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Malena

Would Wurm feel more alive if we could purchase more than just trader/merchant deeds?

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Recently Massively OP did an article on whether bots / AI / NPCs could save "dying mmorpgs". Not that Wurm is dying or anything, but I chimed in with my own response in the comment section (page 2) mentioning Wurm.

 

http://massivelyop.com/2018/02/15/massively-overthinking-could-bots-save-dying-mmorpgs/

 

By coincidence, a few weeks earlier, I had published the latest Ultima Nostalgia project video in which I to go in depth about the loneliness of Wurm & how the lack of NPCs and the silent animals affect the atmosphere of the game. With the NPC mod by bdew, I also populated a city with NPCs to test out and see whether they'd give some life to it or not. Would my theory prove right? 

 

Here is the point from which I start talking about the above (16:35):

 

 

Well now Massively decided to make an article about that video as well, so I thought that if the world was talking about Wurm NPCs, surely this is a topic fitting the forums as well! 

 

http://massivelyop.com/2018/02/19/catching-up-with-the-ultima-nostalgia-project-thats-rebuilding-ultima-online-in-wurm/

 

In that video, I also talk about the suggestion I made many years ago which half were for and half were against. Starting at 29:26, you can see what the city looks like, populated by NPCs:

 

 

Now obviously these NPCs don't do anything else except stand or walk around, but bdew is planning to incorporate a feature where you can choose their animation as well at some point. 

But, I'd still really love if you could have a look, see how you feel after seeing it in action, then share your opinions here. Have the opinions of the opposers changed at all over the years? How do we all feel now that the game is more quiet due to the competition of Wurm Unlimited? Let's discuss!

 

 

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According to me, yes it would spring some life into existing large deeds that are nearly ghost towns.

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I love it.

And I love your sense of decorations. Style and finesse! I often try to do simple and small things like covering the flower pots with a cauldron for a different look or use herb planters as decor. Sometime back I tried enchanting young fir and lemon trees and place a planter under them to look like potted trees. I thought enchanted they wouldn't grow. Sadly, they did so I abandoned the idea :P

Wurm has so much potential if only someone would play around with the stuff already designed and add more game items.

 

Now to the matter at hand.

I've always felt like Wurm was created as a java clicker. (some of us remember the old right click menu crafting repetitions, at the borders of carpal tunnel syndrome)

A game that makes money by the time you spend on it. So everything had to be time wasting. So it takes time to make a pottery planter even if it's the simplest thing. But the endgame content was abruptly cut off and not worked out much. You make rings and bracelets from day one in jewelsmithing but years later with skill 90 there's nothing new to bring into the world. No more complicated and intricate design you picked up as a lifelong master jeweler.

 

It was the same with kingdoms, PvP, Valrei gods, sorcery tomes (later) and more recently Rifts. Roughly tossed in game without detailing and thought out mechanics.

The main idea used to be "the secrecy effect". Don't talk about some things, don't explain how they work or what they do, and gamers won't be disappointed or ask for more tweaks. Eventually, we learned and we did. But time was already gained and when the subject finally came up, there was still more time to work on it and apply a "fix". So there are no quests or missions in Wurm. There are no PvP scenarios of commerce or war. No PvE content within a lore context. No Lore. At all.

 

It was always easy to brush this too under a carpet by declaring Wurm a pure sandbox game where "we let the players create their own content". But the purpose was never "the Fun". It was the spending time. The recent -brilliant- cooking system was so easily adopted as a coding project because it adds more to that. More time to click around and do things.

But will we ever see orcs setting up camp and working together? No. Will hungry bears go out of their way to attack villages for food? Nop. Will cows stop spending their lives up on steep rock cliffs? Or chicken spawn in farms instead of everywhere else? Rats spawn in harbors and run on ship ropes? Better yet, will we ever see a reason for a war or trade between kingdoms? Is there some content that would reward players to play on a "PvP" server?

What would the players want?

 

The players are what ruins the games. I've had this talk with some friends from Gamasutra some years back. In other games, players were happy if nobody spawnkilled them. In Wurm PvP they want to be left alone to skill up, build a base (preferably the 'perfect' fortress atop impossible dirtwalls) and gear up and THEN come out to PvP when they want at their own leisure. And then, if they die, the rage on forums about how 3 enemies ganked up on them and how lame Wurm PvP is.

So what would the players want?  -Ideally, to win. Be a super awesome hero unlike anyone has seen on the land. So Wurm gives them WUnlimited. Be whatever you want in your own "hacked" world. Now, would random NPCs be good and give depth to the world? Depends. In your own private world or Wurm Online?

 

In another discussion with beta testers, we wondered what was it we loved most in the old Dark Age of Camelot mmo. Sure, over the years passed and with the mmo flops that followed, many talk about the RvR PvP. But back then we knew what made us all enamored with that game. It was the lore. It was the premise we were given. NPCs we could only find at night, factions that would hate us if we did this or that and factions that would love us for it. The consequences. The smart dialogues with the NPCs. The "epic quest lines" firstly introduced back then. The vague lost lores of older civilizations long gone. Things we were given. Not asked for. We are all spoiled brats that want everything. But an interesting game is one that gives a context and a frame. If those are linked to lore -all the best.

 

We build taverns and harbors. Nobody visits. Do you wonder why? Because we have the freedom to eat and moor anywhere. If ships could only moor in harbors and when not moored they could drift in the water, your harbor would be used. If you needed a campfire or a tavern to eat your food, people would use your tavern.

If you could only logout by sleeping in a bed or a tent (and these tents are a joke btw), your Inn would be visited. If there was a rule saying you can't wear armor and weapons in town -by some town marshal- and the clothing system was also reworked (maybe add hats, scarves, dresses(!), various shoes and boots, capes,,.) there would be reasons to wear clothes.

It's restrictions we miss, not freedom.

 

As things stand, should I be content with what the game is? Would I like human NPCs to pretend my village isn't a barren waste of time? Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######? Meh :P sure, why not.

Since there's never a reason in game to become a villager myself and live with others, I might as well be a mayor of my own ghost town and live with my dolls...

 

 

 

PS. Yes, I do have ideas and suggestions on all things mentioned above. But Wurm has taught me: Devs don't listen to ideas, they listen to the masses of players and then compare the time used Vs immediate revenue gained. Apparently, I'd have more success pitching ideas to WU moders

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4 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

And I love your sense of decorations. Style and finesse! I often try to do simple and small things like covering the flower pots with a cauldron for a different look or use herb planters as decor. Sometime back I tried enchanting young fir and lemon trees and place a planter under them to look like potted trees. I thought enchanted they wouldn't grow. Sadly, they did so I abandoned the idea

 

Aw thank you! Well you know, I was never much into decorating in Wurm Online since each item you build is such a big investment, so it's harder to take risks. But playing around with Wurm Unlimited has really changed that for me. I would recommend that every single wurm player buys wurm unlimited if for now other reason than to play around with the god tools and test designs out, create items and see what works and what doesn't, then take those learnings back into wurm online and properly implement those ideas there. So much better when you know exactly what you want to do and what things you'll need for it!

 

4 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

I've always felt like Wurm was created as a java clicker. (some of us remember the old right click menu crafting repetitions, at the borders of carpal tunnel syndrome)

A game that makes money by the time you spend on it. So everything had to be time wasting. So it takes time to make a pottery planter even if it's the simplest thing. But the endgame content was abruptly cut off and not worked out much. You make rings and bracelets from day one in jewelsmithing but years later with skill 90 there's nothing new to bring into the world. No more complicated and intricate design you picked up as a lifelong master jeweler.

 

Interesting. You know I've never thought about it from that perspective before. I've always just thought that stuff takes a long time to give it value. If it took three days to have 99.9 blacksmithy skill, what prestige would be in that? I remember in Ultima Online, I trained up my animal tamer to become "grand master" and it took about a year. I was so proud of my achievement, and how rewarding it felt to tame my first dragon!!! It was still a time when the game was not infiltrated with grand master tamers and I got to enjoy the prestige of being one of the few for a while. Then they nerfed the skill and suddenly you could become grand master in 3 months or even less. Before you know it, the game was overrun with grand master tamers selling their dragons. I was DEVASTATED.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I personally ENJOY the harshness of Wurm and how long it takes to master stuff. It's one of the things that I fell in love with when I started playing. I love that it's so tedious and hard!

As long as I can feel safe that the game will stick around long enough for me to enjoy reaching those goals, I'm happy and will continue playing. I'm really hoping that the design had this in mind, and not just a lazy way to make money. 

 

I will agree fully and whole heartedly though, that the end game needs a lot of love to make it feel amazing and rewarding to reach those high goals. And once in a while we see this love coming through with the introduction of things you can only do with a high skill. We need more of those though!

 

5 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

No PvE content within a lore context. No Lore. At all.

 

You know, I might be in the minority here, but the fact that Wurm has had no lore or quests has been one of it's charms for me. It feels much more like a world belonging to me and my fellow players, a place where we create the lore as we go along. At the other end of the spectrum would be something like WoW or SWTOR, where I can consume the quests and lore as a form of entertainment, but due to the world already having a pre-existing story, I never felt like I belong there. I was merely the visitor of someone else's place and anything I did in the world would be saturated with imaginary stories that had no relevance to how I saw my character and her life. Wurm offers an open ended existance, and complete freedom to create stories and history of legendary players, cities and events.

 

5 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

But will we ever see orcs setting up camp and working together? No. Will hungry bears go out of their way to attack villages for food? Nop. Will cows stop spending their lives up on steep rock cliffs? Or chicken spawn in farms instead of everywhere else? Rats spawn in harbors and run on ship ropes?

 

 

I don't see why we couldn't see such things in the future. It's just a cold fact that when an entire MMO is being run by such a tiny tiny team, they obviously have to pick and choose what types of things they can afford to spend time on. I highly doubt it has anything to do with them not wanting to or being disinterested in making the game more realistic or fun for the players. 

 

5 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

In another discussion with beta testers, we wondered what was it we loved most in the old Dark Age of Camelot mmo. Sure, over the years passed and with the mmo flops that followed, many talk about the RvR PvP. But back then we knew what made us all enamored with that game. It was the lore. It was the premise we were given. NPCs we could only find at night, factions that would hate us if we did this or that and factions that would love us for it. The consequences. The smart dialogues with the NPCs. The "epic quest lines" firstly introduced back then. The vague lost lores of older civilizations long gone. Things we were given. Not asked for. We are all spoiled brats that want everything. But an interesting game is one that gives a context and a frame. If those are linked to lore -all the best.

 

I played DaoC back when it first launched in EU and although I played mainly as a solo PvE player, I still enjoyed the magic of that game very much indeed. Admittedly, the lore and the NPC dialogues were great! It was one of those few MMOs where I actually enjoyed the lore and dialogue. That said, DaoC offers a different experience than Wurm and as much as I enjoyed that aspect of DaoC, I would not want to necessarily see that in Wurm. It would steal away the thing I was talking about earlier, about feeling like this is -our- world, not the world of imaginary characters with a fake backstory. 

 

5 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

We build taverns and harbors. Nobody visits. Do you wonder why? Because we have the freedom to eat and moor anywhere. If ships could only moor in harbors and when not moored they could drift in the water, your harbor would be used. If you needed a campfire or a tavern to eat your food, people would use your tavern.

If you could only logout by sleeping in a bed or a tent (and these tents are a joke btw), your Inn would be visited. If there was a rule saying you can't wear armor and weapons in town -by some town marshal- and the clothing system was also reworked (maybe add hats, scarves, dresses(!), various shoes and boots, capes,,.) there would be reasons to wear clothes.

It's restrictions we miss, not freedom.

 

Here we come to the part of your response which I personally find the most compelling and thought provoking. While I do not agree with forcing players to do something (which creates tedium, and in all honesty I don't think wurm can afford to add additional layers that will make the game more tedious), I very much support the idea of giving added benefits to the things you mentioned. 

 

So instead of restricting mooring to harbors, introduce a new type of NPC called a "Dock Master" that players can plant on their docks. Not everyone wants a whole bunch of strangers clogging up their docks with their ships you see. So with this option, it would leave it as something a deed owner could choose to do and choose to communicate to other players: "See? I have a dock master, you're welcome here". Visitors could pay the dockmaster a miniscule rental fee for docking their ship and the benefit is that the ship starts to accumulate "sleep bonus", which will make it sail faster for a limited amount of time. Or else decay stops during the time the rent is valid. So if you wanted to take an extended break from wurm, you could park your boat at a place like this, pay enough "rent" to last say 6 months and when you'd come back, your ship would be ready and waiting without decay.

 

The game would be horribly tedious if you could only eat at taverns or with a campfire. Again, instead of restricting, add a bonus instead. Perhaps food eaten in such places makes the effect last three times longer before you have to eat again, or heightens it's other bonuses. 

 

I would not agree with the no-armor rule either, as that would ruin it for people who want to roleplay a character that way. Instead, how about we start making clothes a little bit more beautiful? The designs are pretty uh... ugly. I've never felt any motivation to go to the trouble of making any of them for my character due to that. Maybe wearing clothes would give a bonus of feeling lighter, being able to walk faster and without draining stamina so badly. Again, let's not restrict, but encourage players with added benefits. 

 

5 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

As things stand, should I be content with what the game is? Would I like human NPCs to pretend my village isn't a barren waste of time? Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######? Meh :P sure, why not.

Since there's never a reason in game to become a villager myself and live with others, I might as well be a mayor of my own ghost town and live with my dolls...

 

Well your response to this is overflowing with sarcasm and is merely a tool for you to prove your argument about how lacking the game is in your opinion. It also distorts, disregards and misunderstands my original intentions, and makes me look like a fool for even asking for this sort of thing. Hopefully unintentionally. That's very unfortunate. I'm sorry you're feeling so disheartened with the game. But regardless of how you feel, I and many others love Wurm with a passion. And while the game is certainly lacking in some areas and is rough on the edges, to me it is still absolutely mind boggling to see what such a small team has been able to accomplish. I want the very best for this game and for us to move forward with positivity, accepting each contribution the team make as yet another bonus to add to the game we're all enjoying (or else we wouldn't be here, right?).

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Great idea Malena! Non player characters that even have some dialog and scripting would really bring to life the towns and cities in Wurm, I really enjoy my wagoneer atm even though it's very basic. I would even go as far as saying - allow some npc's with interaction, like you ask a bartender for a drink in chat or something. You could even hire npc priests to help with sermons maybe. If they give us the tools we could even create quests using them for people maybe. One can dream I guess, that would really be sandboxy.

Edited by Niki
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1 hour ago, Malena said:

Well your response to this is overflowing with sarcasm and is merely a tool for you to prove your argument about how lacking the game is in your opinion. It also distorts, disregards and misunderstands my original intentions, and makes me look like a fool for even asking for this sort of thing. Hopefully unintentionally. That's very unfortunate. I'm sorry you're feeling so disheartened with the game. But regardless of how you feel, I and many others love Wurm with a passion. And while the game is certainly lacking in some areas and is rough on the edges, to me it is still absolutely mind boggling to see what such a small team has been able to accomplish. I want the very best for this game and for us to move forward with positivity, accepting each contribution the team make as yet another bonus to add to the game we're all enjoying (or else we wouldn't be here, right?).

2

 

Well if I thought I'd have to go paragraph by paragraph defending my opinion, I would have thought twice before posting. Be it as it may...

My opinion of you and your ideas isn't demeaning nor sarcastic. And I do love Wurm, probably more than you. You see, you represent the people who find no wrong with the game. You like what's there and want more of it. -Myself, I'm with the people who find it leaning towards a vanity-box rather than a sandbox. And yet.. Since 2013 I STILL can't quit it. My words aren't meant to be sarcastic. It's a matter of fact that our community consists of both carebears with flowerbeds outside their door as well as fanatic skillers that just need to reach max ranks. Nothing wrong with that. But there was another playerbase among us, that of players who found Wurm a potential battleground, a world that could be shaped and conquered just the same.

Many of you might recognize the playerbase I speak of. Back when whole kingdoms didn't disband as a last resort to protest to our GMs. Those who -to this day- run around looking for reasons not to quit. Some of them were the reason Wurm got worse, others made it better.

 

Now, what I did in my response wasn't to counter a good idea. It would be great if we could have the NPCs you speak of. I don't even agree with those saying "don't ask for stupid things when devs could be working on important stuff". No... Every good idea is worth its own spotlight.

I just want to say "Yes, this is a great idea, but we won't be content just to play in our own little dollhouses, we still want content. We still think the Valrei should be reworked, the missions suck, the mob spawns are flawed, the animal crates are important, Rifts could have a backstory and some impact if left open. We want priests worked, sorcery possible for everyone, and a reason to PvP."

 

Why do I mention these in your post? Exactly because I find it such a good idea that it may steer interest (of players) into other things and ultimately change the future of Wurm. Once we have NPCs, the next step will be to code them to do our chores. To "hire" them for bonuses -as you also mentioned.

I disagree on that.

 

You see.. (and -again- I'm not trying to look down on you) I come from Epic cluster and I know how it is to have Valrei spirits spawn in your spawn city and people not coming out to clear them. I know how it is to have Rifts open for days because there's not enough population interested to go close them. I know how it feels to be alone on your deed not seeing a soul in local for months. I still live on such a deed -in Xanadu.

The population has dropped and keeps dropping. I don't want new incentives for people to stay in their bed. I want them to have reasons to visit a capital, a neighbor's deed, another server. I want the King's coffers constantly EMPTY for them until they realize -they never actually helped their king with anything.

I want spells failing until they realize they didn't do enough missions for their deity to be asking for this power.

 

And I do disagree strongly with you on the "added benefits". Benefits for who? Those who pay for extra NPC helpers and "Dockmasters"? Those who want to leave the game for months and return without decay on their ships? No, I'm vertically against you on that. What about the sense of accomplishment? You get that by slowly grinding a skill to 100, but many of us don't. Even you create a village you like and want to share it with the world. You want others to see it. Why would I come?

To pay an added bonus to something? That's the same superficial thinking the community had so far. If my NPC tells me of a tale that his brother in law NPC on your village knows where the Rare large oak shield of X warrior is buried, -there! I have a reason to visit your village and a quest on my hands.

 

Anyway, I'm bored typing. I just want to say -don't just ask for new dolls to play with, consider a bigger picture of what Wurm world could be.

 

(and don't be the typical forum dweller defending his post paragraph by paragraph :D Sometimes it's nice to let other people state their opinions too)

 

Edited by KalinMenajin

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23 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

As things stand, should I be content with what the game is? Would I like human NPCs to pretend my village isn't a barren waste of time? Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######? Meh :P sure, why not.

Since there's never a reason in game to become a villager myself and live with others, I might as well be a mayor of my own ghost town and live with my dolls...

 

The thing is we all play the game for our own reasons and satisfaction. Mine is for building my "ghost towns", as you call them. The game has this concept as a major part of the game design and yeah, I am content with the direction in which this is (and has been) proceeding. This means in contrast to yourself I am not dissatisfied with the game in the areas which you mention in your post, which the Developers are not focusing upon. The problem as I see it is that some players such as yourself want the game to be shaped into something that it is not. Wurm in not another game, nor does it need to offer their style of play.

 

17 hours ago, Malena said:

Well your response to this is overflowing with sarcasm and is merely a tool for you to prove your argument about how lacking the game is in your opinion. It also distorts, disregards and misunderstands my original intentions, and makes me look like a fool for even asking for this sort of thing. Hopefully unintentionally. That's very unfortunate. I'm sorry you're feeling so disheartened with the game. But regardless of how you feel, I and many others love Wurm with a passion. And while the game is certainly lacking in some areas and is rough on the edges, to me it is still absolutely mind boggling to see what such a small team has been able to accomplish. I want the very best for this game and for us to move forward with positivity, accepting each contribution the team make as yet another bonus to add to the game we're all enjoying (or else we wouldn't be here, right?).

 

Back on to the point here of Malena's post topic, the ability to add NPC's to Villages, which you mention as an end note to your other unrelated ideas for game improvement. I have to agree with what she has stated here, as throughout your post their is an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the game. I am a bit disturbed to see that she has taken this to heart in some personal way. Yet, I am sure she will soon set this aside and continue on with her positive ideas for her WU project and in turn improvement suggestions for Wurm Online.

 

Yep, we all have our opinions on how the game should be improved but it would be nice not to kick sand in another's face in the process of sharing them.

 

=Ayes=

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It might help... For a while.   Npcs aren't lifelike and would only be a matter of time before we grow bored.

Edited by Nomadikhan

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:54 PM, KalinMenajin said:

Well if I thought I'd have to go paragraph by paragraph defending my opinion, I would have thought twice before posting.

 

You know, I could swear that I used around 45 minutes of my precious free time last night to read carefully through your post,  ponder what you'd said and respond with thoughtful answers to the various points. (even though, you had clearly not come here to actually discuss the actual topic but to use this thread as a vehicle for your mission and to rant about the things you believe in, which you've undoubtedly done many many many times before in these forums). The only part I reacted negatively to was the second last paragraph.  Was it too much to handle? As you said to me yourself, "sometimes it's nice to let other people state their opinions too". This goes both ways my friend. Listen, if you write something on the Internet, be prepared to receive criticism as well. 

 

Let me break down why I reacted to your second last paragraph that way, as it clearly was not obvious to you:

 

"Would I like human NPCs to pretend my village isn't a barren waste of time?"

This implies that anyone willing to build a village and fill it with NPCs is delusional, as if they're purposely ignoring what is actually wrong with the game and happy just pretending that everything is fine and dandy in their own little playground. 

 

"Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######?"

This goes even further in painting players like myself in a delusional light. As if we will create NPCs and pretend they are our friends. The disdain you feel towards someone who would want to do that is literally oozing through. 

 

"Meh :P sure, why not."

With this phrase you make sure to indicate that you are of a higher caliber than us "delusional ghost town builders". "Sure, let the simpletons have their NPCs if they want to"

 

"Since there's never a reason in game to become a villager myself and live with others, I might as well be a mayor of my own ghost town and live with my dolls..."

Again more of the same. As if NPCs are dolls to us and we want to pretend that they're real people. 

 

And you're surprised by the backlash? 

 

Besides, you're completely missing the point. Let's stop to think of all of the things in Wurm which "give it life". (excluding visitations from real players)

  • The way the grass moves in the wind
  • The waves on the sea
  • The sound of the wind and water
  • The sound of ducks or a wolf howling
  • The way animals are animated
  • The fact that the time of day and weather changes
  • How the clouds move over the sky
  • The tower guards walking about. 

The way I see NPCs is that they are in all simplicity, one of these things

 

Imagine if all of the above was not in the game: The grass would stay motionless; there would be no movement of the water or clouds or animals; There would be no sounds; Guards would stand rigidly in place without flinching. Would the game not feel "lifeless"? And yet I don't see you saying: "Sure, have your little "pets" and name them fluffy, if it floats your boat". "Sure, listen to the wind and try and feel free to imagine you're living in a real world". 

 

The contempt you feel for players that would want NPCs is a bit silly really, since you willingly enjoy all of these other elements that "give life" to the game - do you not? NPCs really are no different. 

 

On 2/20/2018 at 9:54 PM, KalinMenajin said:

You see, you represent the people who find no wrong with the game. You like what's there and want more of it.

 

Really? That must explain why I've made many many suggestions in the suggestions forum over the years. Or it must explain the video I did about how animals make no sounds. Or it must explain why I critique certain elements of Wurm in my videos and talk about how they could be better. 

 

Let me be absolutely clear: there is still a lot to improve in Wurm and I'm all for improvements that players suggest or that the wurm team have time to fix, but I just think that improvements need to be considered carefully - thinking of the bigger picture. (for instance how does your dock idea consider those players who don't want visitors cramming all their boats on their deed).

 

They should also be presented in a helpful and positive manner. I can understand that if you've played the game for a long time and love it "more than I do", that your passion to make the game great is strong, but the way you go about it has us only focus on how bad the game is instead of getting excited about it's potential. You also talk like the dev team would be much larger than it is. If there were 100 developers working on Wurm instead of... what is it... around 10? I'm sure many amazing things could be done along the lines of the dreams you have. 

Edited by Malena
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  • The sound of ducks or a wolf howling

They tried this a few times, issue is that a lot of deeds have tons of animals which created massive amounts of noise pollution

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How did such a constructive thread devolve into an argumentative debacle in the day I did not come to read it? I thought this was a very good idea and suddenly there is a completely unnecessary fistfight... What?

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2 hours ago, Mclavin said:

"not that wurm is dying" 

 

-stops reading-

 

 

Really constructive comment, glad to see you're helping....

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55 minutes ago, thekraken said:

 

 

Really constructive comment, glad to see you're helping....

About as much as your comment has been I suppose.

 

Although to be honest, he has been helping much more than you'd think. If you'd be privy to certain conversations, you'd be suprised of all the changes that have been brought into the game by his ideas. There are other ways to effect change other than rambling on pointlessly on a forum thread.

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It never ceases to amaze me how the quick are the toxic PVP people in trying to turn any positive thread into a dumpster... That's why you can't have nice things.

 

I've been thinking about this for a while now, i've made the existing NPC mod but i'm not happy with with what i made... NPCs that just wander around like automatons, even if made to be better at wandering and show animations and whatever are just glorified decorations, which is nice but will get boring pretty quickly and become part of the background. For now it's just an emulation of life, and not a very good one at that.

 

I think we can do better. What if instead of an emulation there could be a simulation?

 

What if those NPCs actually had needs that need to be filled, and the ability to produce something in return? 

 

A farmer is assigned to some fields, he wakes up in the morning and goes to tend to them, maybe harvests some crops which he then brings  to the cook and the brewer to make food/booze.

 

In the evening they all gather up in the tavern to eat, drink and have some fun (each of those is a "need" that needs to be filled). They also have houses that they go to for the night and get some rest (also a "need").

 

There could be a miner, that mines metal and brings it to a blacksmith that uses it to repair/improve the tools of the other townsfolk.

 

They could have a "security" need, so that you need to hire guards for them to feel safe (and those guards would also need food, drinks, etc.)

 

And then you get a tax collector, that goes through the other town folk and collects something that could be of value to the player.

 

There are dozens of other jobs that could be thought off and become part of that system.

 

I think something like that could not only liven up the ghost towns but also provide a completely new facet of gameplay that will be both interesting to existing players and have a potential to draw in new players from other genres as well.

 

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Sounds like Sims - Wurm Edition :D

 

If it can be done without completely lagging out the server it sounds fun. Let's face it: WO will never see massive numbers of players, so lively villages/cities with players only will remain to be the exception.

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15 minutes ago, Eltaran said:

Sounds like Sims - Wurm Edition :D

 

I was more thinking Dwarf Fortress or maybe the Settlers.

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2 hours ago, bdew said:

It never ceases to amaze me how the quick are the toxic PVP people in trying to turn any positive thread into a dumpster... That's why you can't have nice things.

It never ceases to amaze me how quick you are to label people and bunch them up together and call entire groups toxic over opinions you may disagree with. Some of the most toxic people in these forums with mile long warning records have never set a foot on Chaos. If you dont like what someone says or does dont crucify an entire group. Point them out individually.

Edited by Angelklaine
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2 hours ago, bdew said:

I've been thinking about this for a while now, i've made the existing NPC mod but i'm not happy with with what i made... NPCs that just wander around like automatons, even if made to be better at wandering and show animations and whatever are just glorified decorations, which is nice but will get boring pretty quickly and become part of the background. For now it's just an emulation of life, and not a very good one at that.

 

Well hey, it's a first pass and it's got the ball rolling, so this is definitely a step in the right direction! Even if they were left to be as simple as wandering around and showing animations, I still think that's better than not having them at all. Could we even imagine the cities of WoW, GW2, SWTOR etc or pretty much any other MMO out there without NPCs? They'd be terribly empty and lifeless. NPCs bring life, just like our horses, cows and guards do. 

 

2 hours ago, bdew said:

I think we can do better. What if instead of an emulation there could be a simulation?

 

Heck, I'll take it! I mean the things you speak of are something I haven't even dared to dream about. I always find myself wishing for the bare minimum in this game because I know there are not the resources to implement it.

 

2 hours ago, bdew said:

I think something like that could not only liven up the ghost towns but also provide a completely new facet of gameplay that will be both interesting to existing players and have a potential to draw in new players from other genres as well.

 

What you describe, sounds like so much fun! 

 

Obviously the dream scenario would be that all of those roles were filled by actual players, but it's just never going to happen in this game due to it's small player base and the nature of human beings wanting to move on to bigger and better things. So that reality accepted, your proposition would certainly be the next best thing!

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As for the toxicity this discussion spiraled down to, my apologies folks. I should have never let myself become triggered. I was just having "I ain't putting up with anyone's snarky BS" day. Hopefully we can continue the discussion in a more positive and helpful light!

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4 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

About as much as your comment has been I suppose.

 

Although to be honest, he has been helping much more than you'd think. If you'd be privy to certain conversations, you'd be suprised of all the changes that have been brought into the game by his ideas. There are other ways to effect change other than rambling on pointlessly on a forum thread.

I know he's done plenty, poking fun at his tactless forum posts.

 

Now to contribute to this thread, I won't really comment on the NPC's coming to WU but I will say that is one of the most beautiful and highly detailed area's I've ever seen in wurm, great job I'd love to see more projects like this just for the pure creativity. 

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Do admit the game need a resource sink for meat and other resources which this could be used on

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As a filthy slimy toxic pvper that has played mostly on freedom for the last half year~ + I think npcs normally work out very well in many other games, like it's fairly evident in a game like skyrim with a similar setting how good it is to have npcs blacksmithing, npcs cooking, npcs walking into walls and falling into the rivers, npcs shopping at the npc merchants, etc.  In wurm I don't think it would work without a serious ai overhaul.  Current npcs in wurm are very creepy, especially those wagoneers.  If a village was full of npcs like that, wurm would quickly become a horror game

 

It would even probably be funny for pvp deeds if npcs (non-trader/merchant/bartender) were killable but respawn like guards and say something witty/corny in local on death

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Disclaimer: The following relates to WU only, not interested in instituting change to WO as it belongs to others and I have no desire to affect their world.

 

The thought of a tax collector had me worried.  They're always so mean! :P  I would prefer my npc's see me as a benevolent provider, choosing to offer tribute voluntarily.

 

It did get me thinking though, would npc's have personalities?  Would my farmer be a sarcastic woman?  My bartender a pessimistic old mumbler?  That newest guard a young, excited and ambitious lad?

 

Then reality struck.  Look at animal ai.  It's all we can do to keep them from bunching up in a corner.  How great would it be for wolves to hunt in packs?  For mama bear to be fiercely protective of her cubs?  That seems simpler than imparting individuality to npc's, and yet it hasn't proven trivial an endeavor.

 

I do really like the notion of npc villagers that need my management skills, my coordination and provision.

What if we had a limited labor force that didn't have to work for you, but chose to if conditions are amenable?  Similar to getting bees to populate a new hive you've built.  The essentials must be built for villagers to come to you, and to stay.

 

Rather than having deed upkeep and maintenance relate to silver, could that be the work of our npc's?  If you are not there to manage them, they eventually move on and your deed falls?

 

If not personalities, then maybe attributes.  I'm thinking of Black Desert Online.  Some are better for hard labor.  Some for more complex tasks.  Thinks like Strength, Intelligence, Charisma, Temperament.  Maybe these attributes grow over their time with you?  Maybe you can refer your more advanced npc's to another village (for a finder's fee, of course) when a new npc face shows up you want to take in. 

 

Fun stuff to think about.  Thanks for starting the discussion Malena!

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1 minute ago, MrGARY said:

As a filthy slimy toxic pvper that has played mostly on freedom for the last half year~ + I think npcs normally work out very well in many other games, like it's fairly evident in a game like skyrim with a similar setting how good it is to have npcs blacksmithing, npcs cooking, npcs walking into walls and falling into the rivers, npcs shopping at the npc merchants, etc.  In wurm I don't think it would work without a serious ai overhaul.  Current npcs in wurm are very creepy, especially those wagoneers.  If a village was full of npcs like that, wurm would quickly become a horror game

 

It would even probably be funny for pvp deeds if npcs (non-trader/merchant/bartender) were killable but respawn like guards and say something witty/corny in local on death

 

Haha! Now that you mention it, Wurm characters (not just NPCs) -ARE- creepy! I remember being a newbie with my tiny 1x1 tile house and suddenly seeing some dude staring blatantly (and blankly) at me through my window. Freaked me the hell out! 

Seriously though, why are they so creepy? Is it because the characters are so rigid, which gives them a robotic feel?

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