Davih

supreme / fantastic item "crafting"

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I was talking with someone that gave me this idea, we laughed about it, then i tought better about the possible implications, and i tought it might very well be something good for the game and the market.

It's not a secret that the current market is overrun by rares of all kinds, and since some rares are "simply too many" , their market price and desirability is sinking.

I'm not sure if that's ever been proposed, but i want to ask you what you think both of the general idea and of my specific proposal.


What if we could add a craftable kind-of-workbench that allows to:

- craft a supreme version of an item with 5 rare ones of it
- craft a fantastic version of an item with 10 supreme ones of it

This would only work with items that can be in the inventory, and it would obiously be good for some things and terrible for other ones.

example: You place an item in one section of the workbench. (like a rare mallet with 95ql and 100coc, then you place 4 other "random rare mallets" in another section of the workbench of irrelevant ql/materials and casts, and you obtain a supreme 95ql mallet with 100coc.
 Would also be nice if using this same thing, you could add 2 "rare items" to turn a normal non-rare item of the same kind to rare.

Why all this?

Because the rare market is obviously saturated, not only that affects every existing player, but even if a new player lucks out and makes a rare pickaxe, it's not going to be a very rare and desiderable item for other players and will be hard to sell.

This would give new life to the market. add "feeling of longevity" to the game for endgame-pvers, people might want to decide to "slowly build" their fantastic or even just supreme toolset a piece at the time and therefore all the rare items on the market will probably be made desirable again, at least for a very,very long time.

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Im open to (almost) everything new and your proposal is already found in many games, so there should be plenty of inspiration to get out there for such a system to work properly.

 

I dont see why the enchants would transfer though, that doesnt makes sense when youre making a new item.

Edited by Nordlys

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3 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

Im open to (almost) everything new, and your proposal is already found in many games. I dont see why the enchants would transfer though, that doesnt makes sense when youre making a new item.

You're "upgrading" more than creating
Because that's a simpler way to handle the "materials" matter, you choose one and add 4 (or 9) and that item gets "upgraded" by 1 rarity tier. 
Wouldn't be bad to be able to at least "save" the statistics of one of the 5 rare items you're sacrificing.
Also the "make one normal item rare by sacrificing 2 of them rare" would use that mechanic.

Edited by Davih

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I'm with Nordlys here, especially regarding enchantments.

Additionally, the numbers of items to be combined ought to reflect how much more improbable getting the next tier is compared to the first. If Nadroj's numbers about that are correct...

then using 5 items for rare -> supreme would be fitting. But supreme -> fantastic would require many, many more items otherwise it's just an easy gateway to fantastics. I'd probably double the amount of items for good measure on top of that, at least for rare -> supreme.

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I know, i'm aware of that, numbers can be adjusted of course, even if imho, gathering more than 10 supreme items of the same kind doesn't sound very realistic.
Opening the gateway to fantastic might not be a terrible idea, this also might be better than just increasing chances(that would end up in people trying more and creating even more rares), and i'm saying that just after buying a fantastic, which is also why i ended up thinking about this in general

Edited by Davih

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+1 Might be plausable idea that will even restore back value of rares. And because i have personal personal (something i decided i wanna pursue in wurm) goal in game to slowly build set of rare/supreme tools with my signature instead of just buying them it certanly works in my favour lol :D 

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Add in the need of 10/50 source crystals for rare->sumpreme/supreme->fantastic and I think you'll be on to a winner (especially if there are more ways to gain source crystals than just mining...)

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Forgot that, it would also be a viable and less random way to reach the personal goal, for those who care : D

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On a serious note, for personal goals, it does make a lot of sense. As outlandish as some goals are (Become a champion or whatever), those can at least be achieved if you put your mind to it. The goal of creating a fantastic item, however..."meh, I'll give it to you when I feel like it, maybe never. xoxo" - Wurm RNG

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12 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

As long as non-prem can make rare tools it'll just lower the value of higher tiers. 

I think it will take a good while until the value of fantastics goes down with this process, i mean, the "market" for fantastic items is almost unexistent considering how rare they are, there are not even real price references.

Still, i think that it would be a needed change to remove rare rolls from non premium, or at least limit the rare rolls on multi non-premium accounts logged from the same IP (it works for chaos cross-kingdom protection, so the base-code is already here)

And if that doesn't get changed, rare prices will sink anyway, and supremes will start to, as they already doing anyway

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I +1 the idea because i already have something similar on my WU server.  Players can turn in multiple rare components (weighted based on rare, supreme or fantastic) to have one of their crafted items turned rare, supreme or fantastic.  Save up 100+ rare components and get an inventory crafted item turned fantastic.  Double that and a non-inventory item (boat, cart, guard tower, etc) can be turned.  I also allow trading in of completed crafts, which carry a lot more weight than the components.

 

It is my way of keeping down the proliferation of all those rares.  I'd love WO to have a native system for doing the same.

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+1, too bad we couldn't have this in a million years - it's a good idea that would be fun!

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Edited by Rocklobstar

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9 hours ago, Davih said:

or at least limit the rare rolls on multi non-premium accounts logged from the same IP (it works for chaos cross-kingdom protection, so the base-code is already here)

like 4/5 of the times i've gone to chaos it never worked, i'd usually get to the border before it tells me there's enemies in local and i can't focus/plot course. IP checks are useless anyway.

9 hours ago, Davih said:

And if that doesn't get changed, rare prices will sink anyway, and supremes will start to, as they already doing anyway

How will adding more supremes make their price go up? It's just everyone that was going to buy rares already has, and people are undercutting each other trying to find the 1 person buying, no way to fix that unless they start getting newer players in.

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24 minutes ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

like 4/5 of the times i've gone to chaos it never worked, i'd usually get to the border before it tells me there's enemies in local and i can't focus/plot course. IP checks are useless anyway.

How will adding more supremes make their price go up? It's just everyone that was going to buy rares already has, and people are undercutting each other trying to find the 1 person buying, no way to fix that unless they start getting newer players in.

I'm not sure we are talking of the same thing, i mean the protection that denies you to connect to chaos with 2 characters from different kingdoms based on IP check. That does work pretty well iirc. Unless someone goes out of his way to try and cheat the thing.
I meant a system that denies you rare rolls on non-premium accounts if you are already logged from the same IP with another account. But again, even if they were to remove rare rolls completely from non premium, i won't complain.
To be honest though, with the current system that might not be very effective anyway, if you plan on grinding rares nonstop for 2 weeks, premming up 3-4 extra accounts for 15 days wouldn't be the end of the world investment-wise.
I think i would also suggest a system that bring the creation chance of a rare to a maximum of 33% for everything instead of the current 100% on 2-component items. To bring it in line with the "improving to rare chance"
Adding more supreme won't make the price go up, ofc, but adding the possibility to create fantastics with a reasonable amount of supremes (10?) might have that effect
 

Edited by Davih

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You mean the idea I posted a few days ago Davih? It is a good idea.

 

Nice original idea/plagiarism.

 

 

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I never happened to read that reply, to be honest.

It's probably not a very original idea in the first place, it's a common mechanic seen in a lot of games.

And i didn't personally have it, as i said in the OP, someone told me this thing yesterday, i tought about it a bit, and posted it here because i tought it would have been nice to see it implemented and i wanted to check how people felt about it.

You had this idea too? great!
It's not like whoever post it in suggestions gets an achievement.
I don't really bother myself with things like "plagiarism", and i think you really shouldn't too, lol.

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12 minutes ago, Davih said:

I never happened to read that reply, to be honest.

It's probably not a very original idea in the first place, it's a common mechanic seen in a lot of games.

And i didn't personally have it, as i said in the OP, someone told me this thing yesterday, i tought about it a bit, and posted it here because i tought it would have been nice to see it implemented and i wanted to check how people felt about it.

You had this idea too? great!
It's not like whoever post it in suggestions gets an achievement.
I don't really bother myself with things like "plagiarism", and i think you really shouldn't too, lol.

Not angry but just curious why your friend doesn't source people correctly.

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He doesn't even know i posted this, we were just randomly talking about rares, supremes and fantastic items : D

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-1, I have a feeling making 50 rares or 10 supremes (or other combinations) would be way more difficult than making a fantastic. Even if probability says otherwise, I think there are already more than 200 rare horseshoes out there and I doubt there are even 4 fantastic ones. That is a complete guess though, I have just never seen a fantastic horseshoe. Only horses decked out with rares and supremes, and i get really snoopy lol.

23 hours ago, Davih said:

Because the rare market is obviously saturated, not only that affects every existing player, but even if a new player lucks out and makes a rare pickaxe, it's not going to be a very rare and desiderable item for other players and will be hard to sell.

I don't believe the market is that saturated, People haven't started just giving away rares have they? Until rares are treated like 4sp horses, I wouldnt say so. If the rare market is saturated, just add a new thing above the rares. Rather than rare iron stuff, make more stuff steel and have that be the next best rare. Add even more metals from metallurgy (or use the existing ones) and make it so those are the next interesting rares. The addition of combining tools wouldn't offer much more to do. People with 20 rare carving knives from grinding WS will just combine them all and then continue what they are doing... boring suggestion :/.

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o.O
I'm sorry, but the first part on your answer doesn't really make any sense.

you have "a feeling" that they will be easier to make, even if you know that they aren't , and in fact you never seen a fantastic horseshoe despite being sure there are more than 200 rares? 
So, if you are even proving yourself to be wrong on your own, why would a "wrong feeling" be of any importance?

About the second part, just trust me, any experienced merchant playing this game in the last 2 years could confirm the fact that the rare market is in fact, mostly saturated, horses aren't really a viable comparison, and they are kinda designed in a way that makes avoiding saturation of the market  completely impossible, at this point they are just more like "a service" some neighbour could sell you right now.

About rare steel tools, they aren't really more desirable than rare iron ones, because metallurgy+coalmaking is not a very common skillset, and most people just want to be able to easily imp back their toolset easily, which steel tools doesn't allow, so it's kind of a niche market, and even if someone would start to grind rare steel tools, that market would be saturated extremely fast aswell.

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I like this idea but it would simply allow the people spamming rares an easy way to create supreme and fantastic items on an industrial scale. This would end up saturating the market even more, defeating the purpose really. 

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7 hours ago, Davih said:

o.O
I'm sorry, but the first part on your answer doesn't really make any sense.

Sorry, was in a rush to go to class.

 

7 hours ago, Davih said:

you have "a feeling" that they will be easier to make, even if you know that they aren't , and in fact you never seen a fantastic horseshoe despite being sure there are more than 200 rares? 
So, if you are even proving yourself to be wrong on your own, why would a "wrong feeling" be of any importance?

I meant to say that making 50 rares or 10 supremes is way easier than making 1 fantastic. I then stated that I have never seen a fantastic horseshoe and i know rares are not hard to come by and plenty will be made when grinding.

 

7 hours ago, Davih said:

About the second part, just trust me, any experienced merchant playing this game in the last 2 years could confirm the fact that the rare market is in fact, mostly saturated, horses aren't really a viable comparison, and they are kinda designed in a way that makes avoiding saturation of the market  completely impossible, at this point they are just more like "a service" some neighbour could sell you right now.

I don't trust you at all... the values of rares are still quite beyond a player who plays casually (not for the economy). I play casually and I managed to get 4spd hell horses for what i would consider cheap, and some people would consider 4s just free and 5s something cheap for regular horses. Also horses can be bred to make more if you have the skill. The rare tools can be imped if you have the skill. The only difference is maintenance, but in the long run the person can use the product and not need the assistance of the merchant.

 

Putting all that aside, assuming the market IS saturated, I would hate to see the result of a huge amount of rares turn into a few supremes and fantastics. I would rather see more effects from rarity or just leaving the current rare items in the dust by adding difficult to make tools that are rewarding.

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Adding more effects to rarity could be nice, but that wouldn't effect much the saturation of the rare market, if everyone already have a "rare something" making it more interesting won't change the fact that everyone already have one.

You would hate to see huge amount of rares turned to fantastic why exactly? lol. How should this concern you if they aren't yours, you just want them to become so cheap that eventually people will start giving them away for free like the horses you got? Well, if you don't care about the market-life and your playstile is entirely different, i can't realy expect this suggestion to appeal you.

If you are a casual player and you don't trust me, then just ask anybody else that is in trading, prices usually aren't dropping because people tend to even keep multiple copies of the same rare before givng them away for 1-2s.
I understand they still feel pricey to casual players, but honestly, if you complain about rares that were sold for 3-5s even in the good days, what are you going to do about drake armors-tomes and other stuff that costs around 1 gold?
Some thing are simply not really meant for casual players.

The problem isn't really "they are selling for x silvers" the problem is: "everybody already have one or more"

And yes, this will make fantastics slightly more easier to get, but at least possible if you set your mind on it and not entirely depending on ridiculously low random chance. 
Seriously, don't expect to see a saturation of the fantastic tools market anytime in the next 10 years, even if this proposition gets done without any restriction on rare-spamming.

Anyway, i also agreed with the suggestion that there should be some limitations introduced for the grinding of rares (both for non-prem chars and for the actual chance of making them by spamming creation)


 

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