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Aegis55

Discussion: Is fatigue system here to force multi account usage

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Fatigue in Wurm is silly and make little sense to me... though if you're really hitting it constantly that is pretty crazy because 12hours of timers is also kind of crazy.

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15 hours ago, Corsan said:

Not sure how/what certain people do to achieve hitting it,

I hit it once while fishing (5 action queue at the time with actions taking 1-2 minutes each.. i was only checking my pc every 5 minutes to queue up and drop fish and read a book or something). It was a real bummer that i had to turn off the game for a couple hours after that since i couldnt even light an oven.

I don't know if there is, but i think there should be a colored warning for when u have about 30 minutes left on your fatigue so that you can save it for important actions and switch activities.

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5 hours ago, Kurson said:

I don't know if there is, but i think there should be a colored warning for when u have about 30 minutes left on your fatigue so that you can save it for important actions and switch activities.

+1 on this one, even when it would not help in cases like mine

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6 hours ago, Maximillian said:

Fatigue in Wurm is silly and make little sense to me... though if you're really hitting it constantly that is pretty crazy because 12hours of timers is also kind of crazy.

It's not only kind of crazy, i know that it is crazy.

And the problem occors, once you reached it your caught in the 2 hours waiting - 1 hours playing loop.

 

I'm back on 12 hours of fatigue now, but only for the reason that i currently refuse playing, except helping people out at the village.

Only a few guys begging me to stay are the reason I'm still here chatting.

 

Against the "advantage" fatigue is not really working. I reached my goal, Papyrusmaking 70, thus wearing a new title. And i think no one

is afraid that i show up on Chaos with my "Advantage" and kill everyone with Confetti.

But reaching the title in the end only made me feel sad. Not cause its not an achievment, that i have a unique title after 5 weeks playing.

I simply knew that now I'm forced wether to regenerate my fatigue, go fighting/meditating for god fakes or play an alt character.

Its the simple fact of being told: "Go do something else, the current action you want todo is not supported anymore"

 

Overruling a players gameplay with such a system is simply wrong, and if i would choose to adapt my playstyle instead of fighting

against this crap i would feel like a wimp.

 

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35 minutes ago, Aegis55 said:

...  that i have a unique title after 5 weeks playing.

 

And here is your problem! This is not what Wurm Online is meant to be! 

 

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16 minutes ago, Yaga said:

 

And here is your problem! This is not what Wurm Online is meant to be! 

 

Wurm is what you make of it

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1 minute ago, bamv said:

Wurm is what you make of it

 

... within game rules and implemented mechanisms! 

 

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35 minutes ago, Yaga said:

 

And here is your problem! This is not what Wurm Online is meant to be! 

 

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that this system is a bit outdated and pointless.

 

I have yet to see one good reason being brought forward for this system to be in place... and spare me the health one - 12h of rested time is way to much... if you wanted for this to be a health reason then we should not have more than 2-3h per RL day which effenctively could have us sit 3-5h at our PCs which is already way to long from a health point of view.

 

Now to touch upon your (thats how I assume you meant it to be) "Wurm is meant to be slow" reasoning, why do we have sleep powder then that can be bought left and right either by buying more prem time or from other players? It doubles skill gain to speed things up significantly (meant to be slow, unless you buy yourself free from those shackles... mh?).

Which leads me back to Aegis55 suggestion of having a equivalent of Sleep Powder in the form of Rested Powder or so that fills up your fatigue timer.

Essentialy its the same, one powder gives you double skill gain in a given timeframe - the other powder just extends the timeframe at normal skillgain.

Now, I get the systems go a bit further than that looking at the Vynoras Wisdom spell and some other aspects, but its not about small details now - those can always been taken care of in some other way.

 

No matter how you logically twist this topic, there is absolutely no good reason for this system to be in place.

And no - it wont prevent botting either, as I said already once - when I hit the fatigure cap 2 days in a row due surfacemining like crazy and a question window poped up - THAT is anti botting, because I couldn't do anything until I gave that box a answer. I am not sure if thats a automated process or a GM had their fun with me after I complained a bit on IRC about that fatigue stuff hampering my surfacemining (but who would bot surfacemining and possibly ruin the landscape?).

 

There is only one good point against it - we pay a subscription fee here and to artifically limit the time we can play is kind of... not ok.

Any game you pay a sub, you can do whatever you want with your time.

We are grown ups... we do not need a big brother watching our every move... thats only a thing in China.

 

(I am not affected so I could care less, but I just don't like to see how a dedicated player that enjoys the game is being reduced to be a minority that no one needs to cater to - we have a small player base as is, no need to alienate people by being unflexible or walling any possible discussion they bring up - specially when they have a valid point, in my opinion anyhow.)

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1 hour ago, Yaga said:

 

And here is your problem! This is not what Wurm Online is meant to be! 

 

Really, don't see that as a problem at all. No clue who sees that as a problem. I love this aspect of Wurm that even as new player you can achive awesome things not done by everyone, just if you aim for it. Its a good thing. Like i was slaying a champion blue whale after 3 weeks, it was close to impossible, it was dangerous, i don't got any special reward, but i wanted to do it.

 

And seriously, i refuse the idea that anyone could tell me what a game is all about. Its up to me what i make out of it.

Currently i run around giving all my high end equipement to other players cause i adapt now a playstyle i call being a ingame-monk. No rares, no high enchanted stuff. Insane isn't it, i still enjoy it, except the fact that i'm currently not in the mood to do anything.

 

Instead i keep the holy fatigue up to 12 hours, not scratching it a bit in the hope the holy health people are promising me here is coming above me.

 

Yaga, seriously, I'm the wrong person to talk about "problems" with. I got really a lot, but even when I'm angry and having an offensive mind naturally, i keep this thematic and all around in a civilized manner.

What turns me down are people that simply throw in a line like yours above. Thats nothing than trash talking me down and for i read you are a chat moderator, i usually expect a more open minded way to argue from Chat moderators, but perhaps thats just me.

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5 hours ago, Aegis55 said:

Yaga, seriously, I'm the wrong person to talk about "problems" with. I got really a lot, but even when I'm angry and having an offensive mind naturally, i keep this thematic and all around in a civilized manner.

What turns me down are people that simply throw in a line like yours above. Thats nothing than trash talking me down and for i read you are a chat moderator, i usually expect a more open minded way to argue from Chat moderators, but perhaps thats just me.

So, just to come up to this again, if this has been seen as an "offense" then i say I'm sorry. (same for drawing the thematics into public chat)

 

I read your input and was a bit annoyed cause picking out a single statement about what i did and how you see it, is for me not really an argument. 

And for I experienced such tactics to drew the attention to something that has nothing todo with the thematic a lot in my life, i called that "trash-talking", cause for me thats the term for such a kind of distracting technique in discussions. 

Cause just that my goal was somehow "stupid" for a lot of people has nothing todo with the fact that people that stick on one char and play a lot can run into the fatigue issue.

 

And all say its hard to really use up that 12 hours, but the main issue is, once you're down on 0 hours, your caught there.

And seen it that way, when you tell people they have to wait 2 hours, to continue for 1 hour than that all looks a bit different.

I admit a lot don't understand my "unhealthy" playstyle of about 16 hours a day, but stopping focusing my mind on something like a game usually leads to the effect that I'm simply bored and smoke the twice amount of cigarettes. I tend to "addicted" behaviour and I see computer games as the most "healthy" addiction possible.

 

But the same thing could happen if a working player is on vacation for two weeks and gets the fixed idea to grind something hard that 2 weeks.

 

What I say is not to offense, but what i want to somehow pass to the staff of the game is: Its perhaps no fault being a bit more "emphatic" to a player that had a weekend spending 16 hours waiting for nothing. Cause really, thats not just like you wait 1 hour, don't know anyone of you ever waited 16 hours on somthing in sum, thats simply terrible. I know there are solutions like "doing something else", but for me that was simply not possible and as paying player i wonder a bit that no one cares. (and even if i would be a non-paying player I would expect "emphaty" cause a non-paying can turn into a paying one too if feeling welcome)

 

Hope this helps bringing the topic back on a kind of civilized discussion about the thematics, and not how stupid i am or that i feel mistreated by staff a bit in this case.

 

So, i keep the rest of the discussion for others to state what they are thinking about. Thanks for reopening the thread.

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6 hours ago, Milkdrop said:

I have yet to see one good reason being brought forward for this system to be in place... and spare me the health one - 12h of rested time is way to much... if you wanted for this to be a health reason then we should not have more than 2-3h per RL day which effenctively could have us sit 3-5h at our PCs which is already way to long from a health point of view.

 

Plus, the game promotes -way- too much clicking to be healthful. :P

 

At any rate, I'm fundamentally wary of any mechanics that punish honest players in attempts to stop cheaters. (For that matter, the community itself could diminished the value of botted accounts by not buying from them or inviting them to kingdoms, and I suspect that would be more effective than the fatigue system.)

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On 12/11/2017 at 7:49 PM, Kurson said:

I hit it once while fishing (5 action queue at the time with actions taking 1-2 minutes each.. i was only checking my pc every 5 minutes to queue up and drop fish and read a book or something). It was a real bummer that i had to turn off the game for a couple hours after that since i couldnt even light an oven.

I don't know if there is, but i think there should be a colored warning for when u have about 30 minutes left on your fatigue so that you can save it for important actions and switch activities.

 

Interesting. I have 6 action queue, and have done long stints of fishing and haven't ever run into it (38 fishing). I've also done mind-numbing hours of pottery (61 skill) or blacksmithing (77 skill) and that's never put me over either.

 

Also used to shipbuild like mad for hours on end, never stopping...I found a half finished knarr years back and spent 3 hard RL days with only a couple hour break in between for quick sleep just pounding away on it to finish it...didn't have the proper skill, and lots of failures...but I didn't stop until it was finished. I never hit fatigue.

 

17 hours ago, Milkdrop said:

Any game you pay a sub, you can do whatever you want with your time.

 

Within reason...or as Yaga put it...

 

18 hours ago, Yaga said:

... within game rules and implemented mechanisms! 

 

...because we are playing their game and cannot do whatever we want willy-nilly. (Like hacking the server to put on god-mode for everyone or something else detrimental to the game.)

Referencing thread :
 

I personally don't think this thwarts macroing either, as it would need a way lower threshold, as per Milkdrop's comments in reference to health initiatives. 12+ hours of a bot/macro wailing on something before it stops it is 12+ hours way too long for a bot to be allowed to do it's work.

Fatigue as it currently works effects actual playing/paying members. (Who may or may not have what would be deemed a 'unhealthy' lifestyle.)

Heck, I'm only 10+ papyrusmaking and if they achieved 70+ in that after 5 days, even I congratulate them on their persistence...as that was boring work. Even if they just did it with woodscraps and didn't even get someone to make whole fields worth of reed for their usage...that's a lot of doing one thing over and over again. (Personally, I think the whole woodscraps = paper thing should only work up till 20ish skill and then should require reed..but that's for another thread...)

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While I can see the madness of managing to burn one's fatigue in the first place....

 

I agree that the fatigue system needs to go.  Pretty sure I'm not the only one who's been worknapped away from the computer for one week too many in a row, and finally scores a long weekend, buys a dozen red bulls, and decides to go for a 20 hour binge.  Well, with fatigue, bye bye binge.

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When I started playing, as i was in vacation i was able to play a lot of hours each day, and since i was a newbie scared of the big brown bear that was in the mine and stopping me from getting any iron, I started training FS with practice dolls.. and I managed to hit the fatigue limit a few times that week. From what I saw, once you hit that limit, you will have a hard time recovering from it and you will most likely hit it again even if you "slow down" on your actions a bit.

I don't see any reason either for this system.. I understand that it stops from getting uber accounts that pvp people bicycle around non-stop which is probably a good thing.. but are 3-4 accounts that are used in rotation for that any different ?

+1 to any type of change to a useless system

Edited by faty
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6 hours ago, Corsan said:

...because we are playing their game and cannot do whatever we want willy-nilly. (Like hacking the server to put on god-mode for everyone or something else detrimental to the game.)

No one speaks of hackin the Servers, this is a discussion to get something changed for the betterment of the game as it is the only way we have to influence something - raise the issue and hope someone listens. ;)

 

That aside, the advertisement and premium shop says we pay for 30 days of "premium" time.

Considering that login is also possible as a free player... whats left when fatigue hits?

Fighting, Cooking.. unfinished list? https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Fatigue

Sure, you keep your skill levels... but whats that worth if you can not do much with it?

Not very appealing. :(

 

Also the Account Wurmpedia site neither the Premium shop does anywhere explain that of the 720 hours (30 days) we pay, you effectively only get 240 hours (10 days) of "fatiguing tasks" or "timer time". https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Account_Types

(I guess thats why we pay 8eur instead of a full fledges sub price of 13Eur-ish?)

 

From a legal point of view those areas do deserve a disclaimer just to be safe imo (no one wants anything bad to come around the corner, me the least... love my Wurm).

Before a person buys into it they should be informed of this system and not run into it by pure chance as Aegis55 did - specially after he invested over 100 Euros already.

 

You can not push everything to the customer responsibility wise, specially if the fatigue page is hidden deep in the wurmpedia and no one would look for it until the game gives you the red fatigue flag.

The argument that "no one hardly ever hits this amount of game/timer time" really does not work here either, 30 days is what we pay for by advertisement on the shop and it certainly lacks the information that the fatigue system COULD that IF you hit the fatigue cap limit your playtime drastically (down to 1/3rd of what you thought you paid for).

Merely betting on the fact no one would ever play this much specially in a super time intense game as Wurm does seem a bit naive and here we have our first case of someone who can keep up with the fatigue timer and I think the biggest problem for him is - that once you have hit the zero on fatigue its really annoying to get back up again.

 

So, if the system remains in place it would at least help to make sure people get the information of the fatigue system BEFORE they end up paying a cent.

(ofc I would prefer if something was changed so that people who want to binge play or as Aegis55 can enjoy the game fully, how that change may look is up to the devs then.)

 

(Personal Disclaimer: I am in no way affected by the problem - I merely want to point out things hoping it will do something good for Wurm. As the Problem affects gamewise only a small portion of players, I do not think this requires a immediate reaction... but in due time it would be nice. How urgent the disclaimer for the shop page would be... hard to tell... it went fine for a century, just takes one annoyed person to start something though so meh...)

Edited by Milkdrop
typos v.v
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You should know that a month of wurm prem time also is 29? 28? real life days as well :P It's some really random number decided on by Rolf? *Becket once told me he asked Rolf and was told the amount of days in a month of prem.

Edited by Pingpong

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6 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

You should know that a month of wurm prem time also is 29? 28? real life days as well :P It's some really random number decided on by Rolf? *Becket once told me he asked Rolf and was told the amount of days in a month of prem.

It's 30 days, it even says it in the shop. Pretty much every single subscription based game counts a month as 30 days.

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1 hour ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

It's 30 days, it even says it in the shop. Pretty much every single subscription based game counts a month as 30 days.

That has nothing to do with what it actually counts it as, I just subscribed and got 29 days iirc last week. I chuckle and keep going. For years the website said you could ride dragons if memory serves (you couldn't), that was only amended somewhat recently lol. Wurm is kinda funny that way.

Edited by Pingpong

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fatigue is hard to get through normal gameplay... but someone of us including myself are not normal and can pull crazy focused grind for a day or two... and that's enough to hit the fatigue cap... and yes, the trouble is that once you hit the fatigue cap, you can't do a thing and NOTHING can be done to help you.

 

GMs can check if we are macroing like crazy... but cannot reset the fatigue timer, making that thing useless as a mean of catching / preventing macroers and only stop the real players from achieving what they want (which is one of the many options WO offers afterall).

 

The only real use i can see of fatigue is the conversion of it to sleep bonus through the vynora wisdom spell. Something that can easilly be changed to a 30 minutes cooldown on the character and a complete removal of the outdated and annoying fatigue system.

 

Normal players won't see a change, macroers probably already switch accounts and the rest of us trully dedicated players will finally be able to play in peace without a half broken system in the way.

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Have never once hit the fatigue limit but then again I change task a lot through out the day. Use to build boats all day everyday and never once hit the limit. 

But I will say that any system that punishes a player for playing the game is a bad system. As far as anti botting goes am pretty sure the people that are botting have more than one account and that goes for the " it's your health " reasoning for this fatigue system.  Alt's solve many issues.

 

Get rid of this out dated system.

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You seem to have 2 problems going on.  First, you have played enough every day that you managed to use up all your fatigue.  Second, you play enough every day that the 8 hours fatigue a day is getting used up before it gets to refill.  I doubt they will change this, so I suggest that you take a full day (or even better, 36 hours) off from the game.  That will give you full fatigue and it will be a while before you hit empty fatigue again.  A day off once in a while is a good thing, go enjoy life as best you can.  Using your health condition as an excuse for playing the game all day every day is not helping you with you health problems.

Edited by Vroomfondel
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12 minutes ago, Vroomfondel said:

 Using your health condition as an excuse for playing the game all day every day is not helping you with you health problems.

Vroomfondel, for I already mentioned that Fatigue only strikes single-account-players the health issue is not really an argument.

And even when I take a year off from the game, all games, from computers or whatever you think is unhealthy, it would not affect my health a little bit. (at least not in a postive way)

 

I'm really wondering that there are so many friendly people around that care for MY health. Really, thats a caring attitute and for I heard the health issues now so often in this thread, I think all health apostels go and make there own thread asking for a honest "Multi-Account-Health-Protection-Fatigue-System" cause we should really protect those poor souls that can't help themselves.

(but think, people could still switch games, perhaps you should write a meaningful letter to Bill Gates that he should include a health system into Microsoft Windows, would make him laugh)

 

But don't point a finger towards me if your issue gets through and it kills the game cause a lot of dedicated players that simply use multi accounts to prevent fatigue issues will leave this game.

Edited by Aegis55
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A month of prem is closer to 28 than 29, but certainly not a month or 30 days even.

 

Rolf lives in perpetual leap year of all the months being February.

 

 

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Make account sharing illegal and I'll get on board on removing fatigue.

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