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Tallios

Better Markets and eventually deeds without coin upkeep.

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Spoiler: This suggestion is to ultimately do away with deed upkeep as money upkeep.

I personally recommend that a deed be limited by upkeep via materials consumed for maintenance, fence borders for deeds, and have wurm move away from direct monetary payments.

 

3 types of NPC merchants in every starter town.

 

I know a lot of people would whine and ###### about this system, but virtually everyone wants some sort of coherent market system.  I strongly recommend this because it's simple, in-depth, allows players to actually be traders or even specialize in certain trades, and provides a pathway to support yourself without having to learn everything.  I currently do not support private versions of these as it would cause to much headache.

 

Each starter town merchants MUST be separate,  A map wide or game wide connected merchant system would cause more damage and hurt the game in the long run.

 

New action: Seal Crate

Activate hammer/mallet  and right click crate to be sealed.  Nails are consumed as necessary from inventory.

 

Crates of singular items can be sealed with a small or large nails respectively.  (Yes Wurm, be specific,)  The crates will then read as a "Large/small sealed crate of X quality Items". 

  • Large Crate merchants:
    • Only purchases must be sealed large crate of singular items.
    • Items in crates sold to vendor must be above 30 quality
    • Items in crates sold from vendor will be 30 only quality. 
    • Crates sold to or from a cart or wagon.
    • Will purchase crates of items at "market price" minus 20% as the taxes/merchants cut, whatever.
    • Will sell crates of items at "market price" plus 20% as the taxes/merchant cut, whatever.
    • Sales and Purchases are 1 at a time.

 

  • Small Crate merchants:
    • Only purchases must be sealed small crate of singular items.
    • Items in crates sold to vendor must be above 30 quality
    • Items in crates sold from vendor will be 30 only quality. 
    • Crates sold to or from a cart or wagon.
    • Will purchase crates of items at "market price" minus 35% as the taxes/merchants cut, whatever.
    • Will sell crates of items at "market price" plus 35% as the taxes/merchant cut, whatever.
    • Sales and Purchases are 1 at a time.

 

  • Basic Merchant:
    • Purchases must be of singular items.
    • Items sold to vendor must be above 30 quality
    • Items sold from vendor will be 30 only quality. 
    • Items sold to or from a player inventory.
    • Will purchase items at "market price" minus 50% as the taxes/merchants cut, whatever.
    • Will sell items at "market price" plus 50% as the taxes/merchant cut, whatever.
    • Sales and Purchases are 1 at a time.

 

Edit 1: The market price of items on the merchant would need to be dynamic, so that as the merchant gains inventory the price lowers.  Inversely if his inventory dwindles on a particular item, the price would increase respective of amount on hand.

Edited by Tallios

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-1

Why do you want to introduce npc's at every starter down pumping out money. If you pump money into the game you need to take it out aswell. But you actually want to increase the "pumping it part" and reduce the "pumping out part"

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Does this mean they would only sell 30ql items, regardless of the QL that was sold to them? I don’t see how this would have any benefit to the fame or economy. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. 

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43 minutes ago, Theodein said:

-1

Why do you want to introduce npc's at every starter down pumping out money. If you pump money into the game you need to take it out aswell. But you actually want to increase the "pumping it part" and reduce the "pumping out part"

 

first off it would not "Pump out money"  it would have a dynamic price based on inventory.  Hence the use of the term market price.  additionally if the market price for 1 large crate of ribbons is say 1000 irons or 10 copper.  1000 - 20% would mean the merchant would purchase them for 800 iron and sell them for 1200 irons.  When the inventory of the merchant increases the price the merchant would buy these items for would of course lower, and when the merchant's inventory decreases the price will climb.  Money would ultimately be removed from this type of system.

 

17 minutes ago, Xor said:

Does this mean they would only sell 30ql items, regardless of the QL that was sold to them? I don’t see how this would have any benefit to the fame or economy. Maybe I’m misunderstanding. 

 

Yes.  This provides a standard for work, because the quality of an item can radically change the price.  I am attempting to establish a baseline for the economy and also preserve the work that any skilled craftsman could do.  This turns the merchant into a sort of specialized BSB that could buy and sell items without the need of 2 people actually having to be in the same place and the same time.

 

game/economy benefits:

  1. ability to find common items in a common place
  2. ability for a seller to conduct trade without direct presence of a player purchaser
  3. ability for a buyer to conduct trade without direct presence of a player seller
  4. ability to buy and sell in bulk.
  5. avoids the totally broken trader system.
  6. helps to provide income to the developer with revenue generated by people whom conduct trade.
  7. has a local market pricing
  8. allows people to become traders
  9. adds in game depth and focus in starter cities.
  10. is not required to play.
  11. allows players to specialize in a specific craft and easily obtain other materials.

These are just the immediate benefits that I can list off the top of my head.

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Great WU economy... something... but not WO material.

 

Current deeding system seems fine, until a bunch of people stand behind several groups stating what they do and do not like in it.

 

Farming materials to maintain your place is too easy for groups to keep a place together and expand.

Which only gets crazier when you get to the part of managing the terrain which groups could claim and rule as they see fit.

 

Current system limits the land you could claim to some degree.

 

-1

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1 minute ago, Finnn said:

Great WU economy... something... but not WO material.

 

Current deeding system seems fine, until a bunch of people stand behind several groups stating what they do and do not like in it.

 

Farming materials to maintain your place is too easy for groups to keep a place together and expand.

Which only gets crazier when you get to the part of managing the terrain which groups could claim and rule as they see fit.

 

Current system limits the land you could claim to some degree.

 

-1

 

I believe that it would actually work rather well, if you include a dynamic material cost, to building, structures and walls to maintain these items. 

The larger it is, the more materials it takes.  The further from town center, the longer it takes for NPC's to get to said item to repair it. The larger and more grand you build a place, the more materials it will require.

 

Even based on the current decay system, repairing of walls would take a rather long time for large deeds.  Increasing the costs by distance and complexity would balance it out, while giving you the opportunity to feel more like a lord of a manor, rather than a peasant with a fancy shack.

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What stops me from deeding the whole server than?

90-100skill, ql and woa casts... who's going to limit my mighty skills from corrupting the land and claiming it all under some dumb name?

 

Your scaling is going to force players to quit/eventually/

Even if that do drive some randoms to play together... names will vary, and some are going to come and go as nobody's likes slave work.

 

Reminding you that deeds have 0 decay for a reason, same for decorations for some time now.

 

I've thought of a 'similar' idea for npc/auction that is almost doesn't harm the current market, but one of the things which the game or devs seem to stand behind is social interaction, for the most part... and less npcs and automation(trolls do not place market pictures).

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So you’re sort of suggesting the crown gets a cut from players trading items? If this is headed in that direction at all I am gonna dig out the biggest, baddest Protunia -1 I can find. 

 

The trader system is trash, sure, but you’re suggesting something that I don’t think would ever get used because people can trade on their own just fine without a merchant. Unless you’re suggesting we be forced to use this instead of open trading, and to that I’ll ask you to see above about the big Protinia -1 again lol

 

Also, the term skilled craftsman or skilled in any trade is never referring to QL 30 anything. . That’s newbie gear that almost any crafter would give away to someone in need. And if they’re not the charitable type, they’d IMP it higher to actually create value before sale. 

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I honestly don't get this.  You eliminate deed revenue (Code club doesn't like giving up revenue).  You give an easy way to sell goods for those that don't want to sell to other players, which makes paying for account subscriptions easier, making the remaining revenue decrease.  Wurm dies instantly, except for the existing WU servers already purchased.  Even then, I'm sure steam will shut them down.

 

I don't want upkeep of deeds to require sacrificing a bunch of materials.  Right now, hardly anything decays, so deeds are pretty good.  I just pay my 1s for each and don't have to worry about anything else.

Edited by Wurmhole
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-1 none of this seems necessary

 

However I'm all for removing prem subscription and increasing deed costs, but that's a thread of it's own.

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This suggestion needs some work I think. I think upkeep is needed still.

 

The ramifications would ultimately destroy the market and free trade as we know it, I would simply dig dirt all day for money and always have a buyer, where as right now I'm sitting on like 100k dirt and don't. Having to much of something no one is buying but a npc always pays top price for is just broken. 

 

Economy is what I do best, Wurm is a hard world and I think it should remain so.

 

 

 

To add upon the sealed crate idea, I think it would be nice if Wagoneers did a cross server trade system or took items to a hub (spawn town maybe) where items could be traded remotely without leaving your local server. People could use a new item or a wagoner container that could be built on deed to order items this way. I would make this super slow, sailing would still be faster but a option for those lazy people like me.

Edited by Niki

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I would like it if you could use materials to help offset some of the cost of deed maintenance while you are actively playing and then use silver to keep your deed up while you are not playing so actively.

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This sounds like the way the so called leader of Canada does things .

His version is the economy will fix itself..

 

Things may not be perfect in Wurm , but players who work hard and grind there skill or the ones who like to wheel and deal can do just fine .

Leave it the way it is...

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6 hours ago, Niki said:

This suggestion needs some work I think. I think upkeep is needed still.

 

 

Just to answer your bit real fast, your 100k dirt would never sell to all the merchants.  Each time you would sell a crate the merchant price would drop.  A dynamic or elastic pricing that changes, so you’d sell your 3k dirt and the merchant.  First crate would be 500 iron, second would be 480 iron, then 460, 440 and so on.  At some point the merchant would pay virtually nothing for your dirt or not accept it.

 

its not a bottomless hole for money.  Then having a tax charged on it would give money to the devs as people who would want to buy would need coin to do so.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Tallios said:

 

Just to answer your bit real fast, your 100k dirt would never sell to all the merchants.  Each time you would sell a crate the merchant price would drop.  A dynamic or elastic pricing that changes, so you’d sell your 3k dirt and the merchant.  First crate would be 500 iron, second would be 480 iron, then 460, 440 and so on.  At some point the merchant would pay virtually nothing for your dirt or not accept it.

 

its not a bottomless hole for money.  Then having a tax charged on it would give money to the devs as people who would want to buy would need coin to do so.

 

 

So instead of a free market for players to trade with each other and build their skills, the game would instead be based on getting to 30ql items and revolve around selling them for next to nothing (because the competition on the merchant would easily bring it to the bottom) and this is somehow supposed to be better for the economy, or the dev's income? I dont see how this could be successful or better in any fathomable way.

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1 hour ago, Xor said:

So instead of a free market for players to trade with each other and build their skills, the game would instead be based on getting to 30ql items and revolve around selling them for next to nothing (because the competition on the merchant would easily bring it to the bottom) and this is somehow supposed to be better for the economy, or the dev's income? I dont see how this could be successful or better in any fathomable way.

 

No, it is a dynamic point at which low quality items can be bought and sold, which would help to facilitate and establish a fluid point of transaction.    The economy would not revolve around 30 quality items.  The ability to obtain basic items would become easier by establishing points where they could be bought and sold accordingly.

 

Additionally 30 quality is by the dev's own design "decent", and is out of the range of free toons, but not high as to where it would compare to what a craftsman could do.

 

Codeclub or the Dev's getting a 20% fee on both sides of a sales transaction which has to happen in coins which can only be purchased through the website would increase income even if everyone bought strictly in the larges bulk containers. 

 

Lastly, the market would still be "Free" as you would be fully able to obtain your materials via private transaction, private merchant or purchasing from the NPC merchants.  This allows more actions to accomplish the same thing, and can help raise funds for the game itself.

 

If you cannot understand these things, I recommend you take an economics course.

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9 hours ago, Lianya said:

I would like it if you could use materials to help offset some of the cost of deed maintenance while you are actively playing and then use silver to keep your deed up while you are not playing so actively.

 

Now this is an interesting idea, and one that fits well enough with how the game plays rather than some NPCs buying and selling crates of goods.

It could be similar to how you can automatically keep lamps within a 24 tiles perimeter around your deed fueled and lit by having a huge oil barrel filled with oil and at least 1 spirit templar active.

 

You could have some dedicated bulk bin in which you can store the bulk resources and see that consumed over time (either magically or by templar) to reduce or possibly even fully mitigate upkeep while resources last.

Preferably it would require no spirit templar for such an addition, but even if it did it could help a good amount in monthly upkeep with deeds that exceed 1s/month by far, depending on how fast the resources are burned up, and how much of a reduction in monthly upkeep it would give while enough materials are present.

What kind of materials, what else but deed size affects the daily/monthly consumption, how much effect on the deed upkeep, and other details would probably need consideration to make it worthwhile but not too powerful if that's a concern.

(For example the whole refueling through huge oil barrels and templars was a great attempt, but before the amount of olives per tree was increased it was simply not worth it and far from everyone has a templar; 1s/month just to refuel some offdeed lamps alone is expensive as well.)

 

This could allow for a lower/no upkeep during active playing, reduce the stress of trying to find someone willing to buy stuff from you so you can keep your deed running while still allowing you to do so if you do have a good market presence (or want coin for premium time, buying items from others, etc.), and in effect have a game mechanism in play that could take some pressure off the whole declining economy and the fear, doubt and uncertainty it can cause in some.

"The economy is dead!" is much less daunting to deal with when deed upkeep alternatives exist. This is also visible with the implementation of rare coins through various kinds of actions.

 

+1

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7 hours ago, Tallios said:

 

No, it is a dynamic point at which low quality items can be bought and sold, which would help to facilitate and establish a fluid point of transaction.    The economy would not revolve around 30 quality items.  The ability to obtain basic items would become easier by establishing points where they could be bought and sold accordingly.

 

Additionally 30 quality is by the dev's own design "decent", and is out of the range of free toons, but not high as to where it would compare to what a craftsman could do.

 

Codeclub or the Dev's getting a 20% fee on both sides of a sales transaction which has to happen in coins which can only be purchased through the website would increase income even if everyone bought strictly in the larges bulk containers. 

 

Lastly, the market would still be "Free" as you would be fully able to obtain your materials via private transaction, private merchant or purchasing from the NPC merchants.  This allows more actions to accomplish the same thing, and can help raise funds for the game itself.

 

If you cannot understand these things, I recommend you take an economics course.

I misunderstood you, and thought you were suggesting all trade would be through these merchants. 

 

If if they’re only for 30ql items, and there are no “taxes” on any other trade in the game between players than I can get behind this. (As long as other trade is not changed, IE having our own merchant contracts, etc) I could care less what happens to traders though. 

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14 hours ago, Raamkozijn said:

 

Now this is an interesting idea, and one that fits well enough with how the game plays rather than some NPCs buying and selling crates of goods.

It could be similar to how you can automatically keep lamps within a 24 tiles perimeter around your deed fueled and lit by having a huge oil barrel filled with oil and at least 1 spirit templar active.

 

You could have some dedicated bulk bin in which you can store the bulk resources and see that consumed over time (either magically or by templar) to reduce or possibly even fully mitigate upkeep while resources last.

Preferably it would require no spirit templar for such an addition, but even if it did it could help a good amount in monthly upkeep with deeds that exceed 1s/month by far, depending on how fast the resources are burned up, and how much of a reduction in monthly upkeep it would give while enough materials are present.

What kind of materials, what else but deed size affects the daily/monthly consumption, how much effect on the deed upkeep, and other details would probably need consideration to make it worthwhile but not too powerful if that's a concern.

(For example the whole refueling through huge oil barrels and templars was a great attempt, but before the amount of olives per tree was increased it was simply not worth it and far from everyone has a templar; 1s/month just to refuel some offdeed lamps alone is expensive as well.)

 

This could allow for a lower/no upkeep during active playing, reduce the stress of trying to find someone willing to buy stuff from you so you can keep your deed running while still allowing you to do so if you do have a good market presence (or want coin for premium time, buying items from others, etc.), and in effect have a game mechanism in play that could take some pressure off the whole declining economy and the fear, doubt and uncertainty it can cause in some.

"The economy is dead!" is much less daunting to deal with when deed upkeep alternatives exist. This is also visible with the implementation of rare coins through various kinds of actions.

 

+1

 

I would say it would require at least two categories of maintenance items: building materials and fodder. Further, the amount of either needed can scale up with the number of walls/roof tiles or animals on a deed so that larger amounts are needed to off set the same percentage of upkeep as smaller deeds. Also, there could be a limit that prevents you from offsetting your upkeep to less than 50 coppers a month. I suggest 50 coppers because the minimum deed upkeep is somewhere around 1 silver a month.

 

Base building materials such as wood, rock shards, and lumps of clay could be stored and represent maintaining existing structures. Likewise the fodder such as grass or meat could represent maintaining the animals. For the larger deeds I can see multiple players pitching in to the maintenance bin to keep it going and for smaller deeds there is still some incentive to use the system.

 

In addition to relieving some of the stress of affording upkeep, it can free up silver for other expenses like items, enchants, etc.

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