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Baloo

Restoring Tundra Project - Mt Tundra

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Oh, and also: I will never cut down your trees, since I am not interested in a tit for tat argument in which you will retalliate by packing more tundra and so on. An agreement is what I want, not a war.

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Ah, you see before I spoke to anyone, I was upset you all had decided my deed should be bordered by tundra, if I had wanted a deed in the tundra I would of planted one on the side of the mountain. So to push back your efforts I created the 'buffer' zone, I got bored after packing 500+ tiles that night, or I would of went the whole way.

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Just a reminder, the only way to prevent modification is to deed it.

 

As a resident of Exodus, I'm all for the free modification of land. The slow change of Wurm's landscape is one of the magical things about it, and the initial post angered me. Do not tell a player what they can and can't do to undeeded land.

 

Deed it.

 

Edit: I also dislike the map provided. Way too much tundra. I'd scale it back to the caldera (I guess?) and a small area around it. 

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Also I see a lot of questions about spawning of creatures and spreading of tundra. I will try to get into the code later today and provide some official answers.

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2 hours ago, Keenan said:

Also I see a lot of questions about spawning of creatures and spreading of tundra. I will try to get into the code later today and provide some official answers.

 

Tundra spreads more slowly as it spreads diagonally, however a tundra tile present in the radius of another tile reduces the chance for grass to spread. So tundra can spread, but diagonally NE/SE/NW/SW from an existing tundra tile.

 

There are no spawns on tundra at all. That said, I'm fearful that such a large tundra area would inhibit the hunting experience so many of us love about Exodus. Steppe, on the other hand, provides the same clear visibility as tundra as well as spawns. Perhaps we can compromise on a step border around a smaller section of tundra? That would then become a prime hunting ground and be much more pleasant to look at than a giant desert.

 

I'd also participate and lend a hand in that if it were the case, as a player of course!

 

Thoughts?

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8 minutes ago, Keenan said:

There are no spawns on tundra at all.

 

This is what I suspected all along, but never seen a large enough area to test the theory out till now.

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With the spawning limit for the server, if you had a larger area with no spawns - wouldn't it mean a denser spawn everywhere else?

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56 minutes ago, Kurson said:

With the spawning limit for the server, if you had a larger area with no spawns - wouldn't it mean a denser spawn everywhere else?

 

It may create some denser areas, but not in the way you're thinking. That's a lot of zones being taken up by tundra, which means fewer zones to have spawns in.

My suggestion creates a new hunting area that can be enjoyed by everyone, not just a select few who like tundra. It's more in the spirit of a community project.

 

If we can't come to an agreement, I'll have to campaign for my suggestion instead may the most support win.

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Hi Keenan.

Thank you for stating your mind on this subject. I'm a bit occupied this weekend and would prefer to make my mind before saying anything. I will try to do that on monday.

In the meantime, it would be good if you took a map and shown us how you'd see the modifications to the project. Please try not to break existing work already done by my friends. Please remember creatures wander into tundra upon spawning, so steppe does not need to be planted over existing tundra areas... lets not remove it.

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First of all, the Mt Tundra project was not started to create a quarrel.

For me, the tundra is more about the memory of the way it was in the beginning - and I think this is so for many other players.

Our main objective is to restore Mt Tundra to the way it looked originally, at least approximately.

Maybe it need not be as large as before, if we have to compromise.

Here is my suggestion that may works for all

38eb3f00a58574aa5aff6e4e45fb483a.png

Edited by Majqo

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just as well pave the entire thing in gravel, no creature spawns means less hunting for exodus, I prefer to do the pointless animal killing on exodus, not having to travel to some other server

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First off, for anyone who has made the inaccurate assumption that I'm easily bought or swayed by other people: you're wrong. My concern is always for what's best on the whole. That's not just my job, but also my stance as a player. I should also disclose that yes, Jake and I share an alliance. We created this alliance over four years ago, and it became the alliance that Mol Rehan joined when the kingdom came over. Yet, as I'm sure they can attest, I'm a tenuous member at best. I'm distant and I have no qualms with telling them all how I feel when I feel they've done something that isn't the best for the entire server. For example, you'll not find me at any MR-controlled unique slayings. I disagree with anyone "owning" a slaying. I don't care who it is.

 

So I strongly suggest anyone who feels I'm acting on any other behalf but my own to reconsider their thoughts. If you still think I am acting on behalf of other players unfairly, then I recommend you report that to Enki. I'd rather an investigation that will show no wrong-doing than harboring of ill feelings.

 

So on the whole:

1) I utterly disagree with the idea that people feel they can prevent the use of land (including changing it) without using the built-in mechanics. That's not what Wurm is about.

2) Of those mechanics includes deeds, and to a limited degree, heritage sites. I disagree with heritage sites that are not functional and serve no benefit to the community.

3) Tundra is a cosmetic-only tile, with the singular exception of ligonberry bushes. Tundra tiles prevent spawns much in the same way a deed might.

4) Tundra is not as incapable of spreading as folks seem to think, so I am concerned that such a large area could actually affect others by spreading.

 

My suggestion was to reduce the radius of the tundra area by about 25% - not a straight cut, but a general guideline. In that area, fill it with steppe.

 

This provides the following benefits:

1) Prevents the spread of tundra beyond the mountain.

2) Allows for creatures to spawn that will eventually wander onto the tundra creating a valuable hunting area.

3) Create a visible separation that others can use as a guideline for the future.

 

Also, in my opinion, this look better overall given that tundra is supposed to be a "cold" biome, thus steppe tapering into tundra makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Keep in mind though, even if there's a compromise or if work continues, you cannot call "griefing" on people changing the terrain. I'm not a GM, but I know enough about how things work to know it'd become an argument about intention. That's not exactly something that would make any GM happy to get into as it would be quite muddy as to what the intention actually is. Like for me, if I changed the area *I* think should be steppe, I'm not intending grief. I'm simply using the mechanics to enact my own opinion on land that isn't protected. You have to accept this fact.

 

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10 hours ago, LordLouis said:

Has anyone thought of maybe changing tundra to allow spawns.. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/glossary/gloss5/biome/tundra.html.. plenty of animals live on tundra in the real world, why not make it a bit more useful. 

 

Of course, but that won't be happening any time soon, if at all. It would undoubtedly have a major impact on all servers and isn't something we'd be doing lightly if we did.

 

Do use the suggestions section, but keep in mind it's not a simple task.

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Hello once again, everyone.

 

 

Steppe vs Tundra:

 

I have been gathering opinions on the matter and it seems we will have to put these both approaches to a vote.

 

Here is the consensus argumentation for keeping true to original Tundra project plan:

  1. The choice to plant tundra over entire area is motivated by aestetics and wish to restore the look and feel of that area from the early days of Exodus.
  2. The steppe does not look aesthetically pleasing.
  3. The hunting potential does not play as important factor, because:
    • The stakeholders do not feel they need more hunting grounds on Exodus (they are speaking for themselves only).
    • This area was not previously prepared by anyone as a hunting ground, so no damage is being done in this regard.
    • The hunting potential of clear tundra area is still maintained, as tundra will border with other terrain at a volume similar to today levels.
    • Reduction of spawnable area will not influence creature counts, as other areas will spawn creatures more often. Albeit the effect is marginal, it is beneficial for other hunting areas.
  4. The borders of the project were lined up with roads and other terrain features, greatly reducing the work required to barrier other terrain from spreading over prepared dirt.

I am going to represent this side. Keenan, you have already put your argumentation forth, are you going to represent the other side?

How should we proceed with voting?

There is also a lingering question, whether steppe-side is prepared to cooperate on the project, by contributing steppe-planting related work, including creating required sand barriers.

 

 

Aestetic issue with recently planted trees:

 

There is a request from a member, that there is a change of type of trees (olive) recently planted along sandstone highway.

 

It is requested that (ideally) no trees are between sandstone highway and tundra project area. If that is unacceptable, preferred type of tree could be any fruit tree except olive. 

The reason behind this request is aesthetics.

 

The requestor is not willing do the work involved in removal or changing tree types, asking instead the olive planter to do the work. The reason behind this stance is: type of trees was not consulted beforehand and there is a suspicion of an ill intent in the choice of the tree type.

 

I should mention that type of tree was not part of my agreement with the planter. We have agreed only that trees can be planted at 5 tiles depth along sandstone highway.

 

If this request is refused, I'd like to ask for a counter proposal that may please both sides.

 

 

Thank you.

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There is no way to do a vote on this, as any busy body from any server will stick there nose into it.

 

Olive tree's are a good source of oil.

 

Cut them down my tree's and I will devote a few hours every night to stamping out tundra, I think I can pack tiles faster than you can transmute them, all though we can put our persistence to the test.

 

You people had zero consideration for what others wanted, you just want things the way you want it, why should anyone bend to your view points?

 

Before the tree extinction event, there was plenty of places around the tundra to spawn stuff to slay, now its just a empty barren wasteland with the odd chicken roaming around.

 

 

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This reminds me about the oaks on Deli.

Just that then Jakes feelings were with the one converting a whole area.

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When players change vast expanses of free land it is bound to upset someone, be it with tundra, steepe, trees, sand, dirt or whatever. Sure, anyone can do anything they wish with it but it does seem that at least Aldur is attempting to reach some compromise amongst those concerned with this area. Hopefully they can work something out.

 

=Ayes=

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Tundra is ugly. The entire project is founded on an objective pretense.

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2 hours ago, Ayes said:

When players change vast expanses of free land it is bound to upset someone, be it with tundra, steepe, trees, sand, dirt or whatever. Sure, anyone can do anything they wish with it but it does seem that at least Aldur is attempting to reach some compromise amongst those concerned with this area. Hopefully they can work something out.

 

=Ayes=

 

I could pick a mountain and pave it in marble slabs, might look cool, but should I do it?

 

I happen to like oaktree's CC, if they put tundra mountain into a Oak mountain, I would be fine with that, at least the oaks are useful.

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Ah, it is often like that, that we like things per se, just not when it's in our hood.

I don't mind deserts, only when they have suddenly appeared in my local as an example.

So us the neighbours sand and dirt the tiles back and forth (will do when I get time) lol.

 

Us bystanders ofc hope you guys will reach a level that works for the neighbours.

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My opinion only:

 

Let's go back to simple and play by the rules. If it's undeeded land it's fair game for terraforming to anyone's whim. For this topic at this time having votes or discussions about it further is useless- that's just not how the developers intended Wurm life. If you don't like it petition the right people to get the rules changed.

 

People want tundra make it.

...

People hate tundra they destroy it.

...

Etc.

...

 

Sooner or later the two "opposing philosophies" will play the issue out in game. Who knows what the land might look like when they are done!

 

Groups getting together for large terraforming projects via the forum is a great feature of the game! Just don't expect permanency unless it's deeded or protected in some game mechanic/heritage site format. That is working as intended.

 

Personally I don't like the look of a huge tundra colored feature. I'm glad I don't have a deed within sight of it.

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17 hours ago, JakeRivers said:

There is no way to do a vote on this, as any busy body from any server will stick there nose into it.

 

Olive tree's are a good source of oil.

 

Cut them down my tree's and I will devote a few hours every night to stamping out tundra, I think I can pack tiles faster than you can transmute them, all though we can put our persistence to the test.

 

You people had zero consideration for what others wanted, you just want things the way you want it, why should anyone bend to your view points?

 

Before the tree extinction event, there was plenty of places around the tundra to spawn stuff to slay, now its just a empty barren wasteland with the odd chicken roaming around.

 

 

 

Jake,

Thank you for your threat, I've had to make some extra room on Jake's Threats Shelf to fit it.

On the matter of olive trees, as you have not provided an alternative agreement, I will pass your opinion to interested parties and will not be looking for further compromise.

On the matter of steppe, how should I interpret your opinion? Are you skeptical about feasibility of the vote, or are you unwilling to accept the consensus reached through it?

 

15 hours ago, armyskin said:

Tundra is ugly. The entire project is founded on an objective pretense.

 

 

To make it clear: yes. Any aesthetic argument is by definition opinionated. However project was never intended to please everyone. Only those interested. It was only recently, that there appeared conflicting opinions.

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The statement that I will pack the tundra is my only option to keep you away from my deed, I do not want to get in a back and forth war replanting my perimeter, so if you launch a nuke I will launch all my nukes.

 

Make Exo Great Again!

 

At this point I don't care what you do with that area any more, just stay away from making it a wasteland at my deed.

 

 

Edited by JakeRivers

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