Would Wurm feel more alive if we could purchase more than just trader/merchant deeds?

[Angelklaine 4,266]

He is so right lol.

[Malena 2,854]

2 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

It did get me thinking though, would npc's have personalities?  Would my farmer be a sarcastic woman?  My bartender a pessimistic old mumbler?  That newest guard a young, excited and ambitious lad?

 

That would be really fun! In UO the NPCs periodically utter a phrase, either from just talking to themselves or if a player speaks a certain keyword in their vicinity. It would be cool if you could set the personality type from a drop down and the collection of predefined phrases would come out based on that. 

 

2 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

Then reality struck.  Look at animal ai.  It's all we can do to keep them from bunching up in a corner.  How great would it be for wolves to hunt in packs?  For mama bear to be fiercely protective of her cubs?  That seems simpler than imparting individuality to npc's, and yet it hasn't proven trivial an endeavor.

 

Argh! So true. And just imagining how immersive it would be if they did the things you described... aaahhh that would be sooo nice!

 

2 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

I do really like the notion of npc villagers that need my management skills, my coordination and provision.

What if we had a limited labor force that didn't have to work for you, but chose to if conditions are amenable?  Similar to getting bees to populate a new hive you've built.  The essentials must be built for villagers to come to you, and to stay.

 

I love it! It would simulate giving them a will of their own and give incentive to take good care of them! Imagine logging onto the game, only to find that two new farmer NPCs strolling around your village, waiting for stuff to do, perhaps uttering phrases like "This place looks like it would have some work for me" or "This village seems like a place I'd like to live". Then of course you should have the option to drive them away perhaps right clicking and dismissing them and then they'd walk off into the yonder and then dissipate into thin air, but then also the option to have them properly join the village by right clicking and choosing "Hire".

 

Oh my gosh, that would be so fun. 

 

2 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

If not personalities, then maybe attributes.  I'm thinking of Black Desert Online.  Some are better for hard labor.  Some for more complex tasks.  Thinks like Strength, Intelligence, Charisma, Temperament.  Maybe these attributes grow over their time with you?  Maybe you can refer your more advanced npc's to another village (for a finder's fee, of course) when a new npc face shows up you want to take in. 

 

Very interesting! I certainly enjoyed "training up" my pets in Ultima Online, and if I remember correctly, the companions of SWTOR also level up and improve over time, or was it directly linked to your own character's level, I can't remember. But in any case, if the NPCs could progress over time, that would be amazing. 

 

Oh and by the way, here is how players can control their NPCs in Ultima Online: 

 

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/npc-commercial-transactions/npcs-player-owned/

 

 

[Brew 116]

have a wagoneer like npc, that works as a traveling merchant is a thought that came to mind after reading this malena.  Could have different ones for each of the template gods as well, if you want more options. 

 

keep up the positive work btw!

[KalinMenajin 100]

I read your post and watched your video in a sincere and positive way. It rubbed me so nicely, that I found myself hoping it would be true and at same time wondering what would affect if it was. Certain issues jumped to my head and I thought it was nice to mention them and consider it all a "bundle post" directed at any and all Wurm devs that might read it. I wrote my comments politely, but -yes, I was sarcastic and disappointed. Many players would understand the feeling and sympathize. Those who have never known Wurm-fatigue can never understand. But I never attacked you personally. I never called you names, or claim the NPCs are a bad idea. I merely called them a vanity demand in my own words. But calling me toxic?

 

On 2/20/2018 at 2:24 PM, KalinMenajin said:

I love it.

And I love your sense of decorations. Style and finesse! I often try to do simple and small things like covering the flower pots with a cauldron for a different look or use herb planters as decor. Sometime back I tried enchanting young fir and lemon trees and place a planter under them to look like potted trees. I thought enchanted they wouldn't grow. Sadly, they did so I abandoned the idea

Wurm has so much potential if only someone would play around with the stuff already designed and add more game items.

 

A Toxic PvP player? Really?  

 

On 2/20/2018 at 8:31 PM, Malena said:

I was never much into decorating in Wurm Online since each item you build is such a big investment, so it's harder to take risks. But playing around with Wurm Unlimited has really changed that for me. I would recommend that every single wurm player buys wurm unlimited if for now other reason than to play around with the god tools 

-Really.. That's what you suggest huh? Interesting...  >.>

 

I don't see why we couldn't see such things in the future. It's just a cold fact that when an entire MMO is being run by such a tiny tiny team, they obviously have to pick and choose what types of things they can afford to spend time on.

-Remember you said that. -I didn't

 

I played DaoC back when it first launched in EU and although I played mainly as a solo PvE player, I still enjoyed the magic of that game very much indeed. Admittedly, the lore and the NPC dialogues were great! It was one of those few MMOs where I actually enjoyed the lore and dialogue. That said, DaoC offers a different experience than Wurm and as much as I enjoyed that aspect of DaoC, I would not want to necessarily see that in Wurm.

-No, just UO -right?

 

I would not agree with the no-armor rule either, as that would ruin it for people who want to roleplay a character that way.

-I've NO IDEA what game you're playing..

 

Instead, how about we start making clothes a little bit more beautiful? The designs are pretty uh... ugly. I've never felt any motivation to go to the trouble of making any of them for my character due to that.

(-Which is something I mentioned)

Maybe wearing clothes would give a bonus of feeling lighter, being able to walk faster and without draining stamina so badly. 

-Huh? Do you even Wurm at all?

 

Well your response to this is overflowing with sarcasm and is merely a tool for you to prove your argument about how lacking the game is in your opinion.

 

I'm sorry you're feeling so disheartened with the game. But regardless of how you feel, (-me and several HUNDREDS of players who have quit... or still playing, romantically hoping the promised changes will come one day) I and many others love Wurm with a passion. And while the game is certainly lacking in some areas and is rough on the edges, to me it is still absolutely mind boggling to see what such a small team has been able to accomplish. I want the very best for this game and for us to move forward with positivity, accepting each contribution the team make as yet another bonus to add to the game we're all enjoying (or else we wouldn't be here, right?).

-Yes. What server you play on again? Who's your character?

"...playing around with Wurm Unlimited has really changed that for me. I would recommend..."

-Ah, nevermind

 

On 2/20/2018 at 9:54 PM, KalinMenajin said:

 

Well if I thought I'd have to go paragraph by paragraph defending my opinion, I would have thought twice before posting.

-I guess I have to, in risk of being called "toxic".. 

 

Now, what I did in my response wasn't to counter a good idea. It would be great if we could have the NPCs you speak of. I don't even agree with those saying "don't ask for stupid things when devs could be working on important stuff". No... Every good idea is worth its own spotlight.

I just want to say "Yes, this is a great idea, but we won't be content just to play in our own little dollhouses, we still want content. We still think the Valrei should be reworked, the missions suck, the mob spawns are flawed, the animal crates are important, Rifts could have a backstory and some impact if left open. We want priests worked, sorcery possible for everyone, and a reason to PvP."

-I established that, I thought. I guess I was wrong. It's a special kind of snowflake that doesn't get it even when things are spelled out. "Self absorbed" comes to mind.

Why do I mention these in your post? Exactly because I find it such a good idea that it may steer interest (of players) into other things and ultimately change the future of Wurm. Once we have NPCs, the next step will be to code them to do our chores. To "hire" them for bonuses -as you also mentioned.

I disagree on that.

 

-Let's move on to more toxic things I mentioned...

I know how it feels to be alone on your deed not seeing a soul in local for months. I still live on such a deed -in Xanadu.

The population has dropped and keeps dropping. I don't want new incentives for people to stay in their bed. I want them to have reasons to visit a capital, a neighbor's deed, another server. I want the King's coffers constantly EMPTY for them until they realize -they never actually helped their king with anything.

I want spells failing until they realize they didn't do enough missions for their deity to be asking for this power.

-Involvement? That's my toxicity?

 

Well, I guess the voices on the matter are a bit one-sided.

On 2/21/2018 at 2:44 PM, Ayes said:

 

The thing is we all play the game for our own reasons and satisfaction. Mine is for building my "ghost towns", as you call them.

-Mine isn't. I AM building currently my 14th deed since I started Wurming, but I still want what the game promised to offer me. Read https://www.wurmonline.com/features/  if you are confused. And I'm not the only one! Then again I'm not the one wondering "where did all the players go?"

 

The game has this concept as a major part of the game design and yeah, I am content with the direction in which this is (and has been) proceeding. This means in contrast to yourself I am not dissatisfied with the game in the areas which you mention in your post, which the Developers are not focusing upon. The problem as I see it is that some players such as yourself want the game to be shaped into something that it is not. Wurm in not another game, nor does it need to offer their style of play.

-Good for you man, I'm so glad you're content. But -please- read again the features and don't try tell us what the game is or what isn't.

 

 I am a bit disturbed to see that she has taken this to heart in some personal way. Yet, I am sure she will soon set this aside and continue on with her positive ideas for her WU project and in turn improvement suggestions for Wurm Online.

-Nope. She won't set it aside. She'll fuel from your support and return with a vengeance. Watch:

On 2/21/2018 at 8:59 PM, Malena said:

 

You know, I could swear that I used around 45 minutes of my precious free time last night to read carefully (-as I did on yours) through your post,  ponder what you'd said and respond with thoughtful answers to the various points. (even though, you had clearly not come here to actually discuss the actual topic but to use this thread as a vehicle for your mission and to rant about the things you believe in, which you've undoubtedly done many many many times before in these forums).

-Can you please point us to some? You clearly want to paint me in a certain manner, how about some proof? If I'm a toxic poster, you would have no difficulty linking one of my rants, right?

 

 The only part I reacted negatively to was the second last paragraph. (-No, you didn't. You reacted with a negative form on all my paragraphs. If you don't go back and change them, people can read it) Was it too much to handle? As you said to me yourself, "sometimes it's nice to let other people state their opinions too". This goes both ways my friend. Listen, if you write something on the Internet, be prepared to receive criticism as well. 

-Do you mean this? https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yp7qaj/an-ubisoft-artist-is-rebuilding-ultima-online-in-3d

You clearly have an agenda to gather up old UO fans into a new 3D UO -Private- server, and you want to have Wurm devs work for you bringing you NPCs to play with.

Or here: https://i.reddit.com/r/ultimaonline/comments/7uwcfl/the_recreation_of_ultima_online_as_a_3d/

Or here: https://stratics.com/threads/the-recreation-of-ultima-online-as-a-3d-experience-continues.396260/

Yep, " if you write something on the Internet, be prepared to receive criticism as well". So how is any of your projects gonna affect Wurm Online, or the community at all? This just seems self-serving...

 

Let me break down why I reacted to your second last paragraph that way, as it clearly was not obvious to you:

-Please do, I'm not as smart as you

"Would I like human NPCs to pretend my village isn't a barren waste of time?"

This implies that anyone willing to build a village and fill it with NPCs is delusional, as if they're purposely ignoring what is actually wrong with the game and happy just pretending that everything is fine and dandy in their own little playground. 

-Bullseye! See how smart you are?

"Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######?"

This goes even further in painting players like myself in a delusional light. As if we will create NPCs and pretend they are our friends. The disdain you feel towards someone who would want to do that is literally oozing through. 

-Not pointing any fingers but you are doing it in your video

 

"Meh  sure, why not."

With this phrase you make sure to indicate that you are of a higher caliber than us "delusional ghost town builders". "Sure, let the simpletons have their NPCs if they want to"

-Again, 

 

"Since there's never a reason in game to become a villager myself and live with others, I might as well be a mayor of my own ghost town and live with my dolls..."

Again more of the same. As if NPCs are dolls to us and we want to pretend that they're real people. 

-Dolls are anthropomorphic decor that animates. Reading on all your comments, your reactions to bdew, your own words in your video.  So.. -yah?

 

And you're surprised by the backlash? 

-Nah, I can see now your "quality" in full spectrum.

 

Besides, you're completely missing the point. Let's stop to think of all of the things in Wurm which "give it life". (excluding visitations from real players)

• The way the grass moves in the wind
• The waves on the sea
• The sound of the wind and water
• The sound of ducks or a wolf howling
• The way animals are animated
• The fact that the time of day and weather changes
• How the clouds move over the sky
• The tower guards walking about. 

-No no I see them. Wurm world is beautiful! What you're missing is- for US it's a game, not an empty world engine on which to build a new game on.

So I also see

• Kingdoms gone
• A Valrei system that makes no sense
• Non-existent PvP
• Sorcery tomes just for "few"
• Broken animal spawns & location patterns
• Deities, missions, HOTA, & priests messed up
• Game commerce and taxation system not working for the game's benefit
• etc

 

 

Imagine if all of the above was not in the game: (-I do )The grass would stay motionless; (hey would it blow your mind if I told you grass moves according to the wind's direction? You can even navigate from that) there would be no movement of the water or clouds (there isn't) or animals; There would be no sounds; Guards would stand rigidly in place without flinching (they don't flinch). Would the game not feel "lifeless"? And yet I don't see you saying: "Sure, have your little "pets" and name them fluffy, if it floats your boat". "Sure, listen to the wind and try and feel free to imagine you're living in a real world". -You just accused me a few lines up of doing exactly that!

"Do I want to pretend these villagers are my friends and name them Bart -the InnKeeper or Molly -the ######?"

"Meh  sure, why not."

With this phrase you make sure to indicate that you are of a higher caliber than us "delusional ghost town builders". "Sure, let the simpletons have their NPCs if they want to"

 

The contempt you feel for players that would want NPCs is a bit silly really, since you willingly enjoy all of these other elements that "give life" to the game - do you not? NPCs really are no different. 

-I said so myself. It's no different.

 

They should also be presented in a helpful and positive manner. I can understand that if you've played the game for a long time and love it "more than I do", that your passion to make the game great is strong, but the way you go about it has us only focus on how bad the game is instead of getting excited about it's potential.

-No I don't. we all know how great and how bad the game is. Just your "potential of it" is to make it UO2.  Mine is to make it a better WURM.

 

You also talk like the dev team would be much larger than it is. If there were 100 developers working on Wurm instead of... what is it... around 10? I'm sure many amazing things could be done along the lines of the dreams you have. 

-So 10 devs are ok to make you NPCs to populate your dollhouse world with, but to make Wurm functional as intended we need 100. We're a lost cause -right?

 

Let's see what never ceases to amaze other people...

On 2/22/2018 at 10:30 AM, bdew said:

It never ceases to amaze me how the quick are the toxic PVP people in trying to turn any positive thread into a dumpster... That's why you can't have nice things.

-A dumpster? Things that hundreds of players asked for and discussed over and over for years, are trash then? That's why "we" can't have nice things? Who are "we" exactly?

 

I've been thinking about this for a while now, i've made the existing NPC mod but i'm not happy with with what i made...

-Oh never-mind, you're one of "those"...

 

I think we can do better. What if instead of an emulation there could be a simulation?

What if those NPCs actually had needs that need to be filled, and the ability to produce something in return? 

A farmer is assigned to some fields, he wakes up in the morning and goes to tend to them, maybe harvests some crops which he then brings  to the cook and the brewer to make food/booze.

In the evening they all gather up in the tavern to eat, drink and have some fun (each of those is a "need" that needs to be filled). They also have houses that they go to for the night and get some rest (also a "need").

There could be a miner, that mines metal and brings it to a blacksmith that uses it to repair/improve the tools of the other townsfolk.

They could have a "security" need, so that you need to hire guards for them to feel safe (and those guards would also need food, drinks, etc.)

And then you get a tax collector, that goes through the other town folk and collects something that could be of value to the player.

There are dozens of other jobs that could be thought off and become part of that system... blah blah

-Yep. You're making a new game based on Wurm's 3D world. Not even sure what the WU rules and agreement are on this, but It's not my problem. My problem is this whole thread should be in  "WU mods" board.

 

On 2/22/2018 at 0:50 PM, Malena said:

Obviously the dream scenario would be that all of those roles were filled by actual players, but it's just never going to happen in this game due to it's small player base and the nature of human beings wanting to move on to bigger and better things. So that reality accepted, your proposition would certainly be the next best thing!

-Hmmm..

Recently Massively OP did an article on whether bots / AI / NPCs could save "dying mmorpgs". Not that Wurm is dying or anything...

 

 

-So do tell us KatsPurr, what else you want customly made for you?

16 hours ago, Malena said:

 

That would be really fun! In UO the NPCs periodically utter a phrase, either from just talking to themselves or if a player speaks a certain keyword in their vicinity. It would be cool if you could set the personality type from a drop down and the collection of predefined phrases would come out based on that. 

 

Argh! So true. And just imagining how immersive it would be if they did the things you described... aaahhh that would be sooo nice!

 

I love it! It would simulate giving them a will of their own and give incentive to take good care of them! Imagine logging onto the game, only to find that two new farmer NPCs strolling around your village, waiting for stuff to do, perhaps uttering phrases like "This place looks like it would have some work for me" or "This village seems like a place I'd like to live". Then of course you should have the option to drive them away perhaps right clicking and dismissing them and then they'd walk off into the yonder and then dissipate into thin air, but then also the option to have them properly join the village by right clicking and choosing "Hire".

Oh my gosh, that would be so fun. 

-The "dolls" we mentioned..  ^.-

Very interesting! I certainly enjoyed "training up" my pets in Ultima Online, and if I remember correctly, the companions of SWTOR also level up and improve over time, or was it directly linked to your own character's level, I can't remember. But in any case, if the NPCs could progress over time, that would be amazing. 

Oh and by the way, here is how players can control their NPCs in Ultima Online: 

 

https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/npc-commercial-transactions/npcs-player-owned/

 

So.. more UO eh?

 

 

Note to Forum mods: I will gladly take a troll-post warning for this. But this whole situation was a personal insult to me and to others like me who are not vocal or enthusiastic enough to post on forums. I believe I have made my point, so I'll be leaving now this thread for good and not return.

 

*drops mic*

[Malena 2,854]

2 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

But calling me toxic?

 

I never called you toxic... but now that you mention it... ;-)

[Reylaark 1,100]

2 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

So.. more UO eh?

 

I'll get back to that.

 

Toxic is kind of a big word with many connotations, and I can understand not appreciating it being directed at you.  I feel the same way when kids nowadays call something cancer as I think it's far too serious a reality to be thrown around so lightly. 

Language matters.  No Doubt.

 

Your intention is not at all to be "toxic," whatever the connotation anyone may be aiming at.  That's great.  So, let's not be.

 

More UO... I never played it myself.  Was busy with other things back then.  Talk to me about Jumpgate, though, and I can wax on nostalgic for days, weeks, there may be no end to it. (so don't get me staahted! )

Ultima Online seems to have been HUGELY, or if you lean to the right, YUGELY, popular game.  In the modern day, it still triggers an emotional response from people the same way Jumpgate does for me.  No negative connotation to "trigger" here, in this context it's a really good thing.

 

Malena's UO project draws attention to WU, and perhaps in turn WO.  It's not just a vessel for her own talent and passion, but a wonderful showcase for Code Club itself.  Undoubtedly a hook to entice gamers to look at WU when they otherwise may not have.  More specifically, gamers that like UO, and hence are a particularly salient demographic for Wurm.

 

So yes, more UO.  There's literally nothing wrong with that.  It's a very large, ambitious project steadfastly coming to successful fruition.  We should all be that tenacious in our endeavors.  I sure am not, and find myself a bit jealous of the implicit discipline.

 

Speaking of jealousy, wouldn't it be wonderful if we all had projects so worthy of attention?  Attention is something many seek, and in this thread, Malena, a girl in gaming no less, is recognized by an outside entity for her work.  Boy, that's something ain't it?  It's ok though.  Just because there's a girl in the cafeteria who is actually having fun while succeeding at something, it doesn't mean the average boys in the cafeteria need to act out for a piece of the attention pie.

 

I'm sure you won't be offended as this doesn't apply to you directly, but in trying to discern why anyone would approach this thread negatively, not to mention picking a fight with Malena who has been nothing but positive... it's the most sensible scenario that came to mind in this specific case.

 

Have a great week-end.  Hope you do find a good venue for the type of PvP you enjoy.  Planetside 2 fits that bill for me these days.

 

**We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.  How 'bout them npc's.. eh?  What will we think of next!**

[bdew 2,462]

On 2/22/2018 at 8:23 PM, Reylaark said:

It did get me thinking though, would npc's have personalities?  Would my farmer be a sarcastic woman?  My bartender a pessimistic old mumbler?  That newest guard a young, excited and ambitious lad?

 

Funny i was just thinking about this. I recently played Rimworld with a mod called Psychology that (among many other things) gives your colonist a set of personality stats that affect how they interact with other colonists and react to different game events.

 

I think it could be an interesting addition to explore to the system i mentioned earlier (if it ever happens in some form)

 

 

11 hours ago, KalinMenajin said:

But this whole situation was a personal insult to me

 

Oh dear... what's a personal insult? The fact that someone asked for something that doesn't exactly match your perceived problems with the game? Or that they dared argue with you when you came and started derailing the thread. If that's not toxic behaviour i don't know what is... Are you even listening to yourself? There is plenty of forum out there to post your offtopic grievances with the game, why did you choose this thread in particular is beyond me.

 

[Alvin 4]

Now that the aggressiveness on this thread seems to have stalled, I add my vision of WU.
There is so much PvP game and so little game of creation!
WU allows all players to find their pleasure by offering several ways to play.
* Install a private server without modification and play, which I did for several months after the purchase of the WU license.
* Create a complete world (map, housing, NPC ...) and take advantage of some MOD developed by programmers who had the courage and the patience to peel the source of the program of origin to know the existing functions.
In this category, I find Malena's work remarkable, and I'm sure she's enjoying herself as much, if not more, than a player who spends her time killing critters or doing PvP.
* And there is what I would like to do, recreate an RP server like the one we had with NeverWinter Night 1st of the name and its editor coupled to a home programming language (genre C ++) that allowed all the changes imaginable. Since I do not have the ambition and the energy to tackle a huge task like completely recreating a world like Malena does, I just created the departure city of our old server and two other cities located in strategic locations. I of course modeled the landscape a little, added the necessary resources (mine, necropolis ...) and thanks to the MOD of bdew added some NPCs. And then I had to stop there! Impossible with the available tools to do proper quests. The "Mission Ruler" is a logic that does not apply at all to the quests I want to implement. Modeling a dungeon is easy, but properly populating it with monsters, traps, and NPCs is impossible. Even for small FEDEX quests this tool is unsuitable. It is sorely lacking a "MOD trigger" that would easily make it possible to initiate quests when a player does an action such as opening a door, walking on a tile, talking to an NPC, etc ... And also dialogs for NPCs . I started trying to make a "MOD trigger", creating a table for storing triggers, loading these triggers when starting the server, entering these triggers in DM, but I stumble on my ignorance of functions and calls from the original program. I could not find which hook to divert to intercept the actions of the players. And waiting for the promised update, I hope that modelers (ago, bdew, Governor ...) will continue their contributions that enrich this game enormously and allow designers like Malena to express their talent.
In conclusion, bdew if you could add some animation: Blacksmith who stamps on the anvil, farmer who rakes etc ... all that is possible without too much work, it would allow to add more life in the cities built in DM and waiting for players. Me, I will continue to peel the original source to find the functions that interest me and have fun with this game without killing a bug or a player.

 

[Malena 2,854]

3 hours ago, Alvin said:

Now that the aggressiveness on this thread seems to have stalled, I add my vision of WU.
There is so much PvP game and so little game of creation!
WU allows all players to find their pleasure by offering several ways to play.
* Install a private server without modification and play, which I did for several months after the purchase of the WU license.
* Create a complete world (map, housing, NPC ...) and take advantage of some MOD developed by programmers who had the courage and the patience to peel the source of the program of origin to know the existing functions.
In this category, I find Malena's work remarkable, and I'm sure she's enjoying herself as much, if not more, than a player who spends her time killing critters or doing PvP.
* And there is what I would like to do, recreate an RP server like the one we had with NeverWinter Night 1st of the name and its editor coupled to a home programming language (genre C ++) that allowed all the changes imaginable. Since I do not have the ambition and the energy to tackle a huge task like completely recreating a world like Malena does, I just created the departure city of our old server and two other cities located in strategic locations. I of course modeled the landscape a little, added the necessary resources (mine, necropolis ...) and thanks to the MOD of bdew added some NPCs. And then I had to stop there! Impossible with the available tools to do proper quests. The "Mission Ruler" is a logic that does not apply at all to the quests I want to implement. Modeling a dungeon is easy, but properly populating it with monsters, traps, and NPCs is impossible. Even for small FEDEX quests this tool is unsuitable. It is sorely lacking a "MOD trigger" that would easily make it possible to initiate quests when a player does an action such as opening a door, walking on a tile, talking to an NPC, etc ... And also dialogs for NPCs . I started trying to make a "MOD trigger", creating a table for storing triggers, loading these triggers when starting the server, entering these triggers in DM, but I stumble on my ignorance of functions and calls from the original program. I could not find which hook to divert to intercept the actions of the players. And waiting for the promised update, I hope that modelers (ago, bdew, Governor ...) will continue their contributions that enrich this game enormously and allow designers like Malena to express their talent.
In conclusion, bdew if you could add some animation: Blacksmith who stamps on the anvil, farmer who rakes etc ... all that is possible without too much work, it would allow to add more life in the cities built in DM and waiting for players. Me, I will continue to peel the original source to find the functions that interest me and have fun with this game without killing a bug or a player.

 

 

What a lovely post Alvin! I have so much respect, love and gratitude for the Wurm modders of this game. I am also very envious of their programming skills and will hopefully some day get into that as well. 

We all understand of course that in the perfect world, the dev team would be magically blessed with endless time and resources to create all of the same cool things that the modders are doing. But considering the small size of the team we can understand that they have to be very strict with their priorities. How wonderful it is then, that Wurm Unlimited was created, opening up all of these possibilities for the rest of us who do have that time, to dig in and experiment. In the very least, the stuff modders do, serve as a great prototype for what could actually be implemented into the actual game. I truly hope they've been inspired by the things bdew and other modders have created!

 

*waits patiently for things on tables* 

[bdew 2,462]

6 hours ago, Alvin said:

The "Mission Ruler" is a logic that does not apply at all to the quests I want to implement. Modeling a dungeon is easy, but properly populating it with monsters, traps, and NPCs is impossible. Even for small FEDEX quests this tool is unsuitable. It is sorely lacking a "MOD trigger" that would easily make it possible to initiate quests when a player does an action such as opening a door, walking on a tile, talking to an NPC, etc

 

Some of that is doable with the ruler, like walking on a tile works, opening a door kinda works, and talking to npcs is doable (well as long as the talking is a single screen of text that will pop up when you use the talk action). But yeah it's pretty limited.

 

I am planning to implement proper dialog trees and the ability to trigger mission stuff from them  in the current npc mod, just need to find time for this.

 

6 hours ago, Alvin said:

In conclusion, bdew if you could add some animation: Blacksmith who stamps on the anvil, farmer who rakes etc ... all that is possible without too much work, it would allow to add more life in the cities built in DM and waiting for players. Me, I will continue to peel the original source to find the functions that interest me and have fun with this game without killing a bug or a player.

 

 

Also will be coming... at some point, i hope

[Corsan 199]

I personally agree with KalinMenajin on a lot of this. It sounds like a lot of you folks are in the 'mod Wurm Online' crowd, and I was hoping most of those people that wanted to do that had moved on over to WU where they can mod to their heart's content without disrupting/destroying the MMO game we currently have.

Do I think things need to change in the game? Sure. Would AI help it feel less boring? Not to me. I've played games where you have AI characters walking around. It still feels dull/lifeless, like you're surrounded by automatons and you end up feeling like you're alone in a giant world. Even games where you can setup market stalls in towns and all be yelling out trade spam feel boring/dead. It plays like it's a game full of bots anyway...even if some/most are actual players. When people aren't properly interacting and it just turns into a trade engine for people to market goods to you, then it starts feeling like maybe those devs intended you to just waste money on the game and that's a negative/turnoff and makes you want to leave and quit the game.

I never played UO to know what you're pining after...but I've read enough articles about it to know that there was plenty of things that got abused over there also. It had a more active GM base than even Wurm does (And Wurm is pretty heavyhanded on that front already.) who managed to keep it 'on the right track' for longer, but even still things went badly here or there.

So no, I really don't think adding AI, bots or otherwise, NPC's that'll do your work for you (Ugh, I hate that games have turned crafting into that on many games...'send out minions for crafted goods...wait 18 hours and then you can play again' BS annoys the crud out of me...I want to actively play...not ship workers off...logoff and come back to play.)...or anything of that nature is a 'good idea'.

[Mordraug 2,542]

1 hour ago, Corsan said:

I personally agree with KalinMenajin on a lot of this. It sounds like a lot of you folks are in the 'mod Wurm Online' crowd, and I was hoping most of those people that wanted to do that had moved on over to WU where they can mod to their heart's content without disrupting/destroying the MMO game we currently have.

 

You DO know that several of the more recent QoL improvements on WO are a result of stuff that was implemented and tested by WU modders, right?

 

Don't knock it, if WU modders come up with NPCtopia, odds are WO will wind up grabbing a thing or two from it, like the much requested bartender merchant.

[NeeNee 855]

On 2/22/2018 at 1:23 PM, Malena said:

 

Haha! Now that you mention it, Wurm characters (not just NPCs) -ARE- creepy! I remember being a newbie with my tiny 1x1 tile house and suddenly seeing some dude staring blatantly (and blankly) at me through my window. Freaked me the hell out! 

Seriously though, why are they so creepy? Is it because the characters are so rigid, which gives them a robotic feel?

I'm not personally in favor of more NPCs, but this, yes, why are we these creepy heavy breathing characters? (And if NPCs would make other people happy, well, that's good!)

[Ulost 144]

No Malena Wurm Online doesn't need more NPC's. I dont even understand why most of your posts is about Ultima or what you have done. Are you advertising yourself or what? Keep in mind Wurm has own dev's and this game aint Ultima re-make. This forum has sections for Wurm Unlimited and you should speak there about your mods and so on. I really hate to say this but im a Wurm veteran and i like what devs do, but in my eyes you are Wurm noob with too much spare time. You can send your angry PM's to me written in finnish because im from Finland like you.

[Mordraug 2,542]

2 hours ago, Ulost said:

 I really hate to say this but im a Wurm veteran and i like what devs do, but in my eyes you are Wurm noob with too much spare time.

 

Not defending Malena, she's a grown woman, can do that for herself.... 

 

.... but that attitude from the "veterans".... such pro-stagnation stances.... if you want an unchanging unevolving Wurm..... ..... ..... ..... 

 

START YOUR OWN VANILLA WU SERVER

 

..yarr! 

[Malena 2,854]

There's lots of talk about "this crowd" or "that crowd". I would hope that most of us Wurm players think of ourselves as "Wurmians", not Wurm Online players or Wurm Unlimited players or Wurm Modders. We're all Wurmians and love the SAME CORE game with the same passion.

 

Yes, let me use the word "love ". I love Wurm. It is how I choose to spend my time. I don't spend it in WoW, nor in GW2 and certainly not in UO (which is still up and running btw). I spend my time in Wurm and this is the game I am currently devoted to and have been devoted to for the past 4½ years. Ever since I started playing, I've worked hard to promote and advertise this game and to spread the word. I've also tried to contribute to the community through various means, whether it was through the item list I made to help us decorate, or through helping Warlander with his work on DeedPlanner, or whether it was through the work for rare horses and missing items icons. My YouTube channel is full of Wurm videos that promote the game as it is and help new players get started.

 

What I don't understand is how anyone thinks I'm trying to turn Wurm into UO. Huh what? Just because I currently happen to have a UO project going on in Wurm Unlimited? People do all sorts of projects in WU! If someone decided to make a server in the shape of PacMan, would you all be shaking your fists and declaring that they're trying to turn Wurm into PacMan? Get a grip.

When I first started this project, I was toying around with the idea of recreating a WoW or Elder Scrolls map also, but UO seemed to be the best fit. I talk about this in the first video of the series.  

 

 

Sure, UO is a constant topic for me right now since the project is still ongoing. Kinda natural, dontcha think? 

 

But never once have I said "Yo devs: Make me something UO specific so I can turn Wurm into UO". I cannot think of a single suggestion I've made that is directly related to something specific only to UO.

Whenever I've made suggestions in the suggestions forum, I've always had Wurm's best interest at heart. If there has ever been any source of inspiration behind it, it's been from any of a multitude of MMOs. 

 

Oh and... How people are wrapping together NPCs and UO into one is beyond me. Does not literally every other RPG game out there have NPCs? Surely folks understand that NPCs are not a "UO thing"?

 

And just as a reminder: When I first suggested NPCs, it was years ago. Way before we had any inkling of Wurm Unlimited or of modding. 

 

Now, back to the topic at hand:

 

At the core root of the NPC discussion is giving life to the Wurmian world. What I would be interested in hearing from the NPC opposers is how they suggest then, that we'd get more life into the game. I think we can all agree that walking through 99% of the towns and cities feel dead and empty. So how would you fix this?

 

 

 

[Corsan 199]

15 hours ago, Mordraug said:

You DO know that several of the more recent QoL improvements on WO are a result of stuff that was implemented and tested by WU modders, right?

 

Yes, I know that more hands delving into the code allows for more tweakage of spaghetti soup. Except they've rather clearly stated that WO and WU aren't the same coding. That's why they keep shunting our 'new' WO updates out to WU awhile after/later...(And apparently is why this week's news is late...CM comments per the matter in another thread.) Sometimes the WU people come up with things that WO wants to use, or that enough people agree is a 'good' update. Should every single thing WU modders want instituted be brought over to WO? No.

 

33 minutes ago, Malena said:

Oh and... How people are wrapping together NPCs and UO into one is beyond me. Does not literally every other RPG game out there have NPCs? Surely folks understand that NPCs are not a "UO thing"?

 

You referenced UO 10 times in that section alone. It's like you're pining after UO. Last I heard, Broadsword is still running UO, and it's still active/able to be played. Why aren't you just playing UO? Did you ask them whether you could copy/create something of theirs? That's known as intellectual property theft last I knew...

 

You don't talk like you're a fan of Wurm, you talk like you're a fan of UO and want to turn Wurm into UO.

 

38 minutes ago, Malena said:

At the core root of the NPC discussion is giving life to the Wurmian world. What I would be interested in hearing from the NPC opposers is how they suggest then, that we'd get more life into the game. I think we can all agree that walking through 99% of the towns and cities feel dead and empty. So how would you fix this?

 

Many of us have suggested ways to get more life into the game/adjust the game to bring in more people over our time playing. It's been falling on deaf ears. They claim they are advertising the game...then do stuff that uses social media to barrage people's friends with ads (Who often have ad-blockers anyway..if they are sane and using social media.).

NPC's don't bring life to a game, they bring movement. NPC's are not life. They are about as dead as can be. You can even create AI you could interact with, but eventually you'll notice that it's not a real life person as you interact over time with it.

I'd rather have more real people brought to the game to liven up the servers...but they've spread us out over so many servers (I personally only talk in my server specific chat...luckily I'm on one of the larger servers.) and refuse to abandon some of the former money-maker concepts that are holding back the game from improvement. It took how long for them to even do something about the traders (And all the drama revolving around those....ugh)...and then other issues like the uniques/dragon drama are still going. Now we've got a certain subset of people who are all 'Rah rah rah' about the Rifts and many of us can't even attend those things. Not counting the whole priest thing wrapped around preying upon gamer 'whales' with too much money on their hands.

It's like they are continuously putting in ways to make niche groups that won't deal with each-other/play with each-other. Meanwhile whole skills are broken/things aren't working as intended anymore (I was just commenting on how fat layers don't even function anymore and how I've had a ven croc cared for which I haven't even fed for nearly a RL year and still has it's 'fat' tag in chat the other day..)

The market has even been noticing and we're having threads about how the market sucks now...that's because too much supply, not enough demand, less and less people are starting/sticking around/earning coin. That's part of the problem and why it 'feels so dead and empty'. Would AI help it not feel dead and empty? No. AI would just be waltzing around on their pre-set paths and 'interacting' as coded and eventually the game would just be filled with a bunch of AI and no people left...then you've just essentially got bots playing with bots, and no cash-flow for the game to keep it running and the whole she-bang goes under.

So no, once again, I don't agree with you on this.

Sometimes the modders bring things that help, yes. But dead life-less automatons walking around that could possibly do your work for you (ruining more trade). No, that won't help, and may actually cause more harm than good. At least IMO.

[Roccandil 959]

Immersion is a Wurm core characteristic; it's why we have first-person perspective. Another is that population leaves the world when players log off. These two characteristics are inherently in conflict. Going to a neighbor deed whose population is offline is immersion-dampening.

 

If it were my game, I'd consider adding configurable NPCs into which owners could put something of their personality. Maybe these NPCs could do useful work, gardening, farming, repairing, etc., but more importantly they would be part of the deed scenery designed by the player, there to make each deed look more real, even when the player is offline.

 

I realize that would be a different game.

[Reylaark 1,100]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:30 PM, bdew said:

 

That's an impressive list!  Certainly way more than the handful of attributes I was thinking.  Love it.

Admittedly, first thing I noticed was the kinsey scale.  Totally cracked me up they included that.

Second though, they've separated Empathetic and Compassionate.  Had never thought about it but I suppose someone could be an empath, intuitively understanding how another is feeling, but lack the compassion to give a rat's arse.

 

I love it when a game can make me think or teach me something, which is something I've enjoyed about Wurm over the years.

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

I realize that would be a different game.

 

I'm honestly not sure that it would be, particularly if it is player driven and customizable.  It's just another tool devs can throw into the sandbox for players to use creatively on their deeds, if they would so choose.

 

2 hours ago, Corsan said:

Last I heard, Broadsword is still running UO, and it's still active/able to be played. Why aren't you just playing UO? Did you ask them whether you could copy/create something of theirs? That's known as intellectual property theft last I knew...

Hmm, the source of the content has always been credited and there's no financial gain.  I think it would fall more into a tribute for personal use.  Sort of like if I were to dump a giant bucket of Lego™ on the ground and rebuild the Starship Enterprise in minute detail.

The fact that UO servers are still up and running is great.  That means there are still eyeballs that may notice the project, become interested, and learn about Wurm.  Kind of like targeted advertising in a way.  How did this person do this?  Wurm?  The heck is Wurm?  Whoa... that looks cool, take muh money!

 

Also, literally no one is saying having npc's would be better than having new players.  Everybody agrees with you that new players would always be preferred.

It's just that sometimes an awesome starter town is created.  Intricately decorated, awesome tavern... and nothing... you walk in, and it's dead.  So you leave, and you see the blacksmith shop.  Again, so well put together, totally awesome... and empty, no signs of life.

 

To me, and totally cool if not to you, but to me, hearing the sounds of hammer on anvil when I enter the blacksmith and seeing "someone" working metal would only add to the scene.  An old dude with a long gray beard smoking a wooden pipe by the tavern's fireplace is never, ever, going to replace a new player, but it doesn't make the room feel any emptier than it was before.  It adds to the scene the player created.

 

Just a thought.  There's really no hard and fast rule that npc's have to mean they literally do your work.  When I mentioned npc's "working," I just mean that's the decoration they add.  They wouldn't actually do my farming, I want that xp , I just mean they'd be seen in the fields when I get home or people visit type of thing.  It's just another tool in the sandbox, another decoration.

 

Not married to the idea or anything, it's all good.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Reylaark
Lego, forgot the Lego. Bucket w/o Lego just isn't the same.

[Corsan 199]

21 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

There's really no hard and fast rule that npc's have to mean they literally do your work.  When I mentioned npc's "working," I just mean that's the decoration they add.  They wouldn't actually do my farming, I want that xp , I just mean they'd be seen in the fields when I get home or people visit type of thing.

 

Often it starts out with wanting a visual aid, then it turns into 'I'm at work and I'm getting behind these people who have time to actually play...why can't I just have a AI doing my work while I'm not here?'

 

23 minutes ago, Reylaark said:

The fact that UO servers are still up and running is great.

 

That's just from perusing the same website she said she posted this stuff on. They just celebrated their 19th year running on that game(UO), from what I read. I usually try and keep up with Massively.com's news...and when I see Wurm news in there very spuriously it's almost always something that makes you go 'Um, shouldn't they have already had that by now?'. It's probably why we don't get a lot of new people from their news junkets they do over there lately.

I've heard of a few games that are basically variations on Wurm that are in beta/alpha stages...Wild Terra, Tree of Life, ECO, Life is Feudal...to name a few. We probably have some pretty serious competition starting to steal the playerbase...plus we have WU siphoning a good few off (While also providing a few new players...who tried WU and were like 'Maybe I should try the actual game...').

On topic :

If these AI were to remain purely visual elements that we couldn't interact with/control, that were just part of the game...I'd be more lenient about saying 'OK' (For example, the random NPC's that trudge through towns on FFXIV...that spawn in, walk up to some seller NPC and act like they are bartering, and sometimes use a emote or two and then wander off. That type of thing is usually 'Eh' on my side of things, but I generally still find them lifeless/obnoxious after seeing the same loop about a few hundred times. Usually this is the type of thing you'd do to create a chain QUEST though, and we don't have quests in this sandbox...)

Also, there are some people that don't want to hear all the various sounds from a NPC continuously going...I know I had a neighbor who complained about their neighbor was hammering on a boat at all hours of the day (Yes, he got in trouble for using a program inappropriately.) and how annoying that sound got. That's another side effect of things like this.

[bdew 2,462]

3 hours ago, Reylaark said:

Admittedly, first thing I noticed was the kinsey scale.  Totally cracked me up they included that.

 

Heh. It's been somewhat of a topic in rimworld after someone found some questionable logic in rimworld code that handled sexuality, it made the rounds on various news sites a few years ago. There has been a few mods since that messed with that since, to various degrees of success.

 

On 2/28/2018 at 10:35 AM, Corsan said:

NPC's that'll do your work for you (Ugh, I hate that games have turned crafting into that on many games...'send out minions for crafted goods...wait 18 hours and then you can play again' BS annoys the crud out of me...I want to actively play...not ship workers off...logoff and come back to play.)

 

I think if a system similar to what i described ever happens it shouldn't provide players with resources that they can make themself, that would just saturate the market even more than it already is. It could act as a small coin faucet which would help the economy from spiraling into deflation (or at least slow that process down a bit) while being complicated enough to set up a self-sufficient productive settlement so that it isn't abused too much. It could also provide some new resources or buffs that don't currently exist.

 

6 hours ago, Corsan said:

Except they've rather clearly stated that WO and WU aren't the same coding

 

The codebase is 99% the same, i can say that with a certainty. There have been multiple cases where myself and other modders found bugs and exploits in WU and contacted WO devs to have them fixed in WO code.

 

11 hours ago, Ulost said:

I really hate to say this but im a Wurm veteran and i like what devs do, but in my eyes you are Wurm noob with too much spare time

 

Not only this is rude and offtopic, but you don't even qualify for being a veteran judging by your join date

Edited March 1, 2018 by bdew

[Malena 2,854]

14 hours ago, Roccandil said:

but more importantly they would be part of the deed scenery designed by the player, there to make each deed look more real, even when the player is offline.

 

This phrase sums up exaaaaactly what I'm getting at.

• Our farm animals make our deeds more immersive by wandering around their pens and grazing the grass.
• Our tower guards make our deeds more immersive by patrolling around the city.
• Our merchants make our deeds more immersive by being figures you can do trade with. 
• And as would just a few more NPC types in addition to the already existing tower guards, spirit guards, traders and merchants bring just a little more immersion.

I have to wonder whether the opposers have the above mentioned NPCs on their deeds. 

[Ayes 3,715]

16 hours ago, Roccandil said:

If it were my game, I'd consider adding configurable NPCs into which owners could put something of their personality.

 

The ability to have an NPC like designed like this could be very interesting. Lets say that every deed owner could have an exact copy of their Character created when they *logged off* that would appear on their deed in a place of their choosing. Then the deed owner could program this duplicate Character to tell stories or answer preset questions about themselves, their deed or whatever. Visitors to the deed could then say "Hello Ayes" to this NPC and it would respond with some type of greeting. For further interaction they could click on it and choose topics of information that were available on it. This would then appear in a Village Chat Tab and carry on from there. Way too much time consuming complex coding for WO to implement no doubt but I think a programmable duplicate Character NPC along these lines would be very fun to have available as included with deeds.

 

=Ayes=

[Malena 2,854]

4 minutes ago, Ayes said:

 

The ability to have an NPC like designed like this could be very interesting. Lets say that every deed owner could have an exact copy of their Character created when they *logged off* that would appear on their deed in a place of their choosing. Then the deed owner could program this duplicate Character to tell stories or answer preset questions about themselves, their deed or whatever. Visitors to the deed could then say "Hello Ayes" to this NPC and it would respond with some type of greeting. For further interaction they could click on it and choose topics of information that were available on it. This would then appear in a Village Chat Tab and carry on from there. Way too much time consuming complex coding for WO to implement no doubt but I think a programmable duplicate Character NPC along these lines would be very fun to have available as included with deeds.

 

=Ayes=

 

That's certainly a fascinating idea and one that never came to mind until you mentioned it. I guess the main downside would be the disappointment of going to someone's deed and at first assuming that they are "home", only to discover that it's just a bot and then feeling even more lonely and desolate in the world. 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

2 hours ago, Ayes said:

 

The ability to have an NPC like designed like this could be very interesting. Lets say that every deed owner could have an exact copy of their Character created when they *logged off* that would appear on their deed in a place of their choosing. Then the deed owner could program this duplicate Character to tell stories or answer preset questions about themselves, their deed or whatever. Visitors to the deed could then say "Hello Ayes" to this NPC and it would respond with some type of greeting. For further interaction they could click on it and choose topics of information that were available on it. This would then appear in a Village Chat Tab and carry on from there. Way too much time consuming complex coding for WO to implement no doubt but I think a programmable duplicate Character NPC along these lines would be very fun to have available as included with deeds.

 

=Ayes=

Thats a rather unique concept. This could also be tied to the title system. A Master Platesmith could be designated to show his model imping plate sets on his forge (Just for decorative purposes, not actually imping) or a farmer appear to be tending the crops. It will give players more reason to seek out those titles.

 

Another, more practical idea for an npc would be a bulk seller and a grocer. Similar to the Wagoneer system, a bulk seller would operate in a similar interface. You would go to the bulk seller and add crates or bulk containers. The bulk seller would then pull these bulk items from his shed (like the wagoneer tent) and drop them at a designated location on the deed (in a 1x1 square in front of him with ownership and permissions allowing the buyer to pick it up. Or perhaps automatically have your on deed Wagoneer deliver them.

 

On the other hand, a grocer would be akin to a regular merchant that holds only perishable ingredients such as corn, meat or bladders. Items on the grocer take no damage and would be limited to the same limitations of a merchant (so you cant put more than 100 items), perishable/consumable ingredients, and no containers. This would allow for the sale of seeds, saplings, bloods, or other exotic butchering or harvested items and the ability for inns to offer raw materials for guests to cook with, while preventing the use of these as no decay long term item storage. A price if 15s will ensure they dont replace small chests for similar purposes.