Wurmhole

Split off PvE from PvP completely.

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I am far from the oldest person to play this game.  Maybe been around for half the life of Wurm now.  But over those years, I've noticed so much conflict between what works for PvP and what works for PvE.  I really think the game would benefit from a complete split.  No more connections between PvE and PvP servers.  Now that Epic has been given a chance to migrate to Freedom, we can all pretty much choose where we want to be with our current characters.  Give everyone a grace period to make the decision and move to their Pv? of choice, then rip out all the network cables between PvE and PvP servers for good.

 

Allow a single subscription to create both a PvE and a PvP character, but never a character that moves between.

 

Split the forums (pretty much like the Epic section now).  Forum accounts can subscribe to PvE, PvP or both, giving people a chance to better filter out the stuff that doesn't matter to them.  I've probably Fd up a ton of Epic auctions by bidding on something that was listed as a new post on the right side of forums main page, even though I have the epic section hidden.

 

In DevBlog posts, or Retro's weekly news, there is always a big controversy over every PvP change and quite a few PvE changes, but if it were separated, it would be so much easier to filter through the things that mattered to the right player base.

 

People that PvP and PvE are often very different game players and trying to lump the game mechanics into one big pool is never going to work effectively.  One camp is very much "there is honor among thieves" and the other is "there is nothing honorable about being a thief".  How can you have two different philosophies and ever expect to have an agreeable outcome?

 

I may not ever PvP myself, but I understand how others find it much more entertaining and meaningful, so I'm not bashing PvP, just suggesting that PvP and PvE are never going to be compatible play styles.  I see it all the time in games that do combine it.  In guilds or alliances that contain both types of players, there is always heated conflict.  Rarely do PvP and PvE players see eye to eye, but it does happen.  I do have a few friends that do both and are great people, but I'm writing this for the majority of PvP and PvE interactions.

 

I see how PvE, being the stronger player base right now is having a highly detrimental effect on the PvP experience.  It feels like we are slowly taking over the future development of the game.  Good for me and most of my fellow PvE players, but bad for the PvP crowd.  Build that border wall and allow a full code split, to give devs the freedom to make PvP more exciting.

 

I am a huge fan of conflict elimination as a way to improve overall player experience and think this would go a long way towards that goal.

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-1

 

Too much effort, and even more complicated to resolve than the Epic skill transfer.

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To much effort? Remove Choas and boom you have separate pve and pvp clusters. Seems pretty simple to me. 

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-1

What people want changes over time, making one final decision would limit gameplay with a certain character forever, even if you decide you want to switch to pve or pvp. More choices are better, and the devs do a pretty good job of not allowing certain changes onto Chaos that could upset the pvp balance.

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So you want pre-transfer epic? Can't say that was the most populated server.

 

You'd be taking away stuff from both sides of the game, and offering nothing except "maybe" updates that are a bit more free since they don't have to worry about the other side, but you already have epic for that, so you're just taking away something for nothing.

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-1 for reasons stated below. This is how it USED to be back in the days of Freedom consisting of only current-day Independence and Chaos being known as Wild.

 

Plain and simply put, the PVP Community on Wild pushed for a merge that didn't require the use of portals and allowed the shipment of items across the border for a few reasons, most specifically:

1. Warfare is expensive, and the economy of freedom has and will always be well above that of what Chaos itself can offer because obviously, it's split into kingdoms that don't trade, and freedom consists of 7 servers with many more players than that of Chaos. (There is more money on Freedom)

2. Loot doesn't hold much value if there's no one skilled around to make good stuff. But when people buy stuff from freedom and take it over, then lose it via PvP, the Chaos economy is stimulated in a sense. The same can obviously happen in reverse, it's just usually less common.

3. Character accounts receive a benefit in value because of this as well. If you have a highly skilled fighter that just so happens to be on freedom, with this change your character is nearly worthless. But if you can train all skills then bring them inter-cluster having a few 90's becomes much more useful.

Edited by whereami

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Chaos probably won't survive (any better than epic at least) without PvE side.. PvE side will survive perfectly fine.

 

And THAT in a sense is a problem. Money flows basically only in one direction, basically PvE is subsidizing Chaos. There is actually nothing, that PvE side has to offer, which would be imported to Chaos(except characters, but that money doesn't go into economy). Some things, which have value on Chaos, stuff from uniques etc, those items Chaos players come and take for free.

 

PvE side don't have to support war effort on Chaos. The fact, that warfare is expensive and Chaos wouldn't make it without selling stuff to Freedom, is simply poor design. Trade should go two ways.

 

 

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this is why i prefer WU, we can designate areas that are PVP, and for the most part, there is no "griefing"

 

one reason why i dont play the online version because of the pvp and "griefing issue..

 

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I’m about to remember when ya’ll so be patient. 

 

2005ish I started playing and at that time beta was just winding down because everyone was prepping for Gold 1. I remember walking for 2 hours with Wintersolstice to West Haven from Newtown. Before boats and horses this was the biggest time consumer next to grinding skills. We stopped along the way at Fathertimes deed which I can’t recall the name of his town which the town had just been under siege by a group of Black Lighters the night before I started playing. After getting a steak and some water we continued on through trees in which I never thought would end until we came out in front of the white light. This was similar to me like the scene in Star Wars where Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker look overtop Mos Eisley, it was epic. After looking at the building that had been destroyed by Black Lighters and dodging 10 bears and a wolf we continued through the woods next to the ocean. Back then “bear sharks” were terrifying for a person to solo unless you were a baller like Winter. A mountain climb and a few rags later we were at West Haven. At this point the coolest thing I had seen in a video game was probably the city in GTA San Andreas, but seeing trenches an actually player made in real time along with walls and wooden houses was literally the most epic thing I’ve seen and nothing has topped that wow factor since. Fast forward to June 2006 and Gold 1 released with a home server and Wild server. After a short break from Wurm due to not having a PC i was introduced to more of the game. Beowulf and Lokedott who lived at the base of the Mountain I think NW of Newtown invited me in to their village. I later met Mudbucket and Sye who told me stories of epic battles on Wild and how I should go join up. Sye showed me a great deal of the home server map along with Whosville which had a crazy fountain chain under water that lead you the whole way there. Ohh and a pretty cool sloped hill with “Whosville” in sand on the side. Then we made a long swim to Troll Island where I met the now famous Spider.. Along with his “you maek not kill my troll” speech I found myself at the mercy of an island filled with trolls and spiders. Trolls and spiders at this time were probably the most terrifying thing next to a dragon to encounter. Sye with two sickles killed 2 trolls by himself (herself? had a female character but I think he was a dude) and a spider later on. From that point on just from a 12 hour day of doing absolutely nothing but seeing landscape and meeting arachnids with terrible English skills I was absolutely hooked. Unfortunately I never got to see the first Wild server due to the server host or hard drives not having proper backups or something, so all was lost. 

 

Gold 2 launch happened and this time you had the option to be F2P on Wild so you could spawn there instantly. There I joined Whosville and experienced my first PvP ever and died to the hands of Shortass. I was a little discouraged so I stayed on deed with Haraldstern and Equinox who were quiet but pretty cool. Kissmyaxe was the first person to purchase my premium for me, basically Wurm was like that cool demo disk you would get in the old PlayStation magazines without premium time. To shorten this up I’ll use the example that got me hooked to Wurm for probably the rest of its exsistance. After playing for awhile I realized if I wanted to pvp I needed to surround myself with people who were good pvpers. I joined up with the most active pvp deed at the time on Chaos called Idependent Settlers. I was introduced to some of the finest pvpers and personalities in Wurm history such as Kingen, Peo, Robert, Tehheretic, Gavin, Toni, Rhapzody/Zoe and the list could go on. After learning the ropes from them and pen training for a month or so we took a trip to Nexus and another small deed that I can’t recall the name of. There we encountered the probably one of the scariest groups to me which consisted of Zeno, Shazaam, Atom, Fuel, Kabill, Eddy and Crimsonwolf. They were at that time to make people understand the TC of Wild, they never lost a fight or if they did it would cost your deed. When we rang the doorbell it was an instant fight with templars which were actually scary then and some of the best players at the time flying at your head. This is where I experienced my very first pvp shake, if you don’t know what this is it’s like having the cold chills while you have the flu but weirdly satisfying lol.. I was hooked like a crack addict, I couldn’t get enough of it. 

 

Really not sure what point I was trying to make there.. but I can tell you now if I started this not knowing what Wurm was on a PvE cluster it wouldn’t keep my interest. I’d rather go play Pubg or Fortnite. PvP needs to be advertised as the full Wurm experience in the future, I think the game would turn in a better direction. Most of you will disagree with me and think I’m crazy but meh, I’m just trying to help people see the buffet Wurm has to offer. 

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I saw this thread, hovered my hand above my "+" key as I clicked and then stopped.  I had a bit of a think.

 

If the clusters were separated :

 

1.  A lot of whales would disappear; this would hit the high paying playerbase hard because a lot of them really love their monopolies (see *palm*bags below)

2.  The majority of people fighting against PvP content on PvE (HotA, Lib, kingdom gear etc) would do a 180 and the content would appear so fast as to beggar belief (see *palm*bags below)

3.  Arrows and bows would become almost entirely worthless as archery is not much use on PvE (wait a moment, this isn't too good)

4.  In the event of player gods being removed (oh please, please, please get rid of them), there would be no access to Lib spells/easy runes (Wha?  This sounds even worse!)

5.  We'd be unlikely to see "damage undone" (i.e. the un-nerfing of things that have already been nerfed for PvP balance)

6.  We'd possibly see an increase in player attrition as a lot of PvPs main joining base are high level freedom accounts (But wurm already has player base problems...)

7.  Training fighting beyond 70 would become a nightmare (Maybe this isn't such a good idea)

8.  We could see a lot of "PvP blocked" suggestions implemented (Oh, this would be nice!)

 

The thing is, a lot of the good results could be achieved by the devs ignoring greedy *palm*bags; and spending a month changing wurm's underlying codebase (the epic/freedom split could be easily generalised).

 

The bad things, however, may hit wurm too hard.

 

So I am going to do something I never thought I would do...  Give this a -1.

 

I'm going to go sit in a corner and question my identity for a while.

Edited by Etherdrifter

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33 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

3.  Arrows and bows would become almost entirely worthless as archery is not much use on PvE (wait a moment, this isn't too good)

 

Arrows are great for trolls, even at archery 40. Longbows are an easy and safe way to kill them.

 

33 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

7.  Training fighting beyond 70 would become a nightmare (Maybe this isn't such a good idea)

 

This would be easy to fix if PvP and PvE were fully separated.

 

I can't answer your other points. :)

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+100  PvP personalities and PvE personalities do not blend.  PvE attitudes to playing are different and will never sit well on PvE servers.

Please, Devs, split them up - for good.

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4 minutes ago, Baloo said:

+100  PvP personalities and PvE personalities do not blend.  PvE attitudes to playing are different and will never sit well on PvE servers.

Please, Devs, split them up - for good.

 

lolololol

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I can see both pos and neg.   The only thing i  would suggest is a one way ticket for anyone returning from a long vacation off wurm. so they still have the option to  pick which to be either pvp or pve.

Edited by gorgian

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19 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

People that PvP and PvE are often very different game players and trying to lump the game mechanics into one big pool is never going to work effectively.

This is my main issue with the current system, so to split/separate completely the game mechanics for each would allow each side of the game to reach a higher potential for enjoyment. Doubt it will ever happen though as the re-coding of these two sides of the game would seem a monumental task.

 

19 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

Split the forums (pretty much like the Epic section now).  Forum accounts can subscribe to PvE, PvP or both, giving people a chance to better filter out the stuff that doesn't matter to them.

I wouldn't mind seeing this happen either. Why subject either side to reading posts that combine PvE/pvp when they might have no interest in opposing views on that basis. This is already available by choice but seems the pvp people just like interjecting into the PvE forum grounds with their pvp topics. *shrugs*

 

19 hours ago, Wurmhole said:

No more connections between PvE and PvP servers.

Basically this would mean cutting off Wild (Chaos) players from traveling by boat to the PvE servers. I see no need for this really. Let them travel where they wish. This has little negative impact on either side of the issue. Only thing I would suggest is not being able to import pvp items (hotas, gtowers, banners and such) from Chaos into the PvE servers for the exclusive profit of pvp'ers. This one sided profit potential creates some resentment within the PvE side of the game.

 

Anyway, now with the Public WU server choices available whatever happens one way or the other along these lines, they provide a way out into more distinct choices in these areas, so I am really not that much concerned. Why comment then? That is the question.....

 

=Ayes=

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5 hours ago, Baloo said:

+100  PvP personalities and PvE personalities do not blend.  PvE attitudes to playing are different and will never sit well on PvE servers.

Please, Devs, split them up - for good.

That's pretty rude seriously, I agree some of them are fairly immature and toxic but you can't label everyone that does some PvP like that. This makes freedom look like the toxic ones. 

 

I'm interested in Wurm as a whole, splits don't work, look at epic. Since epic players came over, I've noticed improvement on freedom/chaos.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Baloo said:

+100  PvP personalities and PvE personalities do not blend.  PvE attitudes to playing are different and will never sit well on PvE servers.

Please, Devs, split them up - for good.

 

Yeah I live on both Deli and Chaos and don't consider myself to be one or the other.

 

-1

 

Because most Chaos players live on Freedomer servers as well. Also a lot of what is sold on freedom ends up on Chaos. Bulk mats like dirt, bricks, mortar, support beams. Then you have to consider drake sets, tomes... the prices and value would simply not hold or the market would become flooded. Then if you cut Chaos off - how would kingdoms be able to fund themselves? Right now LoA is funded by selling PMK items or by the dragon that we killed on Xanadu. We don't yet have a farm so all of our crops are farmed on Freedom servers and sailed to the kingdom on Chaos. Splitting Chaos from Freedom would pretty much be killing LoA and perhaps other small PMK's that rely heavily on Freedom for funding and goods. Not to mention any future kingdoms that wish to start up that will go down the same route of slowly getting themselves setup while being supported from the PVE maps. Also Kingdoms that don't control Hota - the only way we have been able to get MMfor our weapons or armour is by attending rifts on the PVE servers or buying it from the freedom market.

 

By splitting Chaos from the other Freedom servers you'd be killing LoA most likely. I cannot speak for other kingdoms. You'd make it so that anyone wishing to make a new PMK would have a really hard time and lastly you'd crash the economy that has come to rely on Chaos more then people realise. Chaos is a money sink for the Freedom Clusters.

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2 hours ago, Iberis said:

 

Yeah I live on both Deli and Chaos and don't consider myself to be one or the other.

 

-1

 

Because most Chaos players live on Freedomer servers as well. Also a lot of what is sold on freedom ends up on Chaos. Bulk mats like dirt, bricks, mortar, support beams. Then you have to consider drake sets, tomes... the prices and value would simply not hold or the market would become flooded. Then if you cut Chaos off - how would kingdoms be able to fund themselves? Right now LoA is funded by selling PMK items or by the dragon that we killed on Xanadu. We don't yet have a farm so all of our crops are farmed on Freedom servers and sailed to the kingdom on Chaos. Splitting Chaos from Freedom would pretty much be killing LoA and perhaps other small PMK's that rely heavily on Freedom for funding and goods. Not to mention any future kingdoms that wish to start up that will go down the same route of slowly getting themselves setup while being supported from the PVE maps. Also Kingdoms that don't control Hota - the only way we have been able to get MMfor our weapons or armour is by attending rifts on the PVE servers or buying it from the freedom market.

 

By splitting Chaos from the other Freedom servers you'd be killing LoA most likely. I cannot speak for other kingdoms. You'd make it so that anyone wishing to make a new PMK would have a really hard time and lastly you'd crash the economy that has come to rely on Chaos more then people realise. Chaos is a money sink for the Freedom Clusters.

Oh, right.. you are doing a favor for freedomers, by taking all the drake sets/tomes etc to chaos, so the price would stay up on freedom. :D

Let's make one thing clear.. It is not average freedomers, who probably don't even know what kingdoms exist on Chaos, to keep the war effort going there. But right now every Chaos dweller thinks, that it is PvE side responsibility.. it is NOT.

 

Anyway.. my idea isnt to separate Chaos off completely. The "relationship" should be made mutually beneficial, not as it is now.. that PvE has the honor to supply Chaos with goods, money and unique bits.. and for all that they receive the middle finger.

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45 minutes ago, rixk said:

Oh, right.. you are doing a favor for freedomers, by taking all the drake sets/tomes etc to chaos, so the price would stay up on freedom. :D

Let's make one thing clear.. It is not average freedomers, who probably don't even know what kingdoms exist on Chaos, to keep the war effort going there. But right now every Chaos dweller thinks, that it is PvE side responsibility.. it is NOT.

 

Anyway.. my idea isnt to separate Chaos off completely. The "relationship" should be made mutually beneficial, not as it is now.. that PvE has the honor to supply Chaos with goods, money and unique bits.. and for all that they receive the middle finger.

 

Not really the middle finger, i'm a pve player that works on chaos, some kingdoms are entirely self sufficient but still buy from freedom even if they don't need too. Example, TC, they sell their HoTa statues because they don't need them (so people can decorate their deeds), yet buy 99ql veg etc from freedom, they buy bulk mats and a huge amount of rares/supremes, which puts more coin into pve than they take.

 

There's just this ill informed popular opinion that chaos players are greedy, vile monsters,yet i've spent a year with them, joining in on fights etc and know them to be generous and fair if you just show them the basic of courtesy

 

Personally i see a split as a negative outcome, so its a -1 from me   (not denying things need fixing but a complete split feels like amputating an arm because you have a rash on your wrist)

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I have played Wurm for a good amount of time now but have never had the 'pleasure' of playing the PVP form. I do however enjoy reading about the antics and adverts for Epic and Chaos..

 

Wurmhole and Holar have made many eloquent points for and against the suggestion- I especially enjoyed the history lesson from Holar My point is that if there are (and there clearly are) two distinct camps emerging in the thread then maybe, just maybe the developers have got the balance as good as it is going to get (and it is clearly not perfect for some) so maybe the status quo  should prevail?.

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-1 War drives the economy.

 

You won't have a market anymore if you stuck with PvE where nobody looses anything or nobody "needs" Supreme horseshoes and Rare moonweapons. PvE don't need those, but PvP needs every % extra chance.

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On 19/01/2018 at 4:27 PM, Mclavin said:

i live on chaos full time so i don't care, im here for the ride +1 why not

 

I live on Freedom full time but I think we should care.  The same code for both has long caused dramas and a tug of war over whose playstyle should be respected, with a fine balance for the devs.  Unfortunately the whole economy is built around a lot of trade and interaction now, so even though there is a tug of war, it also comes down to survival and earning capacity, as many people do still need to generate some in game silver to help pay for their game.  Someone else said that if we split it we should not allow the pvp stuff to be sold on pve because if only enriches the pvp folk...but what about all the imping and other services and resources that Freedom sell to pvp? This is a two way street here. 

 

Furthermore, I know a lot of people who live on Freedom then go play Chaos for a while then back to Freedom to chill and be care bears for a while.  The one play style does not become more important than the other just because someone chooses to exclusively play only one style all the time.

 

Plus or minus one? No idea, I love the variation in wagons, towers, banners, tall banners and the moonmetals with the accompanying runes and blingy bling that goes with it.  I am aware of casts that can predominately be done with pvp priests.  I like the idea that despite not wanting to play pvp at the moment, if, for some reason, I do get bored of pve one day I could potentially go to Chaos and retain my skill set, thus still playing Wurm but just with a different focus.  But then again, that pesky little sticking point of the shared code...better for the devs to sort this one out :wacko:

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I'd like to tame two dogs.  Would this mean I can tame two dogs without completely ruining the game for pvp players forever?

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I have met more toxic freedomers than I have chaos players which have this massive entitlement complex just because they think they are better than other players.

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