty, and intuitive. and that's a big part of what the UI overhaul will focus on too, not necessarily making things easier, but making them more understandable and straight forward. 

 

Wurm is never going to be "run around pressing one button and the game will work out what you want to do with what tool", but it can and will be moved to a more intuitive system that as someone long ago put it "feels like windows explorer the mmo"

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

None of this makes any sense

 

 

+1

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7 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

None of this makes any sense at all. 

 

The Ui changes are more than just what happens when you right click, and will include a large amount of long requested quality of life additions and improvements. 

 

A few things have already been added:

The ability to drag into containers, as it eliminates half the windows needed open

The ability to simply activate the next tool in the toolbelt, operating like the quickbars of other games (which is essentially what the toolbelt currently is, a player made quickbar) 

 

Wurm is never going to be "run around pressing one button and the game will work out what you want to do with what tool", but it can and will be moved to a more intuitive system that as someone long ago put it "feels like windows explorer the mmo"

 

 

A lot of what you do and say makes no senses either. Why don't you give us an actual preview of the UI instead of talking it up for a year just about? Getting tired of the promises tbh.

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14 minutes ago, Niki said:

A lot of what you do and say makes no senses either. Why don't you give us an actual preview of the UI instead of talking it up for a year just about? Getting tired of the promises tbh.

 

There's not a whole lot to show atm. The last year has seen a lot of other things take precedence over me spending as much time as I would like on the UI (though that is slowly changing now), so the majority of changes have been either backend changes to support the new UI, planning how we want things to change, or implementing the early versions of some of those things. Early versions are just that, early. I'd much rather not show off things that look terrible (even if they function fine) and they're still likely to change before their final version.

 

Like Retrograde said, some of the plans and things we've been working on have already made it out to the live client, as they were things we recognised as not needing to wait for the new UI - and there will likely be more of those things before we finish too. When we have something that I'm happy to show (and Saroman has had his pass at making it look not terrible), rest assured that it will be shared.

 

Edit: Having said that though, I am interested in any ideas people bring up in this thread - so please do continue in this thread with things you find silly or unintuitive that we could address with the new UI (or even things we could change with the current client).

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I haven't been around long enough to be "tired of promises" or jaded about the developers' choices, and so far I've liked the developers' direction, but I -can- say that most new features (QoL or otherwise) have been surprises.

 

For instance, the dragging into containers thing is great, and so is the new BSB/FSB/crate interface, but I had -no- idea that that functionality was even being looked at until it was already available, and I doubt anyone would accuse me of being only an occasional forum reader. :P

 

Surprises aren't necessarily a bad thing, but at the same time, I'd love to see a features roadmap. I know there's a new UI being developed, but other than a general idea of "betterness", I have no clue about its actual functionality improvements.

 

I realize it's not ready, but I don't see need to see pretty screenshots. :) Just a little text of what's being worked on would be cool.

 

For instance, here's the roadmap for the single-player game I was playing prior to Wurm (and what led me to search online for an MMO game in its style, so basically this game got me into Wurm):

 

https://lofigames.com/road-map/

 

I know the two games aren't an apples-to-apples comparison (and this roadmap hasn't been updated for a few months :P ), but the three-part structure of features under active development, luxury/stretch features, and completed features seems reasonable.

 

Right now I feel like we have very little idea of where you all are going with Wurm, and while I know there's risk involved in any kind of public roadmap, there's also risk in not letting any of us know at all.

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1 hour ago, Retrograde said:

Wurm is never going to be "run around pressing one button and the game will work out what you want to do with what tool"...

 

Building fences is pretty close. :) Plug the unfinished fence and required tool into the crafting window, and presto, one button click pulls the needed materials from your inventory automatically.

 

I've love to see that feature spread around a bit. :)

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I have played wurm for many years and experienced a time before key binds and it not something I dream of returning more the opposite. I had big issues right click, partly because of replacing my mouse with a new one. Having to use right click menu is just the single worst thing about wurm. Why does left mouse click not having an action? Left click could pop up the right click menu of options.

 

Who doesnt all actions have a key bind? For me it very annoying it take so long from a new feature like trellises get working key binds. It should not be possible to add a new feature without there being a key bind for it imo.

 

Why so many key binds for the same thing? Sow and plant do the same basic operation. lucky pick_sprout and pick_flowers always did same thing but why a new pick key bind that cant be used for the other pick actions? I know I can make pages of key binds and so on but they very hard to remember.

 

It could be a lot easier to plant, sow just by having container with seeds activated, why I need a to use multiple container and have to select them in right order to be able to queue up actions?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Budda said:

Edit: Having said that though, I am interested in any ideas people bring up in this thread - so please do continue in this thread with things you find silly or unintuitive that we could address with the new UI (or even things we could change with the current client).

 

As someone working like mad on cooking skills (Almost 71 cooking, 86+ HFC, 51+ DFM, 51+ butchering, 58 beverages, 68 baking), who finally after a long time learned about the 'Expand all'/'Collapse All' options from right clicking menu's...I'm currently spending half my time cntrl + clicking each and every single meal in 3 different ovens full of pottery bowls, and wondering why I can't just 'select all' of the sub-group of items in each bowl and - drag/drop out, or 'discard' (Or pour out, if it is liquid) like in most other games. Why do I have to make 100's of breakfasts, then turn around and click thousands of times to turn around and sacc them to the gods (Essentially using the gods as a toilet bowl) so they aren't sitting around taking awhile to decay? Especially when a day or 4 later, that % healing boost(Managed to get it over 28% healing boost on my deed at one point!) to my deed is just gone...effectively wasting all of that effort...other than skill.

That's my most current gripe.

Do I want the game to one click anything for putting my items into each of those pottery bowls? It would be lovely, but no, that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for the ability to throw away the excess I already did to keep proceeding forward/skilling up/stop wasting my time with 'features' that do nothing BUT waste it. (For example, snowball gathering...which cannot be 'gotten better at'...which requires at least 3-5 trips out of my deed to get a whole larder full of 99 QL snowballs...because you won't just put them at 99 QL for some reason...and like to waste our time for some reason. I'm fine with needing to gather snowballs, but having to gather a batch of 99 QL that'll last through the summer is purely wasting my time I COULD be using to play the game/work on a skill.) I shouldn't need to spend 15 minutes clicking a bunch of stuff to throw it out/trash it all. That's ridiculous.

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I'll take my chance to say - again (and again) - something about right clicking, menus and so forth: the "Get info" feature.

Couple years ago, enchanting grass (and some other things) went nicely into a sub-menu (yeah, right clicking, is how it is). Get info was ignored and i still waste it pretty much every single day, just because it pops up when right-clicking and because game is lagging, or I misclick or whatever.  Really can't it be set up differently?

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Yes, by all means, continue making suggestions to simplify the interface.... keep posting your suggestions so the GM's know who to watch for macroing.  Because that's exactly what the OP sounds like to me.

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15 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Yes, by all means, continue making suggestions to simplify the interface.... keep posting your suggestions so the GM's know who to watch for macroing.  Because that's exactly what the OP sounds like to me.

Tfw macros don't give a ###### about bad interfaces because you can just program them around it but everyone uses it as an excuse to keep garbage interfaces in the game and de-rail forum threads. Do you honestly think that, for example, natural substances needing to right click mix everything to skill makes it impossible to bot?

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4 hours ago, Retrograde said:

None of this makes any sense at all. 

 

The Ui changes are more than just what happens when you right click, and will include a large amount of long requested quality of life additions and improvements. 

 

A few things have already been added:

The ability to drag into containers, as it eliminates half the windows needed open

The ability to simply activate the next tool in the toolbelt, operating like the quickbars of other games (which is essentially what the toolbelt currently is, a player made quickbar) 

 

As LaRue says, there's a big difference between difficulty, and intuitive. and that's a big part of what the UI overhaul will focus on too, not necessarily making things easier, but making them more understandable and straight forward. 

 

Wurm is never going to be "run around pressing one button and the game will work out what you want to do with what tool", but it can and will be moved to a more intuitive system that as someone long ago put it "feels like windows explorer the mmo"

 

 

 

I hardly doubt that the new UI will bring that kind of improvement that wurm really needs, there will be an improvement but not as big as hoped. Reason for that is simple, none of the Wurm developers have an idea about how user interface design really works. They are good coders and others are great artists but none of them has a slight clue about human computer interaction.

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If I had a copper for every time I misclicked, “Embark - Passenger”, I’d be a very rich Wurmian.  My idea is just make it the first person to embark is the commander, and all subsequent embarkations are passengers. 

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1 hour ago, Sklo:D said:

 

I hardly doubt that the new UI will bring that kind of improvement that wurm really needs, there will be an improvement but not as big as hoped. Reason for that is simple, none of the Wurm developers have an idea about how user interface design really works. They are good coders and others are great artists but none of them has a slight clue about human computer interaction.

Maybe they just need to try their own game, play little longer and this way see all the flaws. Then people would not need to suggest every little annoying change. Couse those changes would became obvious to devs.

 

1 hour ago, Finndar said:

If I had a copper for every time I misclicked, “Embark - Passenger”, I’d be a very rich Wurmian.  My idea is just make it the first person to embark is the commander, and all subsequent embarkations are passengers. 

 

Button on the bars should have fixed postions, shouldn't move no matter how many options are currently available.

Edited by Wilczan

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7 hours ago, Budda said:

Having said that though, I am interested in any ideas people bring up in this thread - so please do continue in this thread with things you find silly or unintuitive that we could address with the new UI (or even things we could change with the current client).

 

The dev team is doing something, we all know that and we are assured the new changes will come. Yay for that, no irony.

At the same time we are being asked for our input and ideas. But would it not be more beneficial if we, the players, had some idea what and how is being planned? Perhaps we can add something minor to the ongoing work before it's finalized and would take much more time to change/tweak later.

A rough example is the Enchant Grass and Get Info, mentioned above by Evening. I don't remember if the players even knew that was being worked on. But if it were openly on the table, Evening could just hop in there and say "come on, spend 10 more minutes and code that other thing in this thing too, pleeeeease".

 

The suggestion forum is full of ideas. Some of those are picked for development "as is suggested", some are taken and put together with another, similar suggestion, and given to us as a hybrid change. I'd suggest, when anything is picked for development, it gets a "thumbsup" icon from the devs and maybe even a topic in a dedicated forum section, where the progress and mechanics-to-be can be discussed in more detail.

 

And I now realize, I've basically written Roccandil's idea of an open roadmap, with my own less smart words.

Well, Rocca, have that as a +1 from me then :P

Edited by Shmeric
typo
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5 hours ago, Finndar said:

If I had a copper for every time I misclicked, “Embark - Passenger”, I’d be a very rich Wurmian.  My idea is just make it the first person to embark is the commander, and all subsequent embarkations are passengers. 

 

Perhaps I use and travel with multiple characters more than you do, but this suggestion would not enhance my quality of life.  Quite often, for a variety of reasons, I want the first character to be a passenger.  Having said that, I'd adapt I'm sure. Perhaps a settings toggle that defaults to first on is commander but can be switched off?

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1 hour ago, Shmeric said:

 

The dev team is doing something, we all know that and we are assured the new changes will come. Yay for that, no irony.

At the same time we are being asked for our input and ideas. But would it not be more beneficial if we, the players, had some idea what and how is being planned? Perhaps we can add something minor to the ongoing work before it's finalized and would take much more time to change/tweak later.

A rough example is the Enchant Grass and Get Info, mentioned above by Evening. I don't remember if the players even knew that was being worked on. But if it were openly on the table, Evening could just hop in there and say "come on, spend 10 more minutes and code that other thing in this thing too, pleeeeease".

 

The suggestion forum is full of ideas. Some of those are picked for development "as is suggested", some are taken and put together with another, similar suggestion, and given to us as a hybrid change. I'd suggest, when anything is picked for development, it gets a "thumbsup" icon from the devs and maybe even a topic in a dedicated forum section, where the progress and mechanics-to-be can be discussed in more detail.

 

And I now realize, I've basically written Roccandil's idea of an open roadmap, with my own less smart words.

Well, Rocca, have that as a +1 from me then :P

Adding extra things doesn't necessarily cross like that, there is no "oh while you're working on that can you add this and that and this?" 

 

there is no "ten minutes extra to code this" either. 

 

What we're asking for is examples of scenarios where interaction seems unintuitive or unnecessarily time consuming, we arent asking for how to fix it (though suggestions are nice on that aspect too) we're simply agreeing that this topic has some merit, and everyone who takes the time to give their input helps.

 

We of course spend a lot of time scouring the suggestions forums for issues and things we can add into the ever growing list of what we'd like to make easier to do, and there are always ones we've personally missed, which is where this thread becomes helpful, we might not be able to action every single issue raised, and implementation doesn't always match the initial suggestion, but things come in different paces, and the valrei international is where you are informed about major changes coming

 

Again, to reiterate, some things that have already come as part of the UI overhaul are:

Placing

Drag to container in the world 

Scrolling through the toolbelt

Dig to pile

 

there's more to come, and they aren't necessarily anything to do with how right click menus work yet, but it's a large process, and I hope to have more to share on it all as it comes. 

 

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13 hours ago, armyskin said:

I would love to see what my CR is during a fight.


ruins immersion -1

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