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Reeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

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Funny enough i've never done the tutorial...Nadroj is a waaaaaaaaaaaaay older account than the tutorial o.o

Edited by Nadroj

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3 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

On some level I do agree with you. But then again if we separate pvp from pve, then almost none of the goals are pvp goals, which then would mean every single player goals in existance are not doable by PVP players. 

 

I am not saying you need to participate in PVP activities, like becoming part of a pmk and doing all things that have to do with pvp. Neither of the two goals mentioned require this. You can go on your own personal time, and complete both of them without having to deal with the intricacies of Chaos. Even the one that requires you to kill another player you could do it by just jumping on the epic portal and completing it there, without much travel involved. If you are ingenious enough, you can simply talk to one of the Epic chaps who would likely help you out to get settled. Many pvers have no qualms going to Chaos to priest up at the white/black light, or had any issues with pulling out an affinity from their alt. This is no different. 

 

I think the misunderstanding lies that people see that you have to kill another player, and people quickly assume you need to go join some pmk and participate in some raid or something. You don't. You cross the border, get invited into HotS, kill another player (your friend's alt) or get the crown, and you are done. And yes, both of these two goals are just that easy.

 

I don't understand how "every single player goal is not doable by pvp players?"

 

All I'm saying is choosing to play pve rather than pvp is a discrete choice.  It's binary for some people.  It's not a little pvp, it's no pvp.

Yes, there are of course work arounds, but I don't think a design that requires little tricks is good.  People shouldn't be killing alts for affinities.  That's abusing a mechanic by using it in a way that was never intended.  I don't care if other people do it, but I do care to know I am not doing it.

 

Even if players who want to become a priest don't want to go to Chaos, they have the option not to.  I see no value in forcing people to go to Chaos.

 

Is there an off chance they meet people to help them get set up?  Not for the people I'm talking about.  I know it's really hard to imagine, but some people don't want to participate in the pvp game.  It's nothing against pvp or pvper's, it's just that they are here only for the pve.  Even if there was no pvp, they would still buy and subscribe to Wurm.  It's not remotely about the pvp for them and never will be.

There is no reason to force them into it, even if it's just nothing more than a time sink to cheat the system as it exists.

 

At that point, it's time to change the system.  All it takes is a switch to denote "no pvp goals wanted."  Easy Peazy, everybody happy.  Those who want to pvp can, those who don't mind can, those who are only interested in Wurm for the pve game and will not play pvp under any circumstances (which is not against any rule at all) can be happy without having to put their integrity into question by using silly little tricks.

 

There's honestly no reason it should bother anyone if another Wurmian just doesn't want to pvp.  It's really not anyone else's business, not to be aggressive at all, just empirically speaking, live and let live.

 

I'm guessing we're not going to agree ;).  I can live with that.  Well, actually, we both agree the other one is wrong, so you know, there's that.

 

I would honestly prefer a "fantastic item" goal than a pvp goal.  I may never achieve it, sure, but it is within the realm of my gameplay.

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13 hours ago, Corsan said:

 

OK Mr Smarty-pants. If you want to be all literal...let me put this another way.

I joined the game back when Pristine was it's own solo server, that wasn't connected to any other server, much less PvP-Chaos. I was given goals there which were impossible to complete as I literally could not access PvP at the time (Unless you want to count being able to go through a portal to epic, which it stated quite clearly via in-game stuff that nothing you do on PvE transfers..this would seemingly have included personal goals.). Just because we can now access the PvP server, doesn't mean it made sense then. Going to a server that is PvE only should have given personal goals that were actually do-able on PvE. So I essentially started out with broken goals.


Why are you talking down to me as though you think my game-time is less valuable than yours because you PvP?


For reference :

"[05:25:44] You entered through the portal to Wurm on Luck day, week 4 of the Snake's starfall, 1036. That's 1565 days, 21 hours and 14 minutes ago."

"[05:25:44] You have played 261 days, 13 hours and 28 minutes."

"[05:25:44] You have been premium a total of 29 months since Dec 2013."

It is rather broken that there are aspects of this game that I literally cannot complete because they chose to poorly design something. Just because you disagree that it's broken, doesn't mean it ain't broke. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' is the mentality you folks are approaching this with...and it's certainly very broken. There's whole goals that just can't even be completed. (As evidenced by multiple comments in this thread.) Saying 'Well, you just don't wants to do eet' because I won't go participate in your killing spree of PvP and lose all my hard work doesn't mean I should be forced to do something that has no purpose to me. They should have code split PvP off PvE long ago, but they won't because there are still die hards over there hoping to snag more PvE players into their rodeo, just like you. We don't want to play with you over there, and attempting to force us with coding isn't going to achieve it either...even if you get all uppity about it.

The people in this thread are asking for the ability to actually complete their personal goals...some of them want to acquire something. (I personally could care less, because no game items/title/etc is ever worth a crud to me/value-wise. I wrote those personal goals off a long time ago and didn't even look at them and just did what I wanted to do, when I wanted to do it. Is that really what you want new folks to the game to do? Just look at the goals they get and be like 'Whatever...')

I can't see any logic in this. You're not on "PvE servers only". You have 2 clusters. Epic and Freedom, and Chaos is a part of Freedom. That's it. You didn't choose an option during registration to enter PvE only servers. You've chosen Freedom, and Chaos is a part of it like any other server. It's only up to you, that you don't wanna go there. Your decision, your consequence. It's not like game's technically preventing you from doing your missions. It's the barrier in your mind, only. 

That's like I'd cry over my goals. My last diamond goal is to improve item above 99QL. "But I don't want to. I've chosen freedom server and my freedom allows me to create only bulk materials. I refuse to do any crafts, and yet I can't finish my goals. Game's broken fix pls"

We're talking about winning a game? You get it? Win, lose, those are totally different things, yet strongly connected to each other. To win something, you usually need to deny oneself many things. Every win in a game, life, in your mind has a price. There's nothing for free, and there's nothing supposed to be equally due to all people. If everyone could get everything, there wouldn't be such term as "win" or "lose". That's why people aren't equal as well. There are some, who put a great work, deny everything they had to, and finally they've paid their price to become rewarded. And those, who're claiming they have to got everything just because they can't do something (not technically) or without hard work, or being unable to set aside anything. Those who did and reject everything what's required, have won. Those who didn't, have lost. Simple as that. 

 

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1 hour ago, Reylaark said:

I would honestly prefer a "fantastic item" goal than a pvp goal.  I may never achieve it, sure, but it is within the realm of my gameplay.

I would love to trade my "Become a Diabolist" goal (which I never knew was impossible before reading the posts) for "Create a fantastic item." At least I have a chance to finish that goal.

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@Alkhadias

Are implying the idea of having PvP missions for the PvE oriented people in a cluster where theres 1 PvP island and I think 7 PvE islands is not a bad idea? Wurm's personal goals are one of the dumbest features I have ever seen. To make finishing a game easier for some players and not others just by random is just... weird. The personal goals of your character could not fit your own interest. Nothing drives me away more than a sandbox where it chooses your own destiny. The first sentence you see in the https://www.wurmonline.com website "Wurm Online is the MMORPG where the players are in charge!" and then a little later on it says "Whether you enjoy conquering kingdoms, building your home or hunting dragons, Wurm will let you." You can do what you want, but if you want to win you might have to do things you don't want... Who likes playing a game where they do things they don't want to in order to win the game? I know personal goals isn't the main part of wurm you see people aiming for, and its not a huge widespread issue, but its just dumb seeing it there. 

 

2 hours ago, Alkhadias said:

Every win in a game, life, in your mind has a price. There's nothing for free, and there's nothing supposed to be equally due to all people. If everyone could get everything, there wouldn't be such term as "win" or "lose". That's why people aren't equal as well. There are some, who put a great work, deny everything they had to, and finally they've paid their price to become rewarded. And those, who're claiming they have to got everything just because they can't do something (not technically) or without hard work, or being unable to set aside anything. Those who did and reject everything what's required, have won. Those who didn't, have lost. Simple as that. 

I don't understand why people pay for a game that is very much like their life experiences when they could just experience life. I pay for a game to experience things I don't experience in life. When you make a game why would you say "Lets make it unfair for people just like real life" rather than "Lets make this enjoyable for people to play"

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2 hours ago, Reylaark said:

 

I don't understand how "every single player goal is not doable by pvp players?"

 

All I'm saying is choosing to play pve rather than pvp is a discrete choice.  It's binary for some people.  It's not a little pvp, it's no pvp.

Yes, there are of course work arounds, but I don't think a design that requires little tricks is good.  People shouldn't be killing alts for affinities.  That's abusing a mechanic by using it in a way that was never intended.  I don't care if other people do it, but I do care to know I am not doing it.

 

Even if players who want to become a priest don't want to go to Chaos, they have the option not to.  I see no value in forcing people to go to Chaos.

 

Is there an off chance they meet people to help them get set up?  Not for the people I'm talking about.  I know it's really hard to imagine, but some people don't want to participate in the pvp game.  It's nothing against pvp or pvper's, it's just that they are here only for the pve.  Even if there was no pvp, they would still buy and subscribe to Wurm.  It's not remotely about the pvp for them and never will be.

There is no reason to force them into it, even if it's just nothing more than a time sink to cheat the system as it exists.

 

At that point, it's time to change the system.  All it takes is a switch to denote "no pvp goals wanted."  Easy Peazy, everybody happy.  Those who want to pvp can, those who don't mind can, those who are only interested in Wurm for the pve game and will not play pvp under any circumstances (which is not against any rule at all) can be happy without having to put their integrity into question by using silly little tricks.

 

There's honestly no reason it should bother anyone if another Wurmian just doesn't want to pvp.  It's really not anyone else's business, not to be aggressive at all, just empirically speaking, live and let live.

 

I'm guessing we're not going to agree ;).  I can live with that.  Well, actually, we both agree the other one is wrong, so you know, there's that.

 

I would honestly prefer a "fantastic item" goal than a pvp goal.  I may never achieve it, sure, but it is within the realm of my gameplay.

Ok so by the same token, I could say the 99ql item goal on my personal goals is broken because I dont want to make a 99ql item. I choose to pvp, not pve. So this is an impossible to attain goal? Or the climb a very high mountain one? Or the create a caravel one?

 

No, its not. Its only impossible because I choose not to make that goal. The limitation is one that I imposed on myself. That is the difference between Becoming a Diabolist (impossible to do) or killing another player (easy to do). Heck, its even easier than making a 99ql item.

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8 hours ago, Reylaark said:

Presumably, everyone would eventually have equal opportunity to be annoyed at some point.  If not, they should tell us what they hate doing so we can add it and make them do it.

 

They hate not being able to PvP. Let's add personal goals that state 'You cannot kill another player for X amount of time.' Make it really really long, if not all of their game time, to give them an idea of what it's like being unable to complete something because they can't do what they want, since they enjoy making others do what they don't want to do. The cries from the PvPers would be so loud they'd blow out your eardrums...

 

6 hours ago, Gladiator said:

Not being able to do something no matter what IS a problem

 

I could make the argument that I'm simply not 'able' to PvP because in my mind, PvP is just simply off-limits. There's like a un-break-able wall there. (Not counting the fact that...

 

3 hours ago, Alkhadias said:

You didn't choose an option during registration to enter PvE only servers.

...when I went through the tutorial...the island I chose WAS marked PvE only...because there was one marked PvP which means that's the one to avoid in my mind.) The servers hadn't been all connected up yet at that point. We're talking 4ish YEARS ago. Xanadu didn't even exist yet. Pristine and Release were separate server islands (That were supposedly created around the same time...and were marked as 'newer' on their portals...along with being marked PvE.). Chaos wasn't even connected to anything, it was also it's own solo island. Ranting about how...

 

3 hours ago, Alkhadias said:

You have 2 clusters. Epic and Freedom, and Chaos is a part of Freedom. That's it. You've chosen Freedom, and Chaos is a part of it like any other server.

....it wasn't a part of it. It may have been created in a similar vein on another server, but it most certainly wasn't connected at that point in time. It wasn't 'a part of Freedom'. People can keep bashing on this idea that PvP is the end-all/be-all of your playtime and how much you're in lurv with it, but I certainly have no desire to ever participate. I shouldn't be forced by any game mechanics either, since I effectively chose PvE.

4 hours ago, Alkhadias said:

We're talking about winning a game? You get it?


Actually what's most amusing about this, is that this is a sandbox, and therefore there is no define-able way to 'win'. Just because some devs put together a title/achievement/goodies/whatever to get from doing a pre-set group of goals that are randomly selected at character creation doesn't mean you've 'won' anything. You simply can't 'win' a sandbox because it has no end (Except when they turn the lights off/sunset the server. In effect they've won, because they walked away with all of your money to create said product and be able to feed their families.). There's no real goals, there's no quests, there's nothing to be 'gained' here except for fun on our end. You could argue you 'win' loot, by killing another person/mob/whatever, but it's all pixels that can easily be taken back anytime they so desire to do so. (Or, as stated when the whole ship goes under and they stop the hamsters for good.)

Yeah, I'd love to see a 'feature' of the game (Personal Goals) fixed to be functional, but it's otherwise basically just one more thing a player of a sandbox can ignore if they feel the need. They can just keep doing whatever they enjoy. That's what's fun about a sandbox. Not the throwing sand in others eyes. (Maybe it is fun for some of you, it's not for me.)

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44 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Ok so by the same token, I could say the 99ql item goal on my personal goals is broken because I dont want to make a 99ql item. I choose to pvp, not pve. So this is an impossible to attain goal? Or the climb a very high mountain one? Or the create a caravel one?

 

No, its not. Its only impossible because I choose not to make that goal. The limitation is one that I imposed on myself. That is the difference between Becoming a Diabolist (impossible to do) or killing another player (easy to do). Heck, its even easier than making a 99ql item.

The things you mention are not Player VS Environment.

They are also not remotely unique to either pvp or pve.

 

I honestly can't imagine what you think you stand to gain by forcing people into pvp.

I know, they don't have to pvp, they can just cheat.  Really?

 

I dunno man. Do what y'all want but objectively it's a mistake.  Forcing pvp on non-pvp players never ends well for game populations.

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

The things you mention are not Player VS Environment.

They are also not remotely unique to either pvp or pve.

 

I honestly can't imagine what you think you stand to gain by forcing people into pvp.

I know, they don't have to pvp, they can just cheat.  Really?

 

I dunno man. Do what y'all want but objectively it's a mistake.  Forcing pvp on non-pvp players never ends well for game populations.

 

 

 

The same thing you gain by forcing people into PVE? Or into crafting? It goes both ways. You can't designate a single activity as the -only- no go zone. Just as you hate doing something (pvp in this case) others hate doing what you like (pve or crafting). I know a couple people who would not imp a thing for the life of them. 

57 minutes ago, Corsan said:

 

They hate not being able to PvP. Let's add personal goals that state 'You cannot kill another player for X amount of time.' Make it really really long, if not all of their game time, to give them an idea of what it's like being unable to complete something because they can't do what they want, since they enjoy making others do what they don't want to do. The cries from the PvPers would be so loud they'd blow out your eardrums...

I could make the argument that I'm simply not 'able' to PvP because in my mind, PvP is just simply off-limits. There's like a un-break-able wall there. (Not counting the fact that...

Its very naive of you to make this a pvp vs pve argument. Just because you hate or abhor pvp it doesn't mean the same is true for those of us that enjoy pvp. You know what I've been doing for the past week and a half? Building a deed in Xanadu. I haven't pvped in quite some time, because PVP is not -all- I do. You can be angry at me all you like, but just huffing and puffing at those of us who enjoy pvp will not change the fact that the goal is doable, and rather easy. You don't have to do it, you know, no one is forcing you. I can't get mine done, because I refuse to imp and item over 99ql, yet I am not complaining about how it doesn't carter to my "pvp gamestyle". I simply don't finish that personal goal.

 

 

 

Edited by Angelklaine

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4 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Its very naive of you to make this a pvp vs pve argument. Just because you hate or abhor pvp it doesn't mean the same is true for those of us that enjoy pvp.

 

I'm not making it a PvP vs PvE argument. The devs did that by attempting to force PvP on PvE players.

 

6 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

You can be angry at me all you like, but just huffing and puffing at those of us who enjoy pvp will not change the fact that the goal is doable, and rather easy.

 

lolwut? I'm not angry with you/having a personal problem. I already stated I blew off these 'personal goals' ages ago. I was simply commenting on the thread, and people's replies to me on the matter. You're the one getting all 'BOO HOO HE DON'T LIKEY MAI WAI MAN, WHY HE NOT DO THINGS HOW I WANT THEM? I GON GO THROW FITZ NOW' about it. You did the same thing in the thread where they asked for PvE people's opinions on why they don't PvP and started bashing them for even having a thought on the matter. (The original intent of that thread...) This actually shows more of a thing on your end than it does mine...

 

13 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

You don't have to do it, you know, no one is forcing you.

 

Actually, the devs are forcing us, if we ever want to 'achieve' a 'win' on this game. Like I said, it doesn't bother me that much(I'll likely never bother with these un-complete-able goals and will write it off as another badly made section of a game...of which I've seen plenty in numerous games...not just Wurm.), but it is kinda silly that they have this many players with broken lists/unable to 'finish' goals commenting in here, and haven't done anything to address the problem.

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Crafting is not versus environment but either way, pve, especially as you define it, exists everywhere in Wurm.

PvP does not.  There is a very good reason for that which is not lost on a majority of game designers.

 

Again, when you need silly little workarounds that people really shouldn't be using but wink wink, nudge nudge, it's time to quit game design and find something you have a talent for.

I do not have a talent for game design, but I do have the requisite experience to know that when people tell you they don't want to pvp, and your game is not exclusively pvp, then you accept it, leave them alone, and take their 

money.

 

 

 

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People need to wake up if they think pvp doesn't exist everywhere.  there is a lot of pvp on the pve servers, it's just done via game mechanics and griefing instead of combat

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5 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

Crafting is not versus environment


Going to have to nitpick that comment too...seeing as Player Vs Environment, and crafting involves destroying the environment to create something...chopping down wood, mining out that node of metal, killing an animal (Maybe the only one on the server!) to get those materials you need for crafting. One could argue those aren't crafting, and are the 'gathering' part of the equation...but since you couldn't craft without the gathering, that's basically saying you're playing vs the environment too.

 

7 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

there is a lot of pvp on the pve servers, it's just done via game mechanics and griefing instead of combat

 

Yeah, but technically it's 'against game rules' (Whether enforcement of said rules happens is up in the air.). That's why people prefer PvP, because they can take enforcement into their own hands/get vigilante justice.

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56 minutes ago, Corsan said:

 

Yeah, but technically it's 'against game rules' (Whether enforcement of said rules happens is up in the air.). That's why people prefer PvP, because they can take enforcement into their own hands/get vigilante justice.

I agree with Gary, but he used bad examples. There is also things like two different groups fighting to pen a dragon or other uniques, two different merchants beating each other with better prices or discounts, and other things like two players racing to contest a really nice deed location. Or something as simple as racing to the same node to get those rift materials. That is player vs player and it doesnt require you to go to Chaos. 

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1 hour ago, Angelklaine said:

I agree with Gary, but he used bad examples. There is also things like two different groups fighting to pen a dragon or other uniques, two different merchants beating each other with better prices or discounts, and other things like two players racing to contest a really nice deed location. Or something as simple as racing to the same node to get those rift materials. That is player vs player and it doesnt require you to go to Chaos. 

 

You're highly stretching what game designers refer to as Player Vs Player. Friendly competition is vastly different/a whole other ballgame compared to people knifing/killing each-other just because they can(And looting their corpses).

All of those events you mentioned are 'adjusted as needed' on Wurm/they(GMs) step in when something's going 'overboard' on a PvE server. I've seen them make judgments against people for unique fights, I've seen them force a player to adjust their prices (I have personal experience with this one), and they force one of the people to move (I had a friend who was literally forced off server because he wouldn't 'play well with others' in his neighborhood) if they aren't getting along/duking it out over a location. You seem to be under some false impressions about what's allowed out here. A lot of it is highly regulated/outright against rules.

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The 5 paragraph replies in this thread tell me its pretty much run its course... as most replies are now bickering between players.

 

Not that I expected any other eventuality...

Edited by Nomadikhan
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Just now, Nomadikhan said:

The 5 paragraph rrplies in this thread tell me its pretty much run its course... as most replies are now bickering between players.

 

Not that I expected anything else...

Agreed. 

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Yeah, better shut down more threads and repeat the same shenanigans in each and every one, because civil discourse is dead. It's not allowed for anyone to discuss anything that doesn't support one agenda! /sarcasm

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22 minutes ago, Corsan said:

 

I've seen them force a player to adjust their prices (I have personal experience with this one),

 

While i have no knowledge of such an event, I find it hard to believe such a thing would happen, players are welcome to sell drake sets for 1 copper, or charge 10s per 1k bricks, if this did happen could you PM me with the circumstances? Otherwise it just sounds like skewed perspective "A staff member undercut my prices"

 

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1 hour ago, Corsan said:

 

You're highly stretching what game designers refer to as Player Vs Player. Friendly competition is vastly different/a whole other ballgame compared to people knifing/killing each-other just because they can(And looting their corpses).

Agreed.

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@Corsan: I'm like yourself when it comes to PvP, I never went to PvP server and never will. But... it's my choice. That choice has it's consequences.

I won't be able to complete 5 of my goals. It's as simple as that. When I started playing, I didn't know personal goals exist, found out about them years later. I could change my decision in order to complete the goals (perhaps except the demigod one) but I stand by my original choice. There is nothing more to it, either I go to PvP server and try to "win" the game or I don't. Nobody is stopping me from doing either and nobody is forcing me, it's my choice and my choice alone. It's the same for yourself.

 

Pristine and Release are connected to the rest of the world now so that makes things easier.

 

I could say that I don't play Wurm for PvP or PvE, I play it for the chat and that's all I ever do and it's unfair that I can't "win" the game by chatting to people (I know few people who stopped "playing" and only ever log on for the chat *points finger at Septymon*).

 

I do agree that some of the goals which can't be completed because of bugs or technical reasons like Pristine and Release being their own cluster, should be fixed, no question about it but the reward for completing the goals is worth a lot because it's so hard to either roll an "easy" set of goals or complete the ones we were assigned.

 

I have 11 toons in total, not one of them has only PvE goals, I'm not getting the reward because I CHOOSE not to, just like you do :-)

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I wish i could choose to complete "make a fantastic item" >.>

 

Not wanting to pvp and go to pvp server is at least a choice you made.

Edited by Nadroj
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2 minutes ago, Nadroj said:

I wish i could choose to complete "make a fantastic item" >.>

 

Not wanting to pvp and go to pvp server is at least a choice you made.

i can give you like 20k bricks worth of shards, rank up the rare bonus :D Ill keep the bricks. Sounds like a good plan, doenst it?

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8 minutes ago, Nadroj said:

I wish i could choose to complete "make a fantastic item" >.>

Eh, You can always buy fantastic materials and make w/e is most chance to transfer, probably end up way cheaper than any of the tome goals

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