Malcore

Why nobody pvps in wurm.

189 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

I'd rather just see yearly server wipes to solve the problem of OP accounts. That would also allow the devs to make changes that would otherwise devalue the old accounts, as well as fix maps and introduce new stuff, and new players could get the fun of starting fresh in a virgin world.

 

It would, of course, need to be on a server where a yearly wipe was expected; no surprises.

Problem with this is. it'd good for some but not all. take someone who is in the military, they get deployed come back after 6 months. now they are 6 months behind, by the time they catch up. wipe. 

 

2ndly server wipes dont fit in with the lore per say. permadeath does fit in nicely. "Ageless" ones were all killed off as an example.

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On 1/10/2018 at 5:43 PM, Sunnyside said:

Forum bashing is all the " pvpers " have to do now a days. Just look at the forum post vs number of Average players logged into Chaos.  Now tell me anyone see anything wrong here ? lol 

 

Give them a reason to pvp  risk vs reward is a thing.  

 

That is because people who play on the PvP cluster have a different sense of community compared to those who play on freedom. It is generally much tighter knit while on the surface it may seem volatile and tough. Almost everyone who plays on a pvp server at least partially knows their enemy, or they directly know their enemy. Posting on the forums has been a long standing past time of all pvp players, and you would be surprised how many of the people posting are the same few dudes (my combined posting between all accounts on the forums has to be well over 7000). I could go to freedom and not know my neighbors, but on pvp clusters you kinda have to know.

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20 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Well in the beginning of the game there is a portal... It asks if you would like to join the PvE or PvP islands. People are aware that it exist and they don't go there. I thought that it would be obvious, but apparently I'm now a representative??? Somebody would need selective sight in order to teleport to and island without the knowledge that pvp exists. Then after jumping on PvE most of them stay there, enjoying themselves. I'm starting to question who is bathing in more salt now, people tend to have less rational thinking when they are salty.

 

It's not you Pvpers, its the result of there being pvp. I am still annoyed because my tamed creatures can't do crap with their CR buff. I will never forget the champion croc i charmed :( in excitement hoping to breed a lot of them so they can serve as tanky pets. The champion died to a stupid younger normal croc. It is possible I could have been lied to, but I was told that tamed/dominated animals had to be nerfed because they were really good in pvp. Just want to go ahead and clarify that that was not the initial reason as to why it was nerfed. Champion crocodiles and trolls and stuff were very strong in PvP to begin with, and one day rolf just ups and buffs them to the point where 80 body/99.9 fighting/90+weapon and shield skilled characters couldnt even dent them (Gavin even died to a crocodile with full drake on after the patch), at which point he nerfed both the animals and the tamed animals when people requested that just the animals get toned back down. Plenty of interesting suggestions have also been turned down because of the changes it would make to pvp, even though they would be interesting in PvE OR because it would make PvP less unique and attractive. You know how many PvE players want to have their own custom tents, wagons, banners, etc to be flashy. But nooope, It would make PvP less unique, so its a no no. Instead we have to go to PvP and spend 100 euros to make a kingdom (correct) and gather a whole bunch of people and other stuff, then we can make cool stuff. Its annoying when you are missing out on a cool sandbox feature because of stuff like that. Pvp shows that its possible, but its pvp exclusive. The example you gave isn't disallowed for PvP exclusivity, its not allowed because for every single custom tent wagon and banner it has to be manually added into the game by a dev. Do you know how much dev time that is? It take a single kingdom months to get theirs approved and implemented. If you wanted something like that, they would have to create an automated system.

 

Dumb things or simply things that happen by chance? Jerks are everywhere but they have more potential to do harm in PvP (not considered harm really if you enjoy it). if you are paying 8 silver on a non-rare sword then you are overpaying... I played this game just fine with a blank 70ql steel spear, 50ql+ studded leather (now 80-90ql studded leather), and that would be WAYYYY under 8 silver. If you choose to purchase more than you need just to avoid using cotton and running away from fights you can't handle, thats just your fault :). You also don't even need to go up to 70ql. 50ql would do just fine as a starter, and 50ql stuff is super cheap (even start with 50ql longswords now). Want to know another solution to that problem??? Play the game... Like no joke.. You are able to craft and survive. I dont see the enjoyment of logging into a game and immediately buying overpowered gear just to wreck everything around. People also have lives outside of wurm.. Its possible a person is busy or has a set goal they would like to achieve. You can't expect people to jump out of their chair to help boat you somewhere, but guess what.. Somebody has transported me around! I once told a friend the wrong island to start in. I then realized i had a character there too, but nothing to bring her to the island I lived on. We then sat around preparing to make a boat and eventually met a guy named toecutter. He gave us a sailboat! Free! and even transported us to the sailboat, didnt just say "Oh its over there." If your definition of a dumb thing on freedom is a person not having time to interact with you.. then thats weird. I have only met a few cancerous Freedom players, and most were actually associated with PvP players. I'm sorry you have been seeing the wrong people, But I have seen plenty of other people interact with others and had a great time. Finndar even made a post about one earlier :). Nobody on a PvP server purchases any gear, and if you do you are going against the advice of every single person who plays on one. There's no need, and you wouldn't have one as you would be given 90ql/90chants for free from any kingdom on any gear. Nobody calls that sortve interaction dumb, it used to happen somewhat frequently on PvP servers before the population took a dive around Epic's release.

I also saw a post about a new person meeting a guy like Rolandt or something of the sort. Thought the story was heart touching... Then I saw the reactions of everybody else associated with him and it was massive salt XD. Not completely sure what it was about, but seemed less friendly than what i see in PvE. The only unfriendly actions I am observing on PvE is the act of private slaying uniques. But unique gear has no requirement in wurm, and is certainly uglier than cloth imo. It does not directly harm me. About Rolandt, lets just say he went out of his way to cause personal problems for a lot of people and may have taken a lot of it way too far. A lot of the dislike is for good reason, and a lot of it is bandwagon.

 

 

Maybe if your pvp islands were actually filled with players they would make more islands. 

 

Too easy, Minecraft. Was that really not the first thing to come to your mind? Whenever you look at the server listings there the survival servers with PvE where small communities relax and play with one another. Then step into factions and prison!! Oh baby their population is far greater than the mainly PvE servers. But thats not it! Even more populated than factions is the minigames servers, FILLED with Pvp games and a few "not really pvp" games. The games that include fighting are often more occupied, and then the games like "Draw my thing" or "build competition" barely have people. So, can I reliably talk numbers :D

 

In general, just trying to clarify things that people thoroughly believe, but are just half-truths or flat out untrue. Everyone has their reasons, but, people shouldn't have a reason that doesn't actually exist.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Mordraug said:

PvE standpoint, mix of my own and others' in no particular order.

 

Why people don't PvP more:

-  RL responsibilities.  Not everyone can jump into the game the second a twitter alarm goes off, which leads to.... Nobody is required to do this, only the people who are actually around do this. I have never seen anyone take off work to reply to a deed being raided.

-  The part about offline raids that hit a deed with scorched earth policy. (It takes people being very motivated to raid a deed, and 90% of placed deeds have nothing in them, capitols where people live and things are stored happen very rarely. Only three in the past four years.)

-  ... and the risk of people joining your kingdom to steal everything.... which leads to.. Happens very rarely, the panda incident was the only one since the MRC incident, and the MRC incident was the only one since before PMK's were a thing.

-  The mistrust against new players due to the assumption that we have yet another spy alt. Doesn't really happen, out of all of TC's applications, we didn't trust one person who actually turned out to be the same guy who stole from Panda.

-  The forums' drama against each other makes the standard PvP toxicity way WAY more visible (maybe it's not half as dominant as one would think, but one would have to join PvP to find out in the first place, but the chances of appealing to the toxic types in the first place are rather large and visible.)

-  The constant dumping on suggestions that would make PvP "less unique" mixed with "we don't care about shinies but only we should have them to keep some incentive in PvP" paints the whole thing as lackluster unless you're gaming for a $0.10/hr profit.

-  The constant dumping on suggestions that would make PvP "less unique" mixed with "we don't care about shinies but only we should have them to keep some incentive in PvP" paints the whole PvP community as rather bratty and entitled. Correct on these two, but you also need to keep in mind all of the things that were promised to PvP and promised to be exclusive that people invested time and money into that were then flip-flopped. Such as the Valrei system. (Which was funny, It gets ported to freedom, freedom version gets all kinks ironed out, and Epic is left with a buggy POS husk of a system for another two years, the cluster it was intended to be on.)

-  Knowing that figuring out a non-bug advantage over others will just get the feature whined into nerfdom adds to the sense that PvP doesn't have much going for itself and never will due to the constant resistance against innovation.  Someone tamed a champ croc, PvP got taming nerfed instead of seeing it evolved into "3 champ crocs or 2 champ crocs and 2 hell hounds?".  Lends itself to cookie cutter playstyle.  Heck, PvP had people claiming that multi-story buildings would "ruin the game" at one point. I clarified this point in my other quote. The people complaining about it now have no idea what it was like before, because most of them didn't play when pets were used proactively, and nobody uses pets now. Multi-story buildings did ruin the game for a while, because it made deeds just about impossible to raid because they were buggy to the point where some walls were invulnerable, houses couldn't be removed, floors were invulnerable, and you could easily reproduce indestructible parapets. It was left like this since release and was only fixed about 8 months ago. Not to mention they also never updated the outdated siege mechanics in tandem with the update, which only made it worse.

-  Wurm's PvE selling points VASTLY outnumber the PvP selling points.  WoW-clones and first person shooters are generally WAY more attractive to PvP types than games ppl join because they can permanently modify the map and custom build on it.  Those games are waaaaay more combat-oriented than Wurm... WAY more.

-  Sometimes people just wanna chill, hermit or not. PvP happens like once a week. This is more than possible on a PvP server.

-  Seems like most of us prefer functional/pretty/open deeds to living in a fortified position. Correct, nothing you can do about this.

-  Using "carebear" as a slur won't make you any friends by and by. I don't think anyone actually cares about this, and if you do, your skin probably isn't thick enough for day to day RL activities, much less a video game.

-  Did I mention that constantly and publicly asking for things that'll "make PvP more unique to provide incentive" is openly telling the world that there's no real reason to PvP? Correct, but again, its not our fault that the developers took away the reason and a big portion of value over the sandbox. They design the game, its up to them to fix it.

-  People who progressed in a legit way suffering the collective punishment resulting from a few abusers. It's been like this since the game was available to play (I can attest to this firsthand from a PvP and a PvE perspective), and has little to do with PvP as it does more with the entire game. Not sure why this is here. It's also like this because for the longest time, abuse = reward + kept gains from abuse. Those who abused were also not punished because it encouraged the reporting of the bugs, but, the problem came with the bugs taking many months, sometimes years to be fixed. Or just swept under the rug.

-  "A PvE'er wouldn't last 3 seconds in PvP, they don't even know how to fight properly!".  Ok then. What? It has a learning curve sure but where are you seeing this?

-  "Git gud!!!!" as a reply to requests for QoL improvements on the PvE side.  Won't make you any friends either. Er, what?

-  I ain't been keeping track... are kingdoms more balanced now?  Because one kingdom having a permanent upper hand like it was (is?) at some point doesn't leave much PvP to join in the first place. It's like this in every PvP game ever made, not sure what to say here. People like to join the winning team, if they didn't, it would be more balanced.

 

........ and last but not least:

-  The mockery and backlash that PvE players get when explaining why we ain't biting the WOPvP hook.  You guys are shoddy telepaths and psychoanalists to say the least =P

 

Well, when you see an actual true reason, it makes sense, but when you see something that is blatantly untrue such as "you have to spend a lot of money on gear", you cringe into another dimension because ITS NOT TRUE. Most people likely won't change their mind, but, a handful will probably realize a lot of what theyve been told second-hand is absolute ###### and might be interested trying it out with that in mind as the barrier to their entry is no longer present.

 

Edited by Prophetears
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On 1/11/2018 at 5:13 AM, Wulfgarr said:

id like to weigh in on this also.

number 1 - OP is wrong, there is, always will and has always been pvp, just the amount is low and it isnt everyday all day. Someone who plays rust as my second most played game i can say the difference in pvp between rust and wurm is huge. But its impossible to put them side to side. As someone who plays mostly fast paced servers and pvps the whole playtime in rust i can say i never get the shakes i get while pvping in Wurm. Everyone actually been in pvp in wurm can say its something sooo special, addicting. FPS can never give the same experience.

number 2 - I went to chaos with a toon (which is decent, has SoTG, some tomes and so on) naked. Now i have all the weapons i need, drake set, horse gear and so forward. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BUY DRAKE/SCALE. Alot of people still pvp in plate, but there isnt any need for it. Whoever is telling you, you need to make 500-1k investment to pvp on chaos are stupid and have no idea what they are saying. Even the very decent pvp accounts with SoTG and needed skills can be bought for 200-300€. And they are under average freedom accounts by body stats/skill wise. Seeing the accounts which are on freedom i sometimes worrie, if i would run into them on chaos, if i would survive. And making a new acc pvp ready is around 5-6 months max. It wont be top end acc but it will easily capable on chaos.

number 3 - Ever wonder why people who played pvp( actually pvped, not grinded on chaos deeds) always go back? Wurm in pvp mindset is one of the best games. Its not just wurm+ its wurm + on drugs. So people who are telling you, get a 70 ql plate set, join a kingdom of your liking and try it out are actually giving you a superb advice. No one who hasnt been to chaos can tell others how chaos is, if they do they it would be the same as i would be saying - flying a plane is like this! I have never done it but i watched a movie. NO, it does not work like that.

 

Also this, a lot of people do not get the culture surrounding Wurm as a pvp game, it is truly the penultimate of wurm the last being retirement. You are not just making plate or chain to fight some trolls or wolves nearby, you are actively working as one cog in a large machine that is a running kingdom working together to hopefully have these cogs propel the machine forward. You are building a tower for a strategic importance, it has to be done, not just for decoration. You are making that weapon so you can supply a new guy, so he can fight the enemy. You are making bricks not for a stable, or a church, you are making fortifications for a war front.

 

Just thinking about it, makes me want to get back into Wurm PvP again like right now. THIS IS THE EFFECT ACTUALLY OCCURING.

 

It is a drug.

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3 hours ago, gorgian said:

Problem with this is. it'd good for some but not all. take someone who is in the military, they get deployed come back after 6 months. now they are 6 months behind, by the time they catch up. wipe. 

 

That's a corner case (and the timing could just easily work out well). Also, if it were -really- popular, nothing says there couldn't be overlapping servers (so different worlds start staggered, allowing new players to join fairly new worlds no matter when they come). I believe an old browser PvP game called Travian implemented that successfully.

 

3 hours ago, gorgian said:

 

2ndly server wipes dont fit in with the lore per say. permadeath does fit in nicely. "Ageless" ones were all killed off as an example.

 

Lore is easy. :) For example, I'd consider making the temporary servers "reverse rifts" on Jackal and Seris. Those places are so strange, that everyone's skills are reset upon entering, and the portals from Wurm are unstable, so you know you won't be there long.

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

That's a corner case (and the timing could just easily work out well). Also, if it were -really- popular, nothing says there couldn't be overlapping servers (so different worlds start staggered, allowing new players to join fairly new worlds no matter when they come). I believe an old browser PvP game called Travian implemented that successfully.

 

 

Lore is easy. :) For example, I'd consider making the temporary servers "reverse rifts" on Jackal and Seris. Those places are so strange, that everyone's skills are reset upon entering, and the portals from Wurm are unstable, so you know you won't be there long.

 

Yeah cause players would surely continue to play on their ten year old characters if they got wiped, such nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

That's a corner case (and the timing could just easily work out well). Also, if it were -really- popular, nothing says there couldn't be overlapping servers (so different worlds start staggered, allowing new players to join fairly new worlds no matter when they come). I believe an old browser PvP game called Travian implemented that successfully.

 

Looking at WU pvp. One could say those are wiped. The pop on those pvp servers are rather low id say. so this clear doesn't work.

 

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

Lore is easy. :) For example, I'd consider making the temporary servers "reverse rifts" on Jackal and Seris. Those places are so strange, that everyone's skills are reset upon entering, and the portals from Wurm are unstable, so you know you won't be there long.

Lore is easy to make up, but why making it up when we already have it. Adding in permadeath is only a few changes in code. done. What your thinking is a bit more work. 

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I lived on Chaos for 1.5 - 2 years and at some point I just got tired of it. I guess it's a combination of things and I am certain that some will recognize what I feel.
The community is too toxic and hostile (a.k.a kindergarten mentality and by far not enough gm intervention), pay2win accounts, items and gear in combination with full loot and snowball mechanics, bad gameplay mechanics (remember karma teleporting), it's stressful and time consuming and the experience/knowledge gap between players is big. Some have perfected their ways to build and fight.

 

In the end, it's just more fun to login on Exodus and to not have to worry about anything.

Or not to login and enjoy real life and making money on the job.

 

Wurm's PVP is unique and the fighting is very different from PVE.
It's about communities, about terrain, about tactics and strategy, about logistics and politics, about crafting and fighting. Who cares about the combat system?

With all of the stories people have to tell, you would think this is the computerized version of Game of Thrones.


I do have some great memories: the WL/BL bash, the destruction of Sparta 2014, the pvp adrenaline (never had that in any other computer game), the people.

 

Mmmmh, maybe I'm just getting old.

Greets,

 

Bitter.

Edited by Bittereinder
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1 hour ago, Theodein said:

 

Yeah cause players would surely continue to play on their ten year old characters if they got wiped, such nonsense.

 

I'm not following. I originally suggested the above (in a different thread) as something in addition to Epic, where players could jump into a fairly short-lived world and get something nice to bring back to Epic.

 

59 minutes ago, gorgian said:

Looking at WU pvp. One could say those are wiped. The pop on those pvp servers are rather low id say. so this clear doesn't work.

 

WU has other factors. I didn't play on WU because WO is official, and can be expected to be maintained. Once you decide to leave WO for WU, however, how many different WU servers are there to choose from (including potentially your own)? Talk about splintering the pop!

 

59 minutes ago, gorgian said:

Lore is easy to make up, but why making it up when we already have it. Adding in permadeath is only a few changes in code. done. What your thinking is a bit more work. 

 

Permadeath just means you could lose all your effort to RNG, a bug, griefing, etc., and from a mechanics perspective, it simply increases repetition. For that reason, I've ultimately found permadeath to be boring; it's imbalanced gameplay.

 

It's why old games had the concept of levels and lives. Call it balanced punishment: if I'm on level 134 of 150 (Lode Runner! :P ) and die, having extra lives means I can restart level 134 and not have to go back to level 1. And if I -did- have to go back to level 1, then it's much easier to invest my time in a new game entirely, instead of repeating an old one. That makes permadeath bad for business.

 

Permadeath may have a narrow appeal, but I get the impression that mechanics with narrow appeal are not what Wurm needs right now. :P

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4 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

WU has other factors. I didn't play on WU because WO is official, and can be expected to be maintained. Once you decide to leave WO for WU, however, how many different WU servers are there to choose from (including potentially your own)? Talk about splintering the pop!

Last i played on it. it really boils down to the person(s) hosting it, on how many they choose(servers) An to see all the server you can always check WU forums or steam forums, or https://wurm-unlimited.com/

 

15 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

It's why old games had the concept of levels and lives. Call it balanced punishment: if I'm on level 134 of 150 (Lode Runner! :P ) and die, having extra lives means I can restart level 134 and not have to go back to level 1. And if I -did- have to go back to level 1, then it's much easier to invest my time in a new game entirely, instead of repeating an old one. That makes permadeath bad for business.

 

Permadeath may have a narrow appeal, but I get the impression that mechanics with narrow appeal are not what Wurm needs right now. :P

Yep, but all game have graphs in the back ground just laid out different, and yes permadeath was just an example for a previous statement someone had made about being able to take care of everything on pvp side. But long story short, not everything was the point :)

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This thread has been showing up since like, 2008?

 

It's like treating a sucking chest wound with a band-aid. Wurm PVP is fatal in design and mechanic, so dont expect any changes or worthwhile endeavors to bring back a non-existent population.

 

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1 hour ago, Shazaam said:

This thread has been showing up since like, 2008?

 

It's like treating a sucking chest wound with a band-aid. Wurm PVP is fatal in design and mechanic, so dont expect any changes or worthwhile endeavors to bring back a non-existent population.

 

Not expecting, change has already happened.   points to epic. Points to chaos. As for non-existent pop. Not sure about that one. I've seen extremely horrid games out there. points to steam. With the right marketing did well for what they had to offer.

Edited by gorgian

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17 hours ago, Prophetears said:

 

In general, just trying to clarify things that people thoroughly believe, but are just half-truths or flat out untrue. Everyone has their reasons, but, people shouldn't have a reason that doesn't actually exist.

*snippetysnip*

 

 

You forgot to say "In the name of love".

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