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JakeRivers

Have you Scored a Affinity yet?

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10 hours ago, Tpikoll said:

I got aggressive affinity.

This was gained through PvP though, not grinding..

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If the chance was 1/100000000000 you should be happy there is a chance at all :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Arium said:

this is the problem that i see with everyone right now. you mention mining. so what?

i have 99.99 mining and 100 digging. so yes, i certainly would have a fair chance of an affinity if i would be using high speed tools.

but what about the other 99% of players doing the other 99% of skills?

the 15 second window is so short that most players grinding a crafting skill with queued actions and coc only tools already have a longer action timer on their 3rd or so imping action.

the same applies to priests. if you look at the priest spell list you will notice that no commonly used spell could be used even once in this window.

so youre gambling a 1/7200 chance per second to open the window to get lucky to actually finish your cast within those 15 seconds to have a 1/(500+500*affinities) chance to get an affinity in channeling. you wont get a second chance during this window unless all you ever do is spam light tokens. need to sacc to regain favor for another cast? well youre out of luck.

 

tl;dr: stop looking only at the best cases possible and instead choose proper actions as an indicator. whats the use of a system like this if its only reasonably possible on a handful of actions?

 

I note that due to the new Epic mechanics, we have a much better chance to score affinities.

 

At any rate, the window mechanic encourages you to think that you always need to be doing something to get a skill tick. That's stressful. :P I realize that's easier on the servers, however, than examining every skill tick ever....

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Just play and get lucky, think that's the idea. If you're grinding for affinities then you're better off eating meals anyway

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35 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

If the chance was 1/100000000000 you should be happy there is a chance at all :ph34r:

Great logic there, doing something next to impossible is it's own reward?

 

You should apply for the PR team.

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12 hours ago, Yiraia said:

So... body soul and mind affinities are going to be super easy to get? Should we start grinding now with the fastest tools we have before anything changes?

 

 

 

It sounds like it would be, but also have to consider this note: "The chance to gain an affinity is 1/500 if you have no affinities in that skill, 1/1000 if you have one affinity, 1/1500 if you have two affinities, 1/2000 if you have 3 affinities and 1/2500 if you have 4 affinities."

 

That sounds like stat affinities will be pretty common, but once you got a bunch, it will be more biased towards skill affinities.

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2 hours ago, Inventor said:

The sense of entitlement is strong in this thread.

 

It's usually the problem when the details of balance related issues are described. Nobody can ever agree on balance (like how often you should get an affinity) and generally people try to aim to make it easier.

 

Some people always make it dramatic and be like "omg NO ONE WILL EVER GET ANYTHING" without actually waiting it out for a bit to see the actual results.

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1 hour ago, Kadore said:

Great logic there, doing something next to impossible is it's own reward?

 

You should apply for the PR team.

 


you should say thank you for even giving you a 1/10000000000000 chance, cause it was made to be a chance when before it was ZERO. Lol.
And it isn't even what i said, the odds are good for long term skilling. 

Do you people want fifty affinities in a month or something? Doesn't happen.

It's better to make it low chance first then adjust as needed than release and let everybody have 500 affinities in the first week. 

 

Quote

You should apply for the PR team.


I've been telling retro I'd make a great PRA, doesn't want to hear it tho. Give me a recommendation mate!

Edited by Mclavin
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More observations:

 

- On Epic, Fo priests have an inherent affinity-gaining advantage over Vyn priests, because Vyn's best channel-grinding spell (Opulence) takes 20 seconds to cast, while Fo's best (Morning Fog) takes 10. Thus, while grinding channeling as a Fo priest on Epic, I'm much more likely to hit the affinity window than a Vyn priest.

- Overall, it looks like creation-based activities have an advantage.

 

I would actually configure affinity chances this way:

 

The affinity window doesn't trigger based on time, but rather due to a roll during a skill tick. The window itself also is not time-based, but tick based. That is, the window lasts for X number of skill ticks. At that point, there could be a timer counting down for 2 hours or so before a skill tick can trigger another window.

 

That way, longer timers aren't punished, nor will players feel pressured to be generating skill ticks every 15 seconds.

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I'm not sure if anyone has done the math on this but I will attempt:

 

1/500 every 2 hours for 15 seconds for FIRST affinity.

 

I'm mining, my action timer is 2.7s on all 7 actions in queue. This is 5.5 actions possibly hitting the window, let's assume 6 not to be pessimistic.

we have 0.012 chance to get a mining affinity every 2 hours

so if I mine for 24/7 I should average out on the first mining affinity after about 8333 actions HITTING THE WINDOW.

Make that one window every 2h and it comes up with a long time.

 

Let's look at Blacksmith now.

 

I'm a good blacksmith 99.99+BS, "damn, this deservers a lot of affinity since you are doing it over and over again."

Wrong.

 

Action timers vary between tools used to imp with but I guess it's safe to assume 5 second on average.

this is 3 actions per window IF you hit it,

0.006 chance to get the affinity in each window.

grinding 24/7 comes up with 16666 actions to get the FIRST affi on average at my skill level.

And those are actions which hit the 15 second per 2 hour window. 16666x2h. This is almost 4 years of grind 24/7 without sleep, toilet or any other distractions. I bet I can get to 100 in BS before that.

 

Granted, body, soul, mind will be the most popular affinities gained if anyone gets one but that doesn't matter for most since gains are miniscule anyway.

 

So unless I misunderstood something in the update notes, and if I did, I will print and eat this math, this is pretty much yet another example of "you should have got on the bandwagon while you could".

People who got dozens of affinities because of the 2s premium are laughing and I'm fine with that. I didn't do it but that doesn't mean I didn't want to do it.

Only way to do the same was taken away so there is no way to "catch up" with those who risked it. Instead the above was presented. I don't think it's fair and I would prefer the option to do the same others did. I probably still wouldn't because I have zero intention going to Chaos but I would like to have the option.

 

It doesn't bother me at the slightest that someone has affinities, I have one and it's useless, it's nobody's business just as other people's affinities are none of mine but the fact that the option to "catch up" was effectively taken away doesn't seem fair. Yet again it feels like abusing loopholes IS rewarding in Wurm as it always was.

Edited by Locath
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Just now, Demonix said:

Wow, that's just depressing

 

I'm sorry, this is just for the first affinity in any skill. Chances for 5th are non-existent in human lifespan terms. 

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Like we've said in multiple posts.

 

Our focus is on getting this system out and working, we've started with low numbers to ensure it's smooth, we'd rather increase the chances for affinities later than deal with people getting them too fast and toning it down. 

 

we're logging every affinity gained from this system on every server and will review and adjust accordingly. We won't want this to be impossible, but we also don't want it to be a system that is easily gamed. 

 

you're also focusing on a specific affinity, especially given mining has the chance of giving 10 different affinities:

  • mining
  • pickaxe
  • misc items
  • body
  • body str
  • body stam
  • mind 
  • mind logic
  • soul
  • soul str

Each one of them has their own chances of becoming an affinity, which will all increase gains.

 

Long story short, affinities arent a system designed to be gamed and focused on, they're a reward for working as you go. If you do want a specific affinity, I advise playing with cooking

 

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20 minutes ago, Locath said:

 

 

I'm mining, my action timer is 2.7s on all 7 actions in queue. This is 5.5 actions possibly hitting the window, let's assume 6 not to be pessimistic.

we have 0.012 chance to get a mining affinity every 2 hours

so if I mine for 24/7 I should average out on the first mining affinity after about 8333 actions HITTING THE WINDOW.

This is only correct if all actions within that window yield mining skill gain which is not true even for optimized pick ql and difficulty. For 90 skill mining sandstone, optimal pick ql would be around 30-35 which would bring timer up and only yield 50-60 skill ticks per 100 actions. Assuming 4-5s timer hitting window 3 times and 60/100 chance of getting skill tick on every action, brings us to 1.8/500=0.0036 chance of getting exactly mining affinity every 2 hours.

 

It's not as grim if you remember that affinity window affects every skill gain within that window. It depends on the target skill, but usually you get 2-7 different skill/stat gains per action. Let's assume that on average you get 5 skill tab updates per action. In the example above, we would have 15/500=3% chance of getting random affinity(misc items, pickaxe, body, body str, body stam, etc.) every 2 hours with 5s timer and no affinities in any of the affected skills. But 5s timer is very optimistic estimate and you'd have to expend your resources much faster using woa tools(e.g search for new vein, make new set of low ql things to imp, etc). Most of my skill grinding timers are very close to 15 or even 20 seconds so I have ~1% chance of random affinity per 2 hours of grinding.

 

*when I say "random affinity" I actually mean "affinity in one of the skills affected by current action"

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It's also not skill GAIN, as that would require a 1.01-40 result, it's a successful skill CHECK, which means any action that rolls > 1 in a result. 

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1 hour ago, Locath said:

I'm not sure if anyone has done the math on this but I will attempt:

 

1/500 every 2 hours for 15 seconds for FIRST affinity.

 

I'm mining, my action timer is 2.7s on all 7 actions in queue. This is 5.5 actions possibly hitting the window, let's assume 6 not to be pessimistic.

we have 0.012 chance to get a mining affinity every 2 hours

so if I mine for 24/7 I should average out on the first mining affinity after about 8333 actions HITTING THE WINDOW.

Make that one window every 2h and it comes up with a long time.

 

Let's look at Blacksmith now.

 

I'm a good blacksmith 99.99+BS, "damn, this deservers a lot of affinity since you are doing it over and over again."

Wrong.

 

Action timers vary between tools used to imp with but I guess it's safe to assume 5 second on average.

this is 3 actions per window IF you hit it,

0.006 chance to get the affinity in each window.

grinding 24/7 comes up with 16666 actions to get the FIRST affi on average at my skill level.

And those are actions which hit the 15 second per 2 hour window. 16666x2h. This is almost 4 years of grind 24/7 without sleep, toilet or any other distractions. I bet I can get to 100 in BS before that.

 

Granted, body, soul, mind will be the most popular affinities gained if anyone gets one but that doesn't matter for most since gains are miniscule anyway.

 

So unless I misunderstood something in the update notes, and if I did, I will print and eat this math, this is pretty much yet another example of "you should have got on the bandwagon while you could".

People who got dozens of affinities because of the 2s premium are laughing and I'm fine with that. I didn't do it but that doesn't mean I didn't want to do it.

Only way to do the same was taken away so there is no way to "catch up" with those who risked it. Instead the above was presented. I don't think it's fair and I would prefer the option to do the same others did. I probably still wouldn't because I have zero intention going to Chaos but I would like to have the option.

 

It doesn't bother me at the slightest that someone has affinities, I have one and it's useless, it's nobody's business just as other people's affinities are none of mine but the fact that the option to "catch up" was effectively taken away doesn't seem fair. Yet again it feels like abusing loopholes IS rewarding in Wurm as it always was.

 

It is difficult, because it's supposed to be difficult. It's like complaining you spent literally all day imping horse shoes and none of them turned supreme. You're not entitled to a supreme horse shoe after a lot of imping, it's just a random reward you could get after your 1st or 100000th imp/creation.

 

That's disregarding all the affinities you can gain for other skills. Some actions involve quite a large number of skills and are fast to do, which significantly increases your chances of getting an affinity.

 

The issue of window of opportunities is always the same. If you leave it open, people complain. If you close it, people complain. In this case, it got closed and replaced with a similar solution, which seems pretty good.

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19 minutes ago, Retrograde said:

It's also not skill GAIN, as that would require a 1.01-40 result, it's a successful skill CHECK, which means any action that rolls > 1 in a result. 

Then Locath's calculations in his mining example are correct and mine were based on the wrong assumption. However I'm still not sure how skill checks work for stats, is it the same with skills and you have 10 different skill checks on every mining action? If so, then 5 actions within 15 seconds of affinity window make it 10% chance of getting the affinity in one of those skills.

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I love how people who use "entitled" a lot are the same people who believe that their opinion is the only right one........ kind of...........................................................

...

...entitled... eh?

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19 hours ago, Mclavin said:

you should say thank you for even giving you a 1/10000000000000 chance, cause it was made to be a chance when before it was ZERO. Lol.
And it isn't even what i said, the odds are good for long term skilling. 

There was a chance before the update, and that chance was by finding another player who is willing to sell it. I don't know what the odds of finding them were back then, but at least you can choose which affinity you were looking for. Also, this affinity update isn't really much to look forward to. How much fun is an update where its basically "Keep doing what you are doing, and maybe something cool will pop up :D" rather than a "Here is something interesting to do, try it out." Archaeology provided that. When I heard affinities will be able to be obtained, I was overly optimistic and thought of two things, like sacrificing items related to the skill of your preference for a chance. Of course over some thinking I realized priest would easily be jacked with farming/ropemaking/locksmithing affinities by simply attempting to get favor, and that not all skills have items that could be created from it, like the characteristics. The other thing I thought of was archaeology finding ancient books that would allow us to gain knowledge that makes it easier to learn certain skill (aka affinities). "How to train your dragon" (taming), "Chemistry for dumbies" (alchemy), etc. But no... Its random. And if you get something you dont like that much, such as firemaking (making ash, not grinding firemaking for skill), and another person gets something they dont like, like first aid (healing self and others at a rift, not grinding firstaid), then they are stuck with it. Perhaps those two people wanted one another's affinities?? Too bad, they can't trade it either.

Point is, the affinity gaining system is lack-luster, and will fall under a category similar to rarity. Something you forget about and will often come back to annoy you rather than benefit you. Why is it similar instead of the same? Because if you get rare items they can be traded with others who are interested in it. I disagree with those saying some chance is better than no chance. The "some chance" required effort from staff that could have been placed in something more amusing. 

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The system seems a bit backwards

It rewards faster actions, but if I am doing fast actions then it's very likely that i've already grinded up the skill to a point where I don't really care much anymore about affinities

 

When I am actually grinding a skill, I go for as long timers as possible

This is when I want and could use affinities

This is also where I have the lowest chance to gain one

 

?????????????????

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HOT FIX TO A BIGGER PROBLEM THEN JUST GAINING AFFINITIES 

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I don't think the math is correct.

let's assume you are mining something which rarely rolls under 1 (so i assume, something that won't give you many 1ql ores)

If you have 2.7sec actions (which are actually 1.8 REAL seconds) let's say 2secs on average, you might hit the same window up to 7 times, unless you aren't slacking, ofc.

For 10 different subskills, you might hit up the window up to 70 times (7 for each skill/subskill) let's round it up to 60, because of some "under 1" results and stamina regen wasted time.

That should be 60/500 every window, so, on average this should take 9 windows so 18 hours (for a random mining-related affinity and 180 hours for the specific "mining" affinity, while in the meantime you should get on average 9 other "random" affinities (in the 180 hours)

It's not good, but not an horrible chance either.

Only sad things is that the most easily obtainable affinities there will be characteristics, and among them the "pretty useless ones" like Soul or Soul strenght (do they even do anything? not sure)

I would personally tune it to 2x harder on charateristics (1000/2000/...) and easier on skills (200/400/...)

But yeah, i guess monitoring the thing and deciding later would be a solution too.

 

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1 hour ago, Davih said:

I don't think the math is correct.

let's assume you are mining something which rarely rolls under 1 (so i assume, something that won't give you many 1ql ores)

If you have 2.7sec actions (which are actually 1.8 REAL seconds) let's say 2secs on average, you might hit the same window up to 7 times, unless you aren't slacking, ofc.

For 10 different subskills, you might hit up the window up to 70 times (7 for each skill/subskill) let's round it up to 60, because of some "under 1" results and stamina regen wasted time.

That should be 60/500 every window, so, on average this should take 9 windows so 18 hours (for a random mining-related affinity and 180 hours for the specific "mining" affinity, while in the meantime you should get on average 9 other "random" affinities (in the 180 hours)

It's not good, but not an horrible chance either.

Only sad things is that the most easily obtainable affinities there will be characteristics, and among them the "pretty useless ones" like Soul or Soul strenght (do they even do anything? not sure)

I would personally tune it to 2x harder on charateristics (1000/2000/...) and easier on skills (200/400/...)

But yeah, i guess monitoring the thing and deciding later would be a solution too.

 

 

You missed my point a bit but I probably wasn't clear about it. I am aiming for a specific affinity, I don't care about body stats so the "70 times" point is mute. Up until last week I was able to pick and choose and invest money in affinity of my liking. Never did but I had the option. It was an accepted behaviour for years, not once challenged when people were selling their affi in Trade channel. 2s premium opened yet another window of opportunity which I did point out on the day the news about 2s deal was announced. This was taken away from all to "punish" a few who already care very little.

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chances are fine, this isn't so a player can go out and grind/gain every affinity in a month, you need to feel proud about affinities if you're lucky to get them. 

This isn't some "everybody must get one of each by the end of the year!" system...PvPers went over 100's of kills and only ever got 6-7 total from all their work, others got luckier. 
 

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