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Zuzanazan

Evicted from Serendipity Bay area

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Sorry Retro, but I gotta call BS.  We have seen cases on these boards of "off-deed griefing" that have been enforced by staff in the past.  Take for example the time Enki threatened to ban Gumbo for even walking into local of whoever it was he had a beef with 2 years ago.  Couple guys got territorial over some off-deed mines or something and the staff got involved.

 

Whether or not Yaga didn't abuse his power as a staff member, we the players expect and demand that staff members do not engage in intimidation tactics to scare away what few new players are trickling into a dying game.  

 

Seriously, what does it take?  "Hey, don't put a village here or I'll get you banned"?  The writing is on the wall with his tone.  

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We don't tolerate griefing, never have, never will.

 

Your post there is a direct point of that, travelling long distances to sit in the local area of someone you're having an argument with to mine out some vein that has the exact same availability on your deed is a clear sign of doing something just to harass this person.

 

None of this is intimidation tactics, It was simply asking someone in the local area to be respectful of the neighbourhood, the request wasn't taken kindly, and the issue was dropped. 

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Honestly, if I had moved into an area, deeded (read paid for) land, and was met with this type of private message I'd be furious.

 

I had people move into my backyard, quite literally, and proceed to cut down oaks in my perim lining the road. I didn't send them messages talking about "my area". I gave them tools to help them get started. Their numbers swelled, causing me a lot of lag when they were all on. I found a way to work around it. I didn't tell them to quit inviting people into MY area, as it wasn't mine. I didn't deed it. It was public land.

 

See the difference?

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39 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

We don't tolerate griefing, never have, never will.

 

Your post there is a direct point of that, travelling long distances to sit in the local area of someone you're having an argument with to mine out some vein that has the exact same availability on your deed is a clear sign of doing something just to harass this person.

 

 

I would like to clarify the situation that I was involved with. It was done to prove a point and hopefully resolve an issue without staff involvement. Someone was going around the server attempting to build bridges in and around other peoples areas, including right in their perimeter, without their AOK. That person told the folks who objected that they did not own their perimeter and he could build his bridges where ever he pleased. I was not one of those people. I took it upon myself to go to an off deed mine near the culprit, and mine away. My point was to show that the veins too were off deed and not subject to any rules of ownership, by their very own words. Despite that, the people with a deed close by fenced me in the mine, not leaving me an exit (which is a ban-able offence). They then proceeded to put in a support call to get a GM there. Not sure who the genius was that came up with that plan or if they got banned, but I don't believe so. Anyway, I proved their hypocrisy and was willing to take my punishment for doing so. I hold no ill will towards the staff members that handled the situation.

 

This current situation is somewhat different and I don't feel it's right for me to take either side without plenty more information, that I highly doubt I would ever be privy to. I only hope the two parties can work it out together.

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Retro, wording is everything. It is the very staple with which we conduct ourselves.

 

What Yaga meant is heresy at this point, its what he said.  Words alone hold little emotion so simply reading the cut log, all that can be derived is pure intimidation through the use of knowledge.

 

Again, wording is everything.   That's what this thread is about.   You are feeding the masses by indulging into the tangents made by others.

 

 

Edited by Nomadikhan
Phone auto correct sucks
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I've read the PM log the OP posted thoroughly a few times and I cannot see any threat in there from Yaga.

The conversation was pushed into a context of intimidation by the OP:

* OP connected Yaga and his staff position, Yaga did not mention it and I'm really getting upset when one of the parties use a staff position of the the other party as an argument like here, what can be read: "You need to tolerate everything because you are staff". No, that is not true. Staff members mostly are the same players (and another argument from OP - paying customers) as we all are. This case has NOTHING to do with Yaga being staff or not. This is a dispute about how a certain area is currently working and it would be nice to be kept as is.

* OP called Yaga a mob boss (which I can all but laugh at it as I think everyone would who knows him).

 

I'm not clear about the event history that was leading to this conversation but I would be more than surprised if Yaga would start with this conversation upfront.

It is well within the recommendations to be kind with neighbours and it is a good start if you ask locals.

 

Just a side note: one of the main reasons I never applied to be a CA is that it is very common that in any dispute it is used as an abused argument by the other side.

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Well, while you are representative of staff, your words and actions have completely different meaning. For example, if you write your opinion on paper which has company logo on it, it has completely different impact, than the same opinion written on blank paper. It simply IS perceived differently, whether you want it, or not.

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2 hours ago, Jaz said:

I've read the PM log the OP posted thoroughly a few times and I cannot see any threat in there from Yaga.

The conversation was pushed into a context of intimidation by the OP:

* OP connected Yaga and his staff position, Yaga did not mention it and I'm really getting upset when one of the parties use a staff position of the the other party as an argument like here, what can be read: "You need to tolerate everything because you are staff". No, that is not true. Staff members mostly are the same players (and another argument from OP - paying customers) as we all are. This case has NOTHING to do with Yaga being staff or not. This is a dispute about how a certain area is currently working and it would be nice to be kept as is.

* OP called Yaga a mob boss (which I can all but laugh at it as I think everyone would who knows him).

 

I'm not clear about the event history that was leading to this conversation but I would be more than surprised if Yaga would start with this conversation upfront.

It is well within the recommendations to be kind with neighbours and it is a good start if you ask locals.

 

Just a side note: one of the main reasons I never applied to be a CA is that it is very common that in any dispute it is used as an abused argument by the other side.

 

You want to mess with me? Not a good idea!

^-- can you see how this may be perceived as threatening? If not you are blind.

Partial blindness may also explain how you distorted what I said, being uninviting to new players is unacceptable even for free players but a staff member sabotaging their own workplace is simply hilariously moronic.

Yagas way of laying claim to a whole peninsula as personal property is very mob-like.

 

Our previous interactions had been mostly positive but I noticed some slight rudeness from his part. No part of the personal conversation from that session has been omitted, what led up to it was me inviting a person in server chat to an abandoned dock several tiles away from Yagas deeds to work on a project to bring in and support new players, that anyone would have anything against this simply seemed completely impossible.

Treating your neighbors like five year olds who can't have sleepovers is incredibly rude and disrespectful.

 

If you worked for me and treated our customers with disrespect you would lose your position faster than you could kiss it good bye.

 

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3 minutes ago, Zuzanazan said:

You want to mess with me? Not a good idea!

^-- can you see how this may be perceived as threatening? If not you are blind.

 

17 hours ago, Zuzanazan said:

21:07:22] <Yaga> What is your point, by the way? Want to mess with the local population? Not a good start
[21:07:36] <Zuzanazan> being inviting to new players is extremely important
[21:07:46] <Zuzanazan> this is like you are messing with me
[21:07:54] <Yaga> What?
[21:08:53] <Zuzanazan> why are you afraid?
[21:09:40] <Yaga> I am not afraid, but you should respect that our alliance who lives in this area has certain rules and procedures

From that chat log, you are kinda the one threatening the other...

 

Once upon a time we had a freedom rule of conduct... not black and white rules but guidelines, like talk to people in your local, don't settle right next to them, don't be a jerk.... yadda yadda yadda... you got the drill.

 

Yaga and his alliance have deeds all over the place, they built the infrastructures, all those roads, bridges, tunnels you see around and as such can be worried about anyone new coming to mess things up... which kinda go back to the first point.

 

Being friendly is one thing, accepting all sort of ###### is not. Yaga's wording might have been bad, but you immediatly jumped the gun and went to the forum to spill more drama like oil on the fire.

 

9 minutes ago, Zuzanazan said:

Treating your neighbors like five year olds who can't have sleepovers is incredibly rude and disrespectful.

 

If you worked for me and treated our customers with disrespect you would lose your position faster than you could kiss it good bye.

 

Treating volunteers who spend a lot of time to take care of abusive players is incredibly rude and disrespectful as well... Because yes, those guys, all of them, who keep the game working and answers all your newbie questions are not paid... and with the amount of ###### people like you are pulling, we are only loosing more and more of the good ones... and in all honestly you can quite easilly understand that the staff (and a lot of others players) are tired of that crap.

 

And you know what that does... just push all that 'elitism' crap you are mentionning in your first post. At this point we have more newbie centers than actual new players in the game. We have more distrust toward new players than will to help them because of the incoming drama that usually follow.

 

And tbh, nothing in that chat log or further explanation says you are being 'evicted' ... but heck, if you don't like the local mob boss, you can always settle somewhere else.

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2 hours ago, rixk said:

Well, while you are representative of staff, your words and actions have completely different meaning. For example, if you write your opinion on paper which has company logo on it, it has completely different impact, than the same opinion written on blank paper. It simply IS perceived differently, whether you want it, or not.

An ingame chat between two players is definitely the white paper. The PM which starts with "CM responding" is the company logo letter.

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14 minutes ago, Odynn said:

From that chat log, you are kinda the one threatening the other...

 

Riiiiight... Since it seems you may genuinely not understand, the "afraid" part was asking why he is fearing new players.

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Zuzana you are in the right.. I wouldn't worry about it, play how you want invite who you want... The players in this game are main culprits of the reason why so many newer players have left and felt unwelcome. Freedom drama over unseeded land control is poison in this game and GMs don't know how to handle it and often times would rather remove the sand from the sandbox vs stick to Rolfs old ways of handling things.  Good luck over there and don't get discouraged.

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Hey guys!

 

I must admit I'm surprised by this. Our alliance has been extremely lucky with neighbours during the last years. We have slowly managed to build a very nice area on the principles of nature, beauty, and respect. Knowing Yaga for a loooong time, I must back him for several reasons:

  1. He cleary was not acting as a CM in that moment, but as another fellow player.
  2. He was talking politely about how we like to do things. You just arrived and we were starting to know each other.
  3. He didn't force you at all. He was trying to talk to you and explain how difficult has been for us when bad players reached the peninsula in the past.
  4. Deed it or lose it, of course. But aren't we allowed to make suggestions, or try to explain our past difficulties, or try to convince you that your idea might not be the best idea for all of us (including you?).

I know he has done for you more than many players do for anyone here. And he has been doing that since I started playing (which was a looooong time ago). I simply cannot understand the reason behind you taking his words as an insult. Maybe because he's CM? This drama is pointless and unfair to one of the most helpful players in Wurm history. I can't care less about you being or not in the peninsula. But I know Yaga was quite happy to meet you. It's really a shame that you are trying to destroy his reputation now.

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11 minutes ago, Glomby said:

[...]This drama is pointless and unfair to one of the most helpful players in Wurm history. I can't care less about you being or not in the peninsula. But I know Yaga was quite happy to meet you. It's really a shame that you are trying to destroy his reputation now.

Yes... too bad it has turned this way. Yaga was happily announcing new neighbours just a few days ago...

 

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Well this situation is a shame. Seems to me that the OP was a bit overly sensitive and took comments from Yaga the wrong way. I can understand him being concerned about new players moving into the area since it is obvious that he cares a lot about it from just viewing all the updates he does to the map he created of that area. Over the years a nice alliance seems to have been built up specific to that area as well, no doubt from the positive influence Yaga has effected. Not that I personally know much about it but following these forums for years does give one a fairly accurate insight into another's character and certain specific motivations.

 

Some good advice by others as well in that if you are the *new* player to an area and conflicts quickly arise, just move on to somewhere else where you won't be bothered by them. Plenty of areas available on Deliverance and if the OP wants a lot of contact with newer players that more remote area is not the best choice anyway. Sure, no one can tell others where to settle on free land and there is no obligation to ask anyone's permission to do so. If you are not the type that can just ignore others and do your own thing, then getting upset and making a post about the situation seems to plainly suggest that you will be better off elsewhere.

 

I really see no "Eviction" here as the post title would suggest, other than perhaps a self inflicted one. The game really provides too much enjoyment rather than wasting any time in conflicts with others.

 

=Ayes=

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Sorry Zuzanazan, but you're just being plain rude at this point. I've known Yaga for years, he's probably the last person on the server who is going to "demand" and "force" anyone to do anything.

 

Just the other week, before you both settled in the area, he was telling me how excited he was to have some new neighbours around, as myself and the other alliance members have been away for a bit. He showed you a great place to settle, helped you out with supplies. Did you forget about all that?

 

Later that week I jumped online and watched a bit while he was giving you a tour of the area, showing you the various sights we have built up over the years, answering both of your questions. He made sure to tell me out-of-game when you founded your deed too, because he was glad to have people around that seemed friendly. I guess all that support and effort was just imaginary, eh?

 

As Odynn said, we've built a lot up over the years in that area, not just our deeds - but infrastructure, roads, off-deed shelters, mines, meditation tiles etc. And yes, we've had people  who've come over to the area and caused a mess, whether it's accidental, or intended griefing. His message to you was simply a warning about the risks of unknown players, and a request to be respectful of what others have created there. No demands, no threats, no mentioning of his staff status in the slightest.

 

Yes, at the end of the day, you can do whatever you like on undeeded land. And at the same time, I think it's entirely fair that those who have spent years building up an area are can respectfully ask, as Yaga did, that you and your friends are considerate of that when you're playing.

 

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3 hours ago, Jaz said:

An ingame chat between two players is definitely the white paper. The PM which starts with "CM responding" is the company logo letter.

If that has to be always explicitly repeated, then it probably isn't that white paper. ;) You can't choose, that this moment I am staff member, the next moment I am not. Should've always been so, that there are player toons and there are GM toons(in game and on forums).

 

Anyway. From my experience with Yaga, I can also say, that he is a nice and calm guy. Wording could've been better, but in the end as much as OP has right to settle where he likes, Yaga has also right to warn to not cause any trouble.

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Respectfully asking for the area to be kept in a shape the locals like it in is one thing... Telling a player they cannot or should not invite anyone to their deed until hand picked by an alliance she is not even a part of is another. Are some of you so blind to see wurm has been played in this way for such a long time it is why there has always been conflicts on freedom. People feel entitled and that isn't right.   

 

Perhaps yaga was only looking out for the alliance he is in and perhaps his wording could have been better but the key principle here is not that his wording was slightly bad its the simple fact of him saying don't invite anyone without our alliances approval like he and the alliance own the lay of the land and this newcomer is only renting space. 

 

 

All of when players need to start to learn to take a step backwards and look at what they are doing and saying. It truly is what's ruining the game and often times pushes potential long term players away because of just not wanting to deal with it.  Some people talk about how great of a community when is when the reality of it is more people are each others throats and more drama then personal family drama. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, MaurizioAM said:

they cannot or should not invite anyone to their deed

 

Please show the fairness to read my explaining post again (see above), before repeating things that are not true. This was NOT about inviting players to their deed! (OP was not a villager of any deed nor had a deed of their own.)

 

 

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Wow, seriously? Yaga is one of the nicest guys in the game, and I would have quit playing years ago if it wasn't for his kindness and help. If you felt like he was threatening you or trying to tell you what you could or could not do with your deed, you should have settled it in a PM conversation WITH HIM. If that didn't work out to your satisfaction, you could have taken it up with a developer. I've had miscommunications like these with people (yes, even Yaga) over my years of playing Wurm, and I've resolved them to my satisfaction via PM. Putting someone on blast in a forum NEVER ends well. (And no, that's not a threat--it's an observation based on years of seeing forum drama like this.)

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I do not live on that server nor do I know the people involved.  I know that people who have proven to play the game for along time, invested something to be here.  In many cases they formed strong relationships with other players and built up a reputation and live in a community.  It is good to keep those kind of players around as they have already shown that they are willing to stay in the game for the long haul.  Yes, new players are important too, but sometimes a new addition could potentially drive the people who have been playing for a long time already, away.  That would also not be beneficial to the game.

 

On the other hand, noobies have a tendency to do all kinds of silly stuff without really understanding the repercussions of what they do.  For example:  Oh, here is a mine, let's see if we can mine a big hole to get a water source! Or: Trees!!! I want a house! Let's chop down all the trees!  Or:  I want a straight line to spawn so I will just drop dirt on this clay bank and raise it to above water - the person who owns the deed behind it will be happy despite not being able to leave their docks, won't they?  These things are not necessarily due to an evil intent, just being a unaware of what the repercussions may be.  Wurm relies on more established players to help and guide newer players, I guess it is up to the newer players to either accept this or make a drama on forums.

 

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14 hours ago, Odynn said:

[21:09:40] <Yaga> I am not afraid, but you should respect that our alliance who lives in this area has certain rules and procedures

 

12 hours ago, Glomby said:

Deed it or lose it, of course. But aren't we allowed to make suggestions, or try to explain our past difficulties, or try to convince you that your idea might not be the best idea for all of us (including you?).

Why are you guys constantly trying to force players not in your alliance to conform to your rules and procedures? Like asking them to not damage roads etc is fine

 

also Yaga's "you're ungrateful" bit sounded somewhat entitled

"oh i deemed you with a pm, why aren't you prostrating yourself before me in thanks"

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I side with Yaga but the way he states it, was kinda rude

[21:02:43] <Yaga> Better not invite random, unknown people to our area 

Maybe english isnt his first language but a better way to say it could be

"please ask before you invite people to your deed because our alliance has rules"

He didnt do anything to abuse power though. Dumb Post.

 

PS. I laughed out loud at all of this, pretty funny drama. We needed something new, was getting boring on the forums with no drama. 10/10

Edited by Beastwolf
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