Posted March 17, 2018 20 minutes ago, JakeRivers said: And being able to remove gear while riding a horse is no more unrealistic than seeing trolls and spiders the size of VWs while you ride around, its a game not a real life simulator, get over it already. We call them baby spiders down under I know there's a lot of discussion about realism vs gameplay, and I think what's being missed is what constitutes enjoyable gameplay, it's not realistic to wear glowing hot armour, but it's not enjoyable to have to wait for it to cool down to wear, likewise with horse gear. Horses go down fast, and without being able to take gear it increases the turnaround time in pvp, which can stack up pretty high if a group loses their horses already. Rest assured, it's considered a bug by us, and we will be addressing it, unfortunately it's not quite fixed yet but it's ongoing, and we'll get it sorted 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 32 minutes ago, Reylaark said: Was thinking the same but I'm with Amadee on just having to lol sometimes. A pve player asking if we could possibly not have goals that involve pvp is summarily rejected by pvp players completely unaffected by it, but removing horseshoes at a full gallop? Oh yeah, absolutely, that should be in game immediately. I'm unaffected by it, so if that makes them happy, sure, who cares. The double standard they don't even remotely begin to recognize is just mind boggling though. There must obviously be a reason why killing horses so easily suits the very same people who don't want to lose their gear, otherwise it would have already been changed. Full disclosure: I am a PVP player. We should all remember to be careful not to fall into the all too easy trap of painting all with the same brush just because they enjoy a particular style of play etc. It's funny in this case that it's often members of the kingdoms that enjoying raiding aggressively that are doing the most complaining about the loss of expensive horse gear. They don't seem to feel as strongly about improving the defense/attack balance by making deeds, safe mines etc harder to attack. Often they will chant "Defenders should wear their best gear in battle, even if said battle is impossible to win". A good moon metal or scale or drake armor set is worth far more then the horse gear we are discussing here. In real life raiding a well built defensive city will take months and/or years. In Wurm it's expected to spend months building defenses and yet the attackers often feel it should take less then 10 hours to destroy all that work. The game needs a much better balance of attack and defense and in my opinion it's time to shift things over to the more defensive side. I would like to see archery towers actually make a difference. Right now they are useless along with templars and strange devices. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Retrograde said: We call them baby spiders down under I know there's a lot of discussion about realism vs gameplay, and I think what's being missed is what constitutes enjoyable gameplay, it's not realistic to wear glowing hot armour, but it's not enjoyable to have to wait for it to cool down to wear, likewise with horse gear. Horses go down fast, and without being able to take gear it increases the turnaround time in pvp, which can stack up pretty high if a group loses their horses already. Rest assured, it's considered a bug by us, and we will be addressing it, unfortunately it's not quite fixed yet but it's ongoing, and we'll get it sorted Turnaround time is interesting. If the defenders grabbed that gear, put it on their horses and then rode to the enemy turnaround time would be even faster, no? Make no mistake, this mechanic is about the strong preserving their investment and being able to keep their gear. If they are high end accounts the chance of them dying is pretty low so the gear is 100% safe due to this mechanic. It's a decision that very clearly favors the attacking force of any attack. Enjoyable game play. Surprised and yet very pleased that you brought this up. Maybe now we can actually have an open discussion on what constitutes enjoyable game play? - Is it enjoyable game play to have timers for things that give no benefit other then to waste the players time (like moving stuff around, better then it was however why have a timer at all) - Is it more enjoyable to force people to use their game time to pick up dirt piles from the ground rather then have the dirt just automatically get stored in a crate on a cart? - Is it enjoyable game play to have to dismount for almost everything we do in game compared to just getting the just done from horseback, cart or wagon? - Is it enjoyable game play to build defensive items like archery towers, strange devices and even pay for templars to see them have no impact on defense even though most serious deed raids are planned for when no one will be online to defend? - Is it also enjoyable game play to spend time in a very uncertain part of the game and yet see player question after player question about the plans for that cluster be constantly ignored as if they don't exist and/or are unimportant? I could continue with more comments like this however I feel I've made my point. The suggestions area of the forums have countless ideas that could make for a far more enjoyable game play experience that for the most part remain without staff/DEV comment. ~Nappy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Retrograde said: cool down to wear, likewise with horse gear. actually you can not put glowing hot horse shoes onto a horse, it screams and kicks out at you if you try 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 You dont use horses while raiding. During raids, horses go into mines so they dont get killed by arrows. Its during open field pvp that it becomes an issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 19 hours ago, MrGARY said: where is the lore explaining our incredible power to hold glowing hot metal and mash it into an anvil to create a complex creation where is the lore explaining our incredible power to hold glowing hot metal and mash it into said complex creation to improve it where is the lore explaining our incredible power to put glowing hot metal armor against our bare skin for protection where is the lore explaining our incredible power to chop down an entire overaged tree with a rake where is the lore explaining our incredible power to pick up the entire felled tree and put it in our pocket where is the lore explaining our incredible power to dig entire massive chunks of dirt and hold it in our pockets in pristine form awaiting removal from our pockets the list could go on for ages in fact, wurms reality is so intensely horrifying, that the lore requires us to have a little bit of qol to deal with the painful reality we see in ourselves as we rip the armor off our melted charred skin with our disfigured hands and that's how it explains our power to take gear off a horse Good point. Fix all of this too. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, SmeJack said: Im not playing group vs group It was those whom it impacted Yeah, good call. I'd say I don't mean to get combative but I kinda actually do when I get annoyed. Those whom it impacted... that makes sense. Great for them, absolutely. What got to me is someone telling me pve oriented players must have pvp goals while simultaneously telling me concessions made to protect their own choices make perfect sense. It then seems to me as though there's a group that feels deserving of help for things that impact them, all while telling others they can't have the same consideration. Just rubs me the wrong way. Cue Al Pacino's voice saying he'll "take a flamethrower to this place." My bad. 1 hour ago, Nappy said: Full disclosure: I am a PVP player. We should all remember to be careful not to fall into the all too easy trap of painting all with the same brush just because they enjoy a particular style of play etc. You're right, and sorry about that. It's just a subset of a group. All aliens are green, John is green, thus John is an alien. Not true, and yet I'm sounding like: All the people with the mentality that gets on my nerves happen to pvp, so all pvpers get on my nerves. Not true either. It's more a problem of nomenclature than an over-arching belief. Again, sorry. 2 hours ago, Retrograde said: Horses go down fast, and without being able to take gear it increases the turnaround time in pvp, which can stack up pretty high if a group loses their horses already. Again, not to be combative here but... isn't that the nature of full loot pvp? It's imperative to have backups ready to get back to the fight asap. Will it necessarily be the same quality? Perhaps not. We've all been there, haven't we? Wouldn't it be easier to just make it so horses can't be looted if dead? (except by trusted friends list) Grabbing the gear before dying doesn't mean they'll respawn with it right? So wouldn't the end result be the same? 2 hours ago, Retrograde said: Rest assured, it's considered a bug by us, and we will be addressing it, unfortunately it's not quite fixed yet but it's ongoing, and we'll get it sorted A bit confused by this. Are you saying grabbing horse gear while riding is a bug that will be addressed? Not saying it needs to be. I'm just not sure how to reconcile that statement with the things you said above it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 3 hours ago, JakeRivers said: A horse with barding or oakshell is already hard enough to kill. And being able to remove gear while riding a horse is no more unrealistic than seeing trolls and spiders the size of VWs while you ride around, its a game not a real life simulator, get over it already. Oh please. Trolls and huge spiders are acceptable lore. Removing horse gear on a full speed horse isn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Retrograde said: We call them baby spiders down under I know there's a lot of discussion about realism vs gameplay, and I think what's being missed is what constitutes enjoyable gameplay, it's not realistic to wear glowing hot armour, but it's not enjoyable to have to wait for it to cool down to wear, likewise with horse gear. Horses go down fast, and without being able to take gear it increases the turnaround time in pvp, which can stack up pretty high if a group loses their horses already. Rest assured, it's considered a bug by us, and we will be addressing it, unfortunately it's not quite fixed yet but it's ongoing, and we'll get it sorted Nappy hit you pretty hard on the enjoyable thing, so I'll spare you that from me. But I -will- say that I'd be willing to wait for armor to cool down to put it on; it just makes sense. Thanks for commenting! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Roccandil said: Oh please. Trolls and huge spiders are acceptable lore. Removing horse gear on a full speed horse isn't. ....and what defines trolls and huge spiders being acceptable lore and removing horse gear not being acceptable? you...? horse gear was always allowed to be taken off a ridden horse for as long as horses and horse gear existed. with the addition of bardings with polearms, the ability to gear while riding was removed because that was op (keeping barding off for speed then chucking it on for instant defense) and taking gear off was left as is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 I would say that to add to realism, humanoid mobs should be recoded to aggro ridden mobs as well, not just tamed ones. It just makes sense that the Troll figures out if he dehorses you he has a better chance to eat you. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 23 minutes ago, MrGARY said: ....and what defines trolls and huge spiders being acceptable lore and removing horse gear not being acceptable? you...? Oh please. Trolls and huge spiders go back to Tolkien and Lord of the Rings at least, and if one of the most popular books and movie series of all time isn't enough to render a lore acceptable, what will? 23 minutes ago, MrGARY said: horse gear was always allowed to be taken off a ridden horse for as long as horses and horse gear existed. with the addition of bardings with polearms, the ability to gear while riding was removed because that was op (keeping barding off for speed then chucking it on for instant defense) and taking gear off was left as is Just because something was always allowed, doesn't mean it isn't absurd. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Angelklaine said: I would say that to add to realism, humanoid mobs should be recoded to aggro ridden mobs as well, not just tamed ones. It just makes sense that the Troll figures out if he dehorses you he has a better chance to eat you. Mob ai in general could get a thrice over. For example wolves... should hunt in packs, or at least howl for backup if in trouble. Also, I've never been attacked by a pack of wolves while on horseback, but doesn't it seem like they'd go for the horse's legs rather than ignoring the horse while going for the human? I'd imagine the coding is complicated but there's really so much that could be fun with more realistic mob behavior. Reminds me of a time I was running away from a troll while on foot. Made it to a boathouse looking thing, but ground floor was all arches. Seriously freaking out by now, I see a ladder, climb and breathe a huge sigh of relief irl. Wouldn't you know it, f'n trolls know how to climb ladders I jumped off the second floor and the Benny Hill music started all over again. Stuff like that makes PvE a lot of fun. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Reylaark said: Mob ai in general could get a thrice over. For example wolves... should hunt in packs, or at least howl for backup if in trouble. Also, I've never been attacked by a pack of wolves while on horseback, but doesn't it seem like they'd go for the horse's legs rather than ignoring the horse while going for the human? I'd imagine the coding is complicated but there's really so much that could be fun with more realistic mob behavior. Reminds me of a time I was running away from a troll while on foot. Made it to a boathouse looking thing, but ground floor was all arches. Seriously freaking out by now, I see a ladder, climb and breathe a huge sigh of relief irl. Wouldn't you know it, f'n trolls know how to climb ladders I jumped off the second floor and the Benny Hill music started all over again. Stuff like that makes PvE a lot of fun. Imagine the cries of people when their favorite horse ends up dead the first time they go out riding and it gets iced by a troll or a hellhound, tho. People do get attached to their mounts, just as I am attached to my famous Rageed. Sometimes you have to choose between QoL and realism. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Angelklaine said: Imagine the cries of people when their favorite horse ends up dead +1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Angelklaine said: Imagine the cries of people when their favorite horse ends up dead the first time they go out riding and it gets iced by a troll or a hellhound, tho. People do get attached to their mounts, just as I am attached to my famous Rageed. Sometimes you have to choose between QoL and realism. I don't see this as a realism thing; it's about the immersion. Also, I -do- risk my mounts already while fighting Uttachas on Epic, so that becomes part of the risk/reward calculation. The increased risk also tends to make the world scarier, which increases immersion. At that, I wouldn't mind only having the world be more dangerous on Epic, and leave Freedom as-is. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 46 minutes ago, Roccandil said: I don't see this as a realism thing; it's about the immersion. Also, I -do- risk my mounts already while fighting Uttachas on Epic, so that becomes part of the risk/reward calculation. The increased risk also tends to make the world scarier, which increases immersion. At that, I wouldn't mind only having the world be more dangerous on Epic, and leave Freedom as-is. Yeah. I wouldnt mind risking mine either. But many people would. Hence why it needs to be balanced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 41 minutes ago, Angelklaine said: Yeah. I wouldnt mind risking mine either. But many people would. Hence why it needs to be balanced. Well actually your replies raises a good point. Two people, Roc and you, would like the risk. Me too. Perhaps the other people is just a misconception, an incorrect assumption. Who really can speak for anyone here but the person themselves? So perhaps, by reacting to the assumption, we take the game in the wrong direction. See the problem? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 Not a misconception when you have been around long enough to see the reactions of many many changes, mobs used to eat mounts a lot more often and there were many cries. Learning from the past and not repeating a cycle of nerf and unnerf the same things over just to see who will complain this time doesn't seem like the best use of time or patience from customers. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 Roccandil is slowly becoming my favorite wurmian, keep it up bro 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, LorenaMontana said: Roccandil is slowly becoming my favorite wurmian, keep it up bro I thought I was your favorite... I am dissapoint. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 18, 2018 A more robust mob ai has been on my mind for quite a while. I know Buddha has mentioned spending some of his own time working on it. I think it's something a lot of people would love to see, and there is way more to mob ai than "mob eats mount, mob no eats mount." That's where realistic animal behavior comes in, and no, realism is not the enemy of the recently venerated qol. Remember when qol wasn't such a prevalent acronym on this forum? Should probably be qol™ by now. Anyway, the suggestion that mobs eat mounts may have been little more than bait at inception. It was only after responding that the thought occurred to me. On the bright side, I don't think I went hook, line and sinker on that one. Instead, I got all excited at what animal behaviors could be brought in.... derp. There's definitely potential there without necessarily having to make people cry though. There's far less arduous ways of making people cry. Compelling PvE, immersion, challenge, curiosity, more interesting pets... I think Wurm is well suited to fleshing out that facet of the natural environment. Fits into its niche. I'd imagine that's more on the yearly scale roadmap than monthly, so maybe there's room for some good discussion on the topic in the meantime. It'd be a fun one, imho. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 19, 2018 I'd love to see more interesting AI behaviours, but for now, I'd settle for seeing AI mobs remain in their natural biomes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 19, 2018 On 3/18/2018 at 2:14 AM, LorenaMontana said: Roccandil is slowly becoming my favorite wurmian, keep it up bro Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
