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Nappy

Bringing a gasp of life back to Epic

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There have been a number of threads predicting or in some cases declaring Epic dead. It is true that Epic population is no longer even close to what was experienced 2 years ago when Elevation was refreshed.

 

However despite the predictions there is a group of dedicated people in JK who are making a go at making Epic work. I think similar small groups exist in Rome, BL and MR. For this thread I would really like to avoid kingdom drama and focus instead on Epic as a whole, with emphasis on moving forward with what's best for all players and all kingdoms on the Epic cluster whether they are Elevation or on a home island. As a result I will give away some information that normally is never shared openly.

 

1) JK has about 10 active players on Elevation. This is active players and doesn't include their alts. With alts the number is higher. I believe other kingdoms have around the same approximate number of active, every day, players. I could be wrong, haven't invested in spies, don't care to either

 

2) A quiet war has been going on with BL, Rome and JK for at least 5 weeks now where deaths are no longer appearing in the forum threads. This gives the wrongful impression of a quiet, dead cluster for those who aren't participating here. In reality there have been deaths on all sides, close to 20 I believe at this point. This does not include the flasher group deaths that are often advertised

 

3) Many of the JK players came over from Freedom to try out PVP. They did this knowing that their skills can't be lost on Freedom, they can teleport home at any time and we are offering PVP training as much as possible to ramp them up quickly. After each battle we also do a post-mortem to learn from what took place. Hopefully our enemies will agree that our fighting abilities are rapidly improving as a result

 

4) We have at least 5 highly skilled weaponsmiths, platesmiths, enchanting priests etc. What this means is we don't really care if gear is lost in combat, we will replace it for anyone who is actively engaging in PVP. For us what is important is becoming part of the team and most importantly, having fun while you are here

 

5) Two weeks ago we enjoyed 17 hours of PVP between the various kingdom PVP drop bys. People participated as their time allowed and we had a great time.

 

6) While grinding on Freedom means you preserve your skill gains even if you die here, an advantage to grinding on Epic is that you more quickly close the gap with the higher end accounts and in many ways the grind is more natural because it often happens while building up deeds, weapons, plate etc

 

7) A polite war is also occurring. The higher skilled accounts are often leaving the lower level account gear behind after a death allowing them to get back into action quicker. This type of behaviour is appreciated and yet seldom mentioned in the forums

 

I encourage each kingdom to ramp up recruitment and get the action moving forward. This will help significantly. Anyone interested in joining JK in the fight reach out to me and we will get you in the battle, with the gear you need, the training that can help and the encouragement to have a fun time. I encourage the other kingdoms to post their contact info in this thread too.

 

For Retrograde and the Wurm devs there are two remaining things that could make a strong difference.

 

1) Consider either a map refresh of Elevation or tack a brand new server on the cluster. In either case go for a really small map, 1024 x 1024, lots of water around the edges so it's really a max of 650 x 650, add mountains, rivers, valleys, lakes, ravines and put the three template kingdoms on it with really small starter deeds to preserve space (like the smallest you can make). If you add a new server it will preserve people's deeds on elevation if they want to keep them while the much smaller landmass of the new server will lead to a much greater level of excitement as kingdoms trip over each other

 

2) Regardless of your decision about the map changes, clear up the unknown. This, more then anything, is what I believe is leading people to not come out here and engage in the action. That's where Wurm staff can make an immediate and lasting contribution right away.

 

~Nappy

Edited by Nappy
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26 minutes ago, Nappy said:

There have been a number of threads predicting or in some cases declaring Epic dead. It is true that Epic population is no longer even close to what was experienced 2 years ago when Elevation was refreshed.

 

However despite the predictions there is a group of dedicated people in JK who are making a go at making Epic work. I think similar small groups exist in Rome, BL and MR. For this thread I would really like to avoid kingdom drama and focus instead on Epic as a whole, with emphasis on moving forward with what's best for all players and all kingdoms on the Epic cluster whether they are Elevation or on Epic. As a result I will give away some information that normally is never shared openly.

 

1) JK has about 10 active players on Elevation. This is active players and doesn't include their alts. With alts the number is higher. I believe other kingdoms have around the same approximate number of active, every day, players. I could be wrong, haven't invested in spies, don't care to either

 

2) A quiet war has been going on with BL, Rome and JK for at least 5 weeks now where deaths are no longer appearing in the forum threads. This gives the wrongful impression of a quiet, dead cluster for those who aren't participating here. In reality there have been deaths on all sides, close to 20 I believe at this point. This does not include the flasher group deaths that are often advertised

 

3) Many of the JK players came over from Freedom to try out PVP. They did this knowing that their skills can't be lost on Freedom, they can teleport home at any time and we are offering PVP training as much as possible to ramp them up quickly. After each battle we also do a post-mortem to learn from what took place. Hopefully our enemies will agree that our fighting abilities are rapidly improving as a result

 

4) We have at least 5 highly skilled weaponsmiths, platesmiths, enchanting priests etc. What this means is we don't really care if gear is lost in combat, we will replace it for anyone who is actively engaging in PVP. For us what is important is becoming part of the team and most importantly, having fun while you are here

 

5) Two weeks ago we enjoyed 17 hours of PVP between the various kingdom PVP drop bys. People participated as their time allowed and we had a great time.

 

6) While grinding on Freedom means you preserve your skill gains even if you die here, an advantage to grinding on Epic is that you more quickly close the gap with the higher end accounts and in many ways the grind is more natural because it often happens while building up deeds, weapons, plate etc

 

7) A polite war is also occurring. The higher skilled accounts are often leaving the lower level account gear behind after a death allowing them to get back into action quicker. This type of behaviour is appreciated and yet seldom mentioned in the forums

 

I encourage each kingdom to ramp up recruitment and get the action moving forward. This will help significantly. Anyone interested in joining JK in the fight reach out to me and we will get you in the battle, with the gear you need, the training that can help and the encouragement to have a fun time. I encourage the other kingdoms to post their contact info in this thread too.

 

For Retrograde and the Wurm devs there are two remaining things that could make a strong difference.

 

1) Consider either a map refresh of Elevation or tack a brand new server on the cluster. In either case go for a really small map, 1024 x 1024, lots of water around the edges so it's really a max of 650 x 650, add mountains, rivers, valleys, lakes, ravines and put the three template kingdoms on it with really small starter deeds to preserve space (like the smallest you can make). If you add a new server it will preserve people's deeds on elevation if they want to keep them while the much smaller landmass of the new server will lead to a much greater level of excitement as kingdoms trip over each other

 

2) Regardless of your decision about the map changes, clear up the unknown. This, more then anything, is what I believe is leading people to not come out here and engage in the action. That's where Wurm staff can make an immediate and lasting contribution right away.

 

~Nappy

 

 

Agreed, we've been having fun over there with you guys despite all the bugs we keep running into (people appearing out in the water, scale still dropping on the ground when you leave the world with enemies in local) also jaz is a ###### tank wtf.

 

But it seriously takes like 2 hours to go have 20 minutes of fun. Its not worth it for me to do more than once or twice a month lol. If the map wasn't so huge we could have fun pvp daily (where we just do what we've been doing, just casual fights).

 

Also.. I don't understand what happened. Retro had been talking about quick fixes to the map like wands of mountains/bigger dirt wands and ###### we could fill the water to make more direct paths (even then the map is still too big for sub like 500 players honestly) but the point was that we were at least working towards something. But now 4 months has gone by and nothing, skill gains still aren't even properly fixed. 

 

tl:dr we've been abandoned once more I'm pretty sure. 

Edited by platinumteef
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Want more players on epic?  Reset that god awful Elevation map.  

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+1. :) Been a lot of fun skirmishing with BL!

 

Also, I appreciate that Wulvarik (as downright kooky as he is :P ), did the work to become king of JK and the kernel around which JKE has coalesced. Kudos. :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nappy said:

For Retrograde and the Wurm devs there are two remaining things that could make a strong difference.

 

1) Consider either a map refresh of Elevation or tack a brand new server on the cluster. In either case go for a really small map, 1024 x 1024, lots of water around the edges so it's really a max of 650 x 650, add mountains, rivers, valleys, lakes, ravines and put the three template kingdoms on it with really small starter deeds to preserve space (like the smallest you can make). If you add a new server it will preserve people's deeds on elevation if they want to keep them while the much smaller landmass of the new server will lead to a much greater level of excitement as kingdoms trip over each other

 

2) Regardless of your decision about the map changes, clear up the unknown. This, more then anything, is what I believe is leading people to not come out here and engage in the action. That's where Wurm staff can make an immediate and lasting contribution right away.

 

~Nappy

For absolute clarity here, the JK team on Elevation has spent the last 6+ weeks building a proper, strong deed to call our home base. We are talking at least 100 thousand dirt, tens of thousands of brick and mortar, thousands of support beams and of course all the things that have to be done to use that quantity of materials.

 

If we have to give all of that up in order to have a more active, more fun, trip over the enemy playground, we will.

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I didn't suggest a new server, I suggested a replacement for elevation.  Would be a little silly to have two HoTA's, two sets of artifacts, etc.

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What worries me, that there were no staff reaction or any statement about this in last months (since introducting transfers). That's just rude, especially that players asked for any statement few times.

 

People left to freedom and currently they have no reason to come back to Epic. To make it happen:

- There should be new, much smaller map in place of Elevation (map redo won't work, it's too big, even after Elevation reset people complained on travelling times).

- Transfers from freedom to Epic should be one-time only so people would focus only on one cluster.

- Epic should have some unique features, so people would have a reason to play here, instead just nostalgia. Nostalgia doesn't work, most people always go after benefit, like now when we see even old-time hardcore players from Epic playing on freedom just couse of better skillgains. 

 

Most important: talk with the players, there are still players playing on Epic, your customers. Also there are many players (currently on freedom) that would love to come back if they had a reason.

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Most of my (very intensive) years of playtime in Wurm has been spent avoiding the PVP aspects of the game, WO and WU included. What kept me away mostly was the impression that the PVP community is heavily toxic and playing in such an environment would not give the fun and joy I expect from a game. I blame the PVP forum threads for that, most that is posted there are drawing that picture.

When I popped over to Epic when the skill transfers been enabled I found a small but very welcoming group of players and a suprisingly nice and sharing attitude.

A few weeks later I've joined a fresh deed on Elevation which allowed to interact a bit more with the enemy kingdoms and all I experienced are very far from the assumptions I built reading the forums. I was expecting that after showing up on the map enemies will do everything to cut back our attempts to build our roots but all interactions, being fights or chats are making me feel that new people are really welcome to the cluster, and never experienced so far any meaningless or overreacted destruction from any of our enemies.

I'm really happy to live this slightly different Wurm as well, it is a different enough ruleset to provide a fresh experience. It is much more about living in a coherent group and helping each other to prosper than to seek personal achievements like on the Freedom side of world.

With the skill transfers from Freedom and gear provided by (I assume) all kingdoms makes it no hassle and no risk to try it, even if someone is not explicitly interested in fighting - all the PVP fun of building, imping, animal and field tending are there but with an additional meaning and achievement behind it.

 

With my short experience I see a few main issues which may keep interest low in playing on Elevation:

* the map is needlessly huge, you are unlikely to just stumble into enemies, no need to fight for space or resources. Also the map is quite boring, not many interesting spots that would encourage innovative deed designs

* the one way skill transfer discourages players to spend their grinding time on Epic, it easily feels like wasting the time as doing so on Freedom will give the benefit on both clusters. A periodic transfer from Epic (if the maths cannot be integrated to do it on each cluster hop) would help a lot to make player spend more playtime on the Epic cluster.

* Valrei missions are sometimes still quite silly (quantities are ridiculously high compared to active playerbase), and there is very sparse information to be found in general about the Valrei game which could otherwies impress quite a number of players who are interested in competition to play on Epic.

 

TLDR: Epic is fun, give it a try, PVP world is not the bad drama you would expect reading the forums. No risk, nothing to lose, and you can join the established groups for easy access to resources and fun, you can also choose to be part of a larger kingdom or go for a smaller one to help building it up.

 

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1) JK has about 10 active players on Elevation. This is active players and doesn't include their alts. With alts the number is higher. I believe other kingdoms have around the same approximate number of active, every day, players. I could be wrong, haven't invested in spies, don't care to either

Not Rome. We do have people, but not ones that actively play. If you were to run past Rome at a random time in a day, chances are really good that you won't find a single person. However, if you were to come raid Rome, chances are good you'll get outnumbered. This is because the community is also very active on Chaos and people feel there is more point in actively playing over there, while jumping over to Epic for some quick action. It would certainly help to have more motivation to play on Epic.

 

Quote

2) A quiet war has been going on with BL, Rome and JK for at least 5 weeks now where deaths are no longer appearing in the forum threads. This gives the wrongful impression of a quiet, dead cluster for those who aren't participating here. In reality there have been deaths on all sides, close to 20 I believe at this point. This does not include the flasher group deaths that are often advertised

As far as I know, this is very specifically between JK and BL. I think you guys should definitely post more tabs too to tell people what's been going on.

 

Quote

1) Consider either a map refresh of Elevation or tack a brand new server on the cluster. In either case go for a really small map, 1024 x 1024, lots of water around the edges so it's really a max of 650 x 650, add mountains, rivers, valleys, lakes, ravines and put the three template kingdoms on it with really small starter deeds to preserve space (like the smallest you can make). If you add a new server it will preserve people's deeds on elevation if they want to keep them while the much smaller landmass of the new server will lead to a much greater level of excitement as kingdoms trip over each other

I fully agree with a map reset, but not with those criteria. To give an idea of what 650x650 looks like on our current map:

 

d957735dfc.png

 

It would mean we either won't have a hota (not to mention the no-build zone), or hota has to be tiny, which kind of makes for a crappy hota. I think a 1024x1024 map would only work with very little water on the side

 

As far as drama is concerned, it comes and goes in waves. Right now, it is a time of peace and drama is usually contained within kingdoms or communities. There's no real or serious hate between BL, JK and Rome. However, things can flare up again at any time. It could be as easy as running over an alt to the enemy to check their locals or by talking crap on the forums or by griefing deeds for no good reason, it can quickly trigger a "I'm going to run you out of the game" reaction. This means while drama seems alright now, things could be different a few months from now.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, BrQQQ said:

As far as drama is concerned, it comes and goes in waves. Right now, it is a time of peace and drama is usually contained within kingdoms or communities. There's no real or serious hate between BL, JK and Rome. However, things can flare up again at any time. It could be as easy as running over an alt to the enemy to check their locals or by talking crap on the forums or by griefing deeds for no good reason, it can quickly trigger a "I'm going to run you out of the game" reaction. This means while drama seems alright now, things could be different a few months from now.

 

 

 

I would expect more drama with a larger player base of course. What I tried to show is that a server being a PVP map it is not necessarily infects with toxicity.

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14 hours ago, Nappy said:

However despite the predictions there is a group of dedicated people in JK who are making a go at making Epic work. I think similar small groups exist in Rome, BL and MR.

 

True.  Epic is still be a great place, in theory, for a new casual user because you can get into the game comparatively fast... but allowing the one-way skill transfers from Freedom means that any skill grinding work on Epic is almost worthless for a long-term player, so the place is largely empty.  Especially with the Devs being largely quiet around the future plans.  This naturally dissuades new Players who see empty servers.

 

29 minutes ago, BrQQQ said:

However, if you were to come raid Rome, chances are good you'll get outnumbered. This is because the community is also very active on Chaos and people feel there is more point in actively playing over there, while jumping over to Epic for some quick action.

 

I think this may be the case with most kingdoms.  Most of the people I've meet in game have seemingly moved their permanent homes to either Freedom or Chaos, but at the hint of any action a fairly decent force can be recalled to fight.  This sort of suggests to me that Epic still holds a lot of interest for people, if the Devs could just sort out the way forward, or at least give us some hint it's even on their radar...

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fully agree with a smaller map, I would say elevation as it was before the new map in terms of server size. Seeing a light at the end of the tunnel brings some degree of hope for epic, knowing there are skirmishes makes me happy.

 

Hell if the map was shrunk I would be game to play again.

 

Not sure how I feel about a "lot of water" I think it would be good in terms of people not having hell horse access unless they build a landbridge, normal bridge, or frontline deed (the best option of the 3 imo) but part of me knows how face roll boat combat is especially when one side has numbers and boats of rarity.

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2 hours ago, BrQQQ said:

I fully agree with a map reset, but not with those criteria. To give an idea of what 650x650 looks like on our current map:

 

d957735dfc.png

 

It would mean we either won't have a hota (not to mention the no-build zone), or hota has to be tiny, which kind of makes for a crappy hota. I think a 1024x1024 map would only work with very little water on the side

I appreciate the visualization you did there, made me step back for a moment and do a bit of memory recall. If all they did was put in a 1024 map again it would be a quarter of it's current size which is a HUGE step toward the goal of closeness that almost makes people trip over each other.

 

On DesV3 we did indeed have a much smaller HOTA site, it was either 50 x 50 with a 50 x 50 no build zone around it or 100 x 100 with a 100 x 100. Either way much smaller and I think it was likely 50 x 50. That would indeed play a role in the final design.

 

For my part my ultimate desire is to see a much smaller map then current where enemies almost trip over each other. That will likely lead very quickly to some fun times. The other parts I am not stuck on details at all.

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16 hours ago, Roccandil said:

+1. :) Been a lot of fun skirmishing with BL!

 

Also, I appreciate that Wulvarik (as downright kooky as he is :P ), did the work to become king of JK and the kernel around which JKE has coalesced. Kudos. :)

 

Most of the raids seem to have happened either just before or just after my playtime, but I can always tell when BL's been by because my poor potatoes have been shot to hell and back with arrows.

 

It's been some good times for the ones I've been around for though.

 

Glad to have you all on board.  I'm just the crazy bastard that put on a shiny hat and planted my flag in the woods, you're the guys that make it a kingdom.

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19 minutes ago, Nappy said:

I appreciate the visualization you did there, made me step back for a moment and do a bit of memory recall. If all they did was put in a 1024 map again it would be a quarter of it's current size which is a HUGE step toward the goal of closeness that almost makes people trip over each other.

 

On DesV3 we did indeed have a much smaller HOTA site, it was either 50 x 50 with a 50 x 50 no build zone around it or 100 x 100 with a 100 x 100. Either way much smaller and I think it was likely 50 x 50. That would indeed play a role in the final design.

 

For my part my ultimate desire is to see a much smaller map then current where enemies almost trip over each other. That will likely lead very quickly to some fun times. The other parts I am not stuck on details at all.

 

Keep in mind 1024x1024 is not 1/4th but 1/16th of our current map size. Here's an illustration, the lines aren't perfectly accurate but you get the idea

 

f37a31930a.png

 

If we want the quarter of the current map, we need a 2048x2048 sized map, which is the same as the old Elevation. Personally I don't either, though I'd expect a lot of land in 1024x1024. The fights being so close is very appealing

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Just now, BrQQQ said:

If we want the quarter of the current map, we need a 2048x2048 sized map, which is the same as the old Elevation. Personally I don't either, though I'd expect a lot of land in 1024x1024. The fights being so close is very appealing

 

Agreed.

 

I mean, I'd hate to give up what we've built if it's just gonna end up ignored and desolate again, but it'd be awesome to have some stabby neighbours.

 

I've pretty much given up on casually hopping in the boat and going to look for some solo excitement.  Done that a few times, with nothing to show for hours of sailing.  Bigger targets need much more co-ordination.

 

How awesome would it be to just run 10 minutes, high-five the neighbour in his face, then head home and have a nap?

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11 minutes ago, BrQQQ said:

 

Keep in mind 1024x1024 is not 1/4th but 1/16th of our current map size. Here's an illustration, the lines aren't perfectly accurate but you get the idea

 

f37a31930a.png

 

If we want the quarter of the current map, we need a 2048x2048 sized map, which is the same as the old Elevation. Personally I don't either, though I'd expect a lot of land in 1024x1024. The fights being so close is very appealing

I think you and I are on the same page in terms of ultimate goal. For some reason I thought Elevation was 4096 rather 8192 in size. Either way it's way too large for the population and since conflict often comes when people feel crowded, it's time to get a much, much, much smaller map. Really open to discussing final details.

 

Now if we could get @Retrogradeand the Wurm devs to take this thread seriously and actively participate it would be very greatly appreciated. I made a show of faith that Epic was going somewhere by doing an annual prem when the update came out. Please show us this wasn't a misplaced act of faith/trust.

 

So far this thread has no kingdom drama in it. All it has are concerned players who want to see Epic move forward.

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35 minutes ago, Nappy said:

So far this thread has no kingdom drama in it.

 

[Canadian drama] I respectfully disagree.  [/Canadian drama]

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47 minutes ago, Nappy said:

I think you and I are on the same page in terms of ultimate goal. For some reason I thought Elevation was 4096 rather 8192 in size. Either way it's way too large for the population and since conflict often comes when people feel crowded, it's time to get a much, much, much smaller map. Really open to discussing final details.

 

Now if we could get @Retrogradeand the Wurm devs to take this thread seriously and actively participate it would be very greatly appreciated. I made a show of faith that Epic was going somewhere by doing an annual prem when the update came out. Please show us this wasn't a misplaced act of faith/trust.

 

So far this thread has no kingdom drama in it. All it has are concerned players who want to see Epic move forward.

 

It is 4096x4096. However 1024x1024 is 1/16th of 4096x4096. 


See it likes this, 4096*4096 tiles means there are 16 777 216 tiles. 1024*1024 means there are 1 048 576 tiles. With that, you can see that you can fit a 1024*1024 map exactly 16 times in a 4096*4096 map.

 

I know it's a bit pedantic, but it's relevant in trying to visualize the size of the map we want. Do we want 1/16th of our current map or 1/4th? There's obviously a huge difference there.

 

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2 minutes ago, BrQQQ said:

 

It is 4096x4096. However 1024x1024 is 1/16th of 4096x4096. 


See it likes this, 4096*4096 tiles means there are 16 777 216 tiles. 1024*1024 means there are 1 048 576 tiles. With that, you can see that you can fit a 1024*1024 map exactly 16 times in a 4096*4096 map.

 

I know it's a bit pedantic, but it's relevant in trying to visualize the size of the map we want. Do we want 1/16th of our current map or 1/4th? There's obviously a huge difference there.

 

Damn, I used to be really good at this kind of thing. Thanks for the much appreciated clarification. Personally I think I want as small as possible.

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I think there should definitely be room for somebody to "###### off" on their own in without needing to be directly involved with one of the major powers, but not large enough that it's a ghost town.

 

I'd suspect 2048 would be a good middle-ground. I could run from HH to old-Starkborough by land in what I'd consider a reasonable-ish time, and that's a lot of ground for somebody to get lost in.

 

1024 is just a bit over twice the distance between my deed and HH.  If the border were at the half mark, there'd be no buffer at all.  The first kingdom to get a good night and press their advantage would "win" Elevation.

 

That might make for a fun challenge-type map, but somebody would inevitably control it all.

 

Edit:  The above, of course, depends a lot on how much of the map is taken up by the water.  A full-land 1024x1024 is quite different from a watery 1024x1024.  I'd still want a fair bit of water around, though how much is up for debate.

Edited by Wulvarik

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Minimum size has to be 8x8.

Maximum size has to be limited to 10x10.

 

I personally think something similar to Celebration would be an excellent map. Here is a mock up I did based off the Celebration map. 

 

As you may notice the red square... this would be the hota section. No building bridges to the land mass allowed. 

 

I know a lot of people will complain about the lack of crossing, but this is just a concept map.

 

1290c60fb4.jpg

 

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We need to think a little further than our noses and consider what qq has passed that lead to this point

 

Elevation was the size it was because qq Chaos was too big

Elevation was made bigger because qq no room for more PMKs and qq you can get everywhere too fast and fights are determined by who can call the most backup

 

Now I'm reading you want it smaller than old Elevation? This is unsettling, sure it may work right now in the awful state its in but we want the server to grow not make it perfect for 30 players.

 

Bring back old Elevation! it was fine people were just looking for a scapegoat

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3 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

We need to think a little further than our noses and consider what qq has passed that lead to this point

 

Elevation was the size it was because qq Chaos was too big

Elevation was made bigger because qq no room for more PMKs and qq you can get everywhere too fast and fights are determined by who can call the most backup

 

Now I'm reading you want it smaller than old Elevation? This is unsettling, sure it may work right now in the awful state its in but we want the server to grow not make it perfect for 30 players.

 

Bring back old Elevation! it was fine people were just looking for a scapegoat

 

Old Elevation had to go, it was absolutely trashed because of the amount of events. I think a similar size map needs to come back. 

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Also, I would make HoTA work differently. 


Get rid of the cap 4 pillars and win scenario. Make HoTA a timed event.

 

Make it who ever caps the most pillars in a 30 minute period wins. 5-10 pillars would spawn. Each pillar that is conquered disappears and a new one spawns in its place randomly in the HoTA zone.

 

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