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Neville

The Wurm Online Market Overall

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The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Wurm Online market, its submarkets, supply, demand, value, population, or other factors that influence the market overall. It's a place to have a healthy conversation about changes over time that have had either positive or negative consequences on the market, players' ability to make in-game currency, get the items they need/want, etc.

 

The goal of this thread is for the Wurm Online community at large to have a place to discuss these things and perhaps give some visibility to certain issues or problems that affect the market overall or even a specific submarket. The developers are doing a great job making improvements to the game. I believe it doesn't hurt to have this discussion though as it may guide future positive changes to the game.

 

Share this thread and tell us what "you" think.

 

P.S. Do not focus on the topic of selling in-game currency for real money. Keep it within the confines of in-game currency for the purpose of buying and selling in-game goods or services.

 

Edited by Neville
Refining the focus of this thread.
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One of the biggest pluses for this game is that you can earn real money in it.  One of the greatest downfalls for this game is that you can earn real money in it.

 

I get that people are addicted to selling things to make money in a game as a job or its some roleplay thing or something but I don't ever think that anything about the game should majorly choose muh markets over actually improving the quality of the game

 

Iron plate for example is a massive bonus to newer players to getting good "high end" non-dragon armor.  This is way more valuable to the game than some market for armor that might've been previously restricted behind a metallurgy wall.  Nevermind that on freedom steel plate is still stronger anyway...

Edited by MrGARY
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didn't we do this thread already a few times? 

 

this helps new players a lot to making their own decent armor early on. The "meh markets" argument should never win against making the game more accessible for new players imho

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Chain armour was already near dead... what about how Iron plate completely and utterly finished off chain armour (Barding not included)?

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Contrary to popular belief, Plate is not dead. Chaos is. PAS was closely tied to Chaos. No one bought plate before for freedom, because once it looses quality, finding someone to imp it back up with steel was a nightmare. Steel is expensive and chain or leather worked fine, so people used that instead. Now there is in fact a market since Iron is viable on Freedom as much as Chain is.

 

I find it abhorrent that people think they have a right to demand or stop changes to the game in a way that helps their "business". The fact that you make money out of the game should have zero weight in the development decisions staff make. This game is not for you to make money, its for me to have fun. The fact people are allowed to cash out on their time its just a bonus and not a right.

 

Plate, along with the many other new skills that "ruined" people's business have been an improvement. A big one. When people complain about a change, talk to me about how it imbalances pvp, or how it gives a smaller number of players an advantage over the whole. Or how it damaged your favorite in game activity. Don't talk to me about how it ruins your bottom line.

 

Those who leveled metallurgy and platesmithing with the intention of using it have seen no change, myself included. In fact, I have mostly switched to Iron Plate since its so much easier now to imp. But then again I have PAS to imp my own stuff and help my friends.

 

Maybe the problem is not the changes, but the use you give to your skills.

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2 minutes ago, Nomadikhan said:

Chain armour was already near dead... what about how Iron plate completely and utterly finished off chain armour (Barding not included)?

I thought there wasnt a Market for plate now?

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As a former boat builder who was a part of the boat market, I've watched the boat market steadily crash over the past 3+ years..until it's to the point where it's not worth the effort (Money-wise) put into making a boat to make one to sell.

I say this as a almost 66 skill shipbuilder who has built 2 rowboats, 2 sailboats, corb, 2 cogs, 3 knarrs, a caravel. Tack on the fact there was a guy who somehow made 100 knarrs for some video(To brag?), and the market for those is basically obsolete.

It's not that I can't make another one to sell, it's that I'm like 'Why bother?' now. Knarrs used to be upwards of 16-18s, and 22-24s for a caravel....now you'd be extremely lucky to pull 6-8s for a knarr, and maybe 16-18s (Maybe less) for a caravel.

I offer to free imp(rove) peoples boats to 70 QL if they stop by my place and I haven't even had a taker on that for nearly a year now. It's like boats just don't decay enough for people to need repair-work/re-imps done. I've basically hopped out of the market and do other stuff now. (73+ Fine Carp and rising...) I had basically been maintaining my deed with foraging/botanizing/burying/fighting coins...and wasn't even needing to trade anymore to maintain upkeep. (Which was helpful for long term play)

I currently sit on 50s worth of coin in my bank and anything over that goes directly into my upkeep. I was up to 180 days upkeep at one point. It's probably closer to 155 days now...because I haven't been doing stuff that would gather a coin of late. Basically the only thing I really 'need' now is some chants on my stuff, and I don't really feel like paying for that kind of stuff. I'd rather be able to work on skills and be able to do it myself...(Which would require a priest re-work, but we all know the game's income source is tied up in those...hence all the new things they add that cater to priests...like blessing lights/transmute liquids. So that likely won't happen. And I'll remain without enchants on my stuff...because I love a challenge anyway...)

 

I'm not sure where the markets currently lie on most stuff other than bulks, and even that's starting to look like it's crashing/not worth the old 'this was the usual price'. People are trying to low-ball gems even, like half the market price they used to go for...so I have a large bag of gems that won't sell either...

I don't know if it's too few players, or what, but something's definitely up.

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I have never seen anyone in iron plate tet, i dont even know what it looks like. Maybe people figuredcout plates just way more expensive than chain for no additional protection against troĺls, the only strongish pve mob...

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Make all the subtle changes you want... but there will always be 100 sellers to 1 buyer for ingame goods.... Iron, steel or otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Mclavin said:

Plate, weapons etc need to have damage with use lowered but no repair option. only way

 

Now that would suck, and it wouldn't even make sense. :P

 

Quite frankly, I want the economy of Freedom to stay on Freedom. The more I hear of it, the less I like it.

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5 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

Or how it damaged your favorite in game activity. Don't talk to me about how it ruins your bottom line.

 

A lot of people find enjoyment or fulfillment when they can use their skills to do something that other people are willing to trade for. It's not necessarily about earning money, it's about feeling useful or accomplished.

 

To give an example and also contribute my own gripe to this thread: hellhorse unhitching. I liked my fast wagon. I liked it so much that I geared up to start selling themed speedwagons with perfect trait hellhorses, gear, and kingdom wagons. Then the patch happened. Now I don't get my business, but it's not the silver I miss (don't need it), it's that I don't get to be the guy that sells awesome hellhorse wagons.

Edited by LaRue
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the only thing that drives a market is demand, until there is more players in the game demanding goods the market will be as it is

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11 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

the only thing that drives a market is demand, until there is more players in the game demanding goods the market will be as it is

 

With new players comes new sellers.  Still 50 sellers per 1 buyer.  

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12 minutes ago, LaRue said:

 

A lot of people find enjoyment or fulfillment when they can use their skills to do something that other people are willing to trade for. It's not necessarily about earning money, it's about feeling useful or accomplished.

 

To give an example and also contribute my own gripe to this thread: hellhorse unhitching. I liked my fast wagon. I liked it so much that I geared up to start selling themed speedwagons with perfect trait hellhorses, gear, and kingdom wagons. Then the patch happened. Now I don't get my business, but it's not the silver I miss (don't need it), it's that I don't get to be the guy selling awesome hellhorse wagons.

There is nothing wrong with marketing stuff. That's not what I am trying to say. If you want to make a business out of it, by all means. Even trading for real life cash is fine. Its commonplace here.

 

What I mean is, it shouldnt be weighted when considering if we should do changes to the game. Supply and demand will eventually adjust itself, and new content should always triumph over the market.

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if you want to make business in wurm, you should treat it like real life business and follow where demand is :P the game will keep changing, the playerbase too, you can't profit forever from one and the same thing, it doesn't work that way. adapt to survive.

Edited by Miretta
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7 hours ago, elroth said:

didn't we do this thread already a few times? 

 

this helps new players a lot to making their own decent armor early on. The "meh markets" argument should never win against making the game more accessible for new players imho

This

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Mix an old game full of veterans with high skills, low influx of new players and player retention and add a currency that is bought with real money (which is basically the only way to get money as a new player unless you consider making thousands of bricks to buy a tool at low success chances engaging gameplay) and you get a shitty economy.

 

Wurm is really a hopeless case in that regard. The economy is - in my humble opinion - one of the reasons why new people do not stick around.

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The economy does not seem to have been a focus for the game, or for dev decisions, and that's exactly how it should be.  It's a side effect, not a feature.  As has already been pointed out, if you want to continue to make money, you need to move with the changing market - new content means new markets to exploit.  There are folks making plenty of cash, and fair play to them, but I'm eternally grateful that the devs do not take the player economy into account (or, at least, not in any major way) when planning development.

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The fact, that ingame money is tied to real money, means that trading and economy should be something that is being focused on, not slowly phased out.

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I said this many times over, Ill say it in this thread too. The dying economy drives existing players away. Massively. I know for sure a total of 16 (yes SIXTEEEN) people that lost interest in the game because they cannot sell anything worth their time anymore.

 

In a game that is struggling, this is the last thing you want to do - drive people away. Sure, there are - and always will be - hermits that will want to do everything on their own, and I have nothing against that type of people, but I will argue that they have far less influence on the game as the ones that are actively trading and exchanging items. Because you see, those have all the interest of having MORE trading partners. That motivates those people, at least in theory, to tell others about this game in the first place.

 

The argument that once you reach high end skill you don't need to buy stuff off the market is quite false. I regularly buy things I cannot make, like low ql logs and low ql iron, and even rare stuff I cannot be bothered to spend 100 hours creating.

 

Now the real ELEPHANT in the room is WHY the market is been dying since I joined wurm 6+ years ago. Is because of the constant increase of average skill in the game. The more skill you have, the fewer items you need, the more you can sustain yourself. This is basic logic. But because accounts can be sold when people get bored (due to the failing economy as one of the reasons) - their accounts do not die off, but they get repurposed by being bought out. So instead of the average skill in any skill being constant over time (by new players joining and old accounts dieing), the average skill in any skill is increasing all the time.

 

Now, even those that bought the new accounts, quickly realize that they cannot use them to make money...because of a dieing economy - that creates the vicious cycle that is driving population numbers down, the economy down and the interest in wurm down.

 

And before anyone goes on a rant....there are only 3 types of players in wurm at core: hermits, traders and fighters. Number-wise, absolutely the largest part are the traders. They should be the focus if you want Wurm not to die off.

 

The solution is simple: ban the sale of accounts, but not of silver. That boosts the economy in all aspects, whilst keeping the incentive of getting real money from your work in wurm. Heck, that would motivate some people to play wurm more hours per day even, to better their chars rather than just buying one...

 

PS: how that ban should work, mechanics-wise, is not my place to say, the devs are paid, they know what is possible in wurm, they can come up with ideas. And sure, there will always be some stray accounts being sold here and there that escape the wurm account sale ban, but arguably far too few to seriously jeopardize the normalization of average skills

Edited by Thorakkanath
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This market is not being affected by Tempe introduction of iron plate its being affected by the fact that there is very little new players that stick around and many older players leaving.. Population is this markets biggest problem. Now with that said yes some help could be given by the devs by simply giving steel plate the same speed bonus that epic gets... This would not only help the market but even more so new players as well. 

 

This is just one of many problems wurm has which they refuse to make any real positive changes to. 

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I don't think expecting the development of the game to protect your specific market interests is reasonable.

 

Also, like others have said this is a buyer's market. Supply is at an all time high compared to demand that i've ever seen it, for all markets... not just steel or plate... and iron plate has definitely had little to NO impact on markets IMO. . other than making it easier for people to grind PAS now (which i'm pumped about, not gonna lie) The only way the market will return to it's glory is by getting more players into the game. Which the game needs anyway for tons of other reasons. Which is also something else that would help draw more players (funny how that works, but full servers are much more fun than what we have now...)

 

I'd wear iron plate, but I wouldn't pay 5s for the set you were offering. I think that was a case of overvaluing the item you were auctioning. (but I don't want to derail this thread, if you're interested though, shoot me a PM and i'll explain my thoughts on that further).

 

Bottom line is really this: unless you're selling something no one else can get, or you're the only one offering the specific item and the buyer isn't patient... you're going to have to lower your price to get the sale. Tons of bulk items are selling at as low as HALF of what they used to. The people who sell those bulk items are also the people buying the enchants, armor, weapons, etc. When they're getting half on their items they sell with the same time investment why would they pay the same price on everything else? 

 

Everything's price is down, toon sales, enchants, armor, weapons, bulk material, rares.. all of it. The only things maintaining a high price are the legacy and ultra scarce goods like scale / hide and potions.

 

 

 

 

 

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Let me first say that a lot of people myself included, like the aspect of Wurm that involves selling and being a merchant. Think of it as a skill with no levels maybe, I know a lot of you are weird about this though and are not interested in it. However I don't think it's wise to completely ruin free trade because you don't agree with it. It should be fixed, things like trade chat, wagoneers were a start but it's still very limited.

 

How do you really fix it? 

We need new higher end crafts and useful things that low level players can do. Allow new players while under newbie buff to have increased luck on certain high end reagents. Maybe add rare rolls for a new material, that can be useful to high level players (No that isn't forcing them to make bulk and quit). It needs to go both ways high and low to increase economic performance and balance the overall markets. Let's look at the rare market, everyone is doing it currently, far to many to be honest. However let's say there was a way to use rares to make a supreme out of them, could be like 4 rares per supreme. Combing rares should be a high level craft. A lot of things would fix overnight. Now you have people interested in rares again.

 

Players what do they do?

I would even go as far as saying we need more people to play which I think everyone agree on. However that's up the the development team and staff to figure out, it starts by fixing basic systems like UI, Tutorial, and the Newbie Experience - which I think they're working on.

 

Why is PvP good?

A lot of people seem to ignore or be arrogant to the fact that PvPers spend the most money in the markets when they are playing. Currently it's at a all time low, they are not buying anymore because they are not playing. Fixing PvP is a must for fixing the economy. OP the plate market has always been slow on freedom but like others have pointed out PvPers bought most of the sets. Steel is still better. PvPers need to work together and make useful feedback so change happens, this really needs to happen.

 

Account selling/buying is bad?

This is a hard one because its hurting the game overall, some people are blind to the truth. Honestly at this point I'd try to figure a way to discourage account sales, maybe if it changes hands it looses a perk that could ultimately ruin the account. Its hard to stop but easy to work around.

 

 

Hope this helps. Thanks.

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