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madnezz

Terraforming Balance

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Posted (edited)
On 03/03/2018 at 3:23 PM, madnezz said:

The creation of bulk lye is the problem.

This

The demand for concrete (ash) is in such in high demand because.. petraforming requires so bloody much of it. 
This has been exploited by profiteers (not creators) buying all there is to buy to make an astonishing profit margin.
Most of us are happy making what concrete we need because buying it is stupidly expensive due to the high demand. 
So we buy ash instead, cept there is none to buy. 
Those of us that need concrete to create, generally aren't busy blacksmiths or financially well-off.
Even with recent changes, it's not viable for us to accumulate enough ash for our needs. 
You'd think this would be good for the market and economy, supply and demand.. unfortunately the demand (cost) is too high, profit margins, too high.  due to ash being swallowed up, compromise is also impossible. 
Mortar and crushed rock, why do we even use Lye?

 

On 04/03/2018 at 10:01 PM, elroth said:

 

how about this but if you raise a tile like this (rock shards) it will show as a rubble ( or other name) tile. and after its flat you need 1 concrete to smooth the tile and turn it back into a normal floor tile. while its a rubble tile it slows you down.

 

 


Five stars. 
 

Edited by Steveleeb

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I honestly don't think this needs rebalancing. Terraforming rock is supposed to be more arduous than terraforming dirt.

 

I do, however, wish we could lower mine ceilings with concrete, since mining a ceiling is one of the few totally-irreversible things you can still do in a mine (unless you collapse the tile, of course).

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12 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

I honestly don't think this needs rebalancing. Terraforming rock is supposed to be more arduous than terraforming dirt.

 

I do, however, wish we could lower mine ceilings with concrete, since mining a ceiling is one of the few totally-irreversible things you can still do in a mine (unless you collapse the tile, of course).

 

terraforming rock has already been made super easy to lower, you make no sense which leads to it being super irreversible if taken too far

 

at least with ceilings you can collapse and remine

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure what you mean by "super irreversible if taken too far". If you mean mining down the floor in a cave, no, that can't really be irreversible since any depth you can mine can be filled in with concrete. When I said "irreversible" I meant literally irreversible without collapsing.

 

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that ash is much, much easier to get now. Any time you have a furnace lit for more than 30 minutes, you get 3 ash, and the QL can be pretty decent. If you go around and light all your forges and ovens, you get 3 times more ash than you would from an equivalent amount of campfires, you can't fail at it, and the QL is generally higher.

Edited by Ostentatio

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40 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that ash is much, much easier to get now.

 

dream on, its no easier than cranking out coal piles

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A charcoal pile requires 2 kindling, 21 logs, and 2 dirt piles, then 1 kindling to light. A furnace is something you already have and requires 1 kindling to light, and may very well provide you with higher-QL ash than the coal pile will. A furnace is also something you're likely going to be using with some regularity anyway, so you can gradually get more ash without really trying. It only takes a couple minutes for me to walk around and light 10 furnaces with garbage-QL kindling, and I get 30 ash out of it, higher QL than I could make with coal piles. That's certainly what I'd call easier.

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concrete has a limitation of 40 slope, so if you want to raise a tile beyond 40 slope it requires raising all the tiles around it by 40, and if you need to raise that same tile even more than then you must raise another ring of surrounding tiles by 40 slope, this can turn into require an incredible amount of ash/mortar

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:

A charcoal pile requires 2 kindling, 21 logs, and 2 dirt piles, then 1 kindling to light. A furnace is something you already have and requires 1 kindling to light, and may very well provide you with higher-QL ash than the coal pile will. A furnace is also something you're likely going to be using with some regularity anyway, so you can gradually get more ash without really trying. It only takes a couple minutes for me to walk around and light 10 furnaces with garbage-QL kindling, and I get 30 ash out of it, higher QL than I could make with coal piles. That's certainly what I'd call easier.

 

you get 3 ash after 30 minutes of waiting from a forge

 

how is that any easier than building a coal pile?

 

the current system of ash production is meaningless, if I am smithing there is no way I am going to snuff my forge every 30 minutes to spend 1 minute poking around for 3 ash, its silly and a mediocre means to get ash

 

if you were running 10 forges on a light/snuff cycle every 30 minutes you would be far better off just building a few coal piles, it will save you time in the long run

 

one more thing concrete ql is not important, so your whole system of gathering ash being better due to better quality is moot, concrete goes through a tremendous amount of ash, im not talking about 30, if you have a project needing concrete that is a good size scale you are going to need 50k ash, try getting that from a forge

Edited by JakeRivers

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

 

you get 3 ash after 30 minutes of waiting from a forge

 

how is that any easier than building a coal pile?

 

 

Lighting furnaces is easier and quicker than building coal piles and requires fewer resources, and shoveling out your furnaces from time to time is something you'll be able to do as a matter of course, unless you never use your furnaces.

 

Quote

one more thing concrete ql is not important, so your whole system of gathering ash being better due to better quality is moot

 

Ash QL caps lye QL. Lye QL affects concrete creation chance.

 

Quote

if you have a project needing concrete that is a good size scale you are going to need 50k ash, try getting that from a forge

 

If you need tens of thousands of concrete, I can't help but feel that something has gone disastrously wrong with your plan, or your plan is so absurdly convoluted or gigantic that it probably should be a difficult, long-term process. That, or you need a better plan.

Edited by Ostentatio

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Ostentatio said:
Quote

one more thing concrete ql is not important, so your whole system of gathering ash being better due to better quality is moot

 

Ash QL caps lye QL. Lye QL affects concrete creation chance.

 

not a issue for anyone with 70 or higher nat subs

 

none of this is any different than you wanting a short cut to repair your failed ceiling heights

Edited by JakeRivers

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The vast majority of players do not have 70 or higher natural substances skill, so that is still an issue for most people. If it's not an issue for you, then that's nice for you.

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10 hours ago, Ostentatio said:

The vast majority of players do not have 70 or higher natural substances skill, so that is still an issue for most people. If it's not an issue for you, then that's nice for you.

 

So your only problem with this whole situation is that it should be very hard to raise rock outside, or inside with concrete, but should be made easy for someone wanting to change the ceiling height?

 

 

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I don't think it should be much easier or harder to lower ceiling height in a cave than it is to raise floor height.

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On 5/16/2018 at 11:09 AM, Ostentatio said:

Terraforming rock is supposed to be more arduous than terraforming dirt.

 

What are you basing this assumption off of?  If it was true they would not have made surface mining easier while back.

 

On 5/16/2018 at 11:45 AM, Ostentatio said:

I'd also like to mention that ash is much, much easier to get now. Any time you have a furnace lit for more than 30 minutes, you get 3 ash, and the QL can be pretty decent. If you go around and light all your forges and ovens, you get 3 times more ash than you would from an equivalent amount of campfires, you can't fail at it, and the QL is generally higher.

 

That would be a good point but they fell short when implementing this feature, you get 3 ash total per cleaning if a forge etc. is lit for 30 min or more.  It would have been better if the ash accumulated every 30 mins while a forge etc is lit regardless of re-lights between cleanings.

 

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47 minutes ago, madnezz said:

 

What are you basing this assumption off of?  If it was true they would not have made surface mining easier while back.

 

 

Surface mining is still significantly more time-intensive than digging rock. The chance to lower rock is based on skill now, but 70% skill, that's still just a 35% chance instead of the old 20% chance, unlike dirt, which is 100% and allows use of the level and flatten commands, and doesn't require digging down to rock on all 9 corners involved.

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You still didn't answer the question, I think you are just making it up when you say rock must be harder to terraform.

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