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Mclavin

Disable affinity stealing involving freedomers *Updated*

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2 hours ago, Iberis said:

There would be nothing stopping them doing that as Hots, an exisiting PMK but acting independantly or even forming their own PMK.

 

You are correct.  There is nothing stopping them doing it as Hots or creating their own PMK.  But there is nothing that says they have to.  Perhaps they don't want to be HOTS, or want to join an existing PMK for some reason.  And not everyone has the funds or desire to create a PMK unless they have gotten alot cheaper.  I think you need to take that into consideration.  But it seems as though you think those people might not be serious.  The ability to do what they do as freedom kingdom says that it is something that has to be considered.  Otherwise they would not allow someone as freedom to even plant a deed on chaos.

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22 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

Doesn't address alt farming

Actually the way I read it, it truly does. I am interpreting as feedback saying the proposed solution for alt farming doesn't take into account a valid and permitted way of playing the game that is different then how you (and many others) play the game. 

 

It comes down to what is the higher priority - fixing alt farming or preventing people from playing as freedom characters in the way that they want to?

 

If the second consideration is more important then the first then we need to pivot and come up with a better way to prevent alt farming that also allows freedom characters to play the way that they want to.

 

Hmmm, perhaps a simple cool down that a Freedom player won't get the affinity in their skill list until they have played a certain amount of time on Chaos since killing someone. So they kill someone, stay on the server for a day and then the affinity is available to them if a freedom character. Not perfect, perhaps a nod in the right direction?

 

~Nappy

Edited by Nappy

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10 minutes ago, Nappy said:

Actually the way I read it, it truly does. I am interpreting as feedback saying the proposed solution for alt farming doesn't take into account a valid and permitted way of playing the game that is different then how you (and many others) play the game. 

 

It comes down to what is the higher priority - fixing alt farming or preventing people from playing as freedom characters in the way that they want to?

 

If the second consideration is more important then the first then we need to pivot and come up with a better way to prevent alt farming that also allows freedom characters to play the way that they want to.

 

Hmmm, perhaps a simple cool down that a Freedom player won't get the affinity in their skill list until they have played a certain amount of time on Chaos since killing someone. So they kill someone, stay on the server for a day and then the affinity is available to them if a freedom character. Not perfect, perhaps a nod in the right direction?

 

~Nappy

This is interesting to me, I see nothing wrong with this idea at all....However it did prompt me to think, so if we agree to penalize freedom kingdom on chaos because of alt farming. Where's the shoe on the other foot? After a pvp kill you're not allowed on freedom for 24, 48 hours or even 1 week? Whatever is decided it has to work both ways *fairly*, otherwise it's simply a pve nerf (dreaded nerf word). Telling pve "you suck" and we're going to stick it to you because we don't like how you're using our server is beyond stupid.  But I've seen a few ideas that look a lot like that, to be fair not all.

I've nothing against forcing toons to be online to regain their affinity, I'd probably prefer them to have the option of either freedom or chaos. I've nothing against keeping toons who participate in any kill stuck on chaos for x hours. Ideally this would solve the insta run to freedom with loot as well.

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[11:21:31] Woahiii slain by Oblivionnreaver
[11:21:41] Woahiiiii slain by Oblivionnreaver
[11:22:02] Woahiiii slain by Oblivionnreaver
[11:22:18] Woahiiiiii slain by Oblivionnreaver
[11:22:28] Woahii slain by Oblivionnreaver
[11:22:44] Woahi slain by Oblivionnreaver

 

At this point I really don't mind what the solution to the problem is. Affinity farming really needs to stop it's getting out of control now.

 

Mizova-Today at 11:27 AM

 
Like does your reputation mean nothing to you?
 
 

King Kurtis-Today at 11:27 AM

 
No not really

 

They don't care that they are exploiting. We need GM's to enforce a rule to prevent this or an update of some kind to prevent it.

 

 

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Retrograde - Today at 11:10 PM

It's under review by the dev team

 

There you go, can stop making threads about it now.

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Six years and I never knew this was a thing.  I've sometimes thought about getting myself killed just to lose the soul depth affinity, but then again it's part of who my character is at this point.  Lots of James Brown blaring while terraforming.  Too hot for the hot tub!

 

If it is currently possible for people to live on Chaos under the generic Freedom banner, I'd like to see that remain as is.  It'd be wrong to punish people who do that legitimately just because others choose to abuse the system.

 

With the caveat that I don't know much about this... what if returning to PvE isles from Chaos with a recent (in game time) PvP kill flags you as an outlaw, meaning you will be attacked by every guard/templar/angry-housefrau you encounter?  Not sure if that would be deemed a deterrent for such folks, but from my standpoint it'd be annoying.

 

*Inspired by @Nappy's suggestion of temporarily banning people's return entirely, just a different take that would maybe keep the ball rolling rather than the more artificial-feeling temp travel ban.

Just a thought.

 

3 hours ago, Oblivionnreaver said:

Retrograde - Today at 11:10 PM

It's under review by the dev team

 

There you go, can stop making threads about it now.

Nah, the threads can stop when the practice ends ;)  Sounds like that's pretty much up to you and others who do this sort of thing.  Just takes up legit player and Dev time having to figure out a way to deal with y'all, but ultimately you're in the best position to make it stop.

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This is a silly suggestion.  Alt farming does not take anything away from pvp, if anything it adds to it by giving those on chaos more opportunity to kill because the farmers have to pick up their alts somewhere predictable.   I remember having great fun killing alt farmers at the landing.  Not to mention the added revenue to the game from the additional premium accounts.  As always, these type of suggestions take someones perceived annoyance, in this case seeing someone on death tabs they don't think deserves to be there, and instead of providing a solution that helps the game grow it works to exclude and diminish other player's fun based on the principle that this faction of pvpers knows best.  More playing the game and less playing the devs, plz.

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On 12/8/2017 at 11:35 AM, Nappy said:

Hmmm, perhaps a simple cool down that a Freedom player won't get the affinity in their skill list until they have played a certain amount of time on Chaos since killing someone. So they kill someone, stay on the server for a day and then the affinity is available to them if a freedom character. Not perfect, perhaps a nod in the right direction?

 

~Nappy

In thinking about this a bit more and reading the feedback others have posted about it, I've realized the kingdom part of this doesn't even matter. If we have a PVP kill cool down where you can't leave the server via ship, suicide, death or portal for x number of actual online minutes preserved even over server restarts, then essentially this could be a blanket option applied to every member of every kingdom whenever they make a PVP kill.

 

No need to center out Freedomers at all and PMK's don't have to worry about policing themselves, game mechanics can help instead.

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After 5 pages of post, why just not make it a timer between when you can gain an affinity from the same player, but I really struggle to see how any coding will prevent what is happening.

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20 minutes ago, Kadore said:

After 5 pages of post, why just not make it a timer between when you can gain an affinity from the same player, but I really struggle to see how any coding will prevent what is happening.

You are right. The latest proposals don't eliminate the original problem, they just make it less easy to get away with it because people will have much more time to react when something like this happens.

 

Root cause is still human behaviour and no solution here fixes that problem even GM intervention because people will use VPN's etc to make that even harder to catch.

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3 hours ago, Kadore said:

After 5 pages of post, why just not make it a timer between when you can gain an affinity from the same player, but I really struggle to see how any coding will prevent what is happening.

 

Well, it -could- do a better job of identifying legitimate PVP players. The 20 fight threshold is silly low and should be increased, but why stop with fight? For instance, the code could be configured to only award affinities if the following is true of the killed player:

 

- 70+ fight

- 30+ body

- 25+ strength

- 50+ in a stance skill

- 50+ in a weapon skill

- Total earned skill levels of X.

 

The idea is to "prove" that the defeated player is a legitimately-played, decently-useful PVP account, with a lot of hours in it. (Perhaps there should be a title to go along with it, so a player can easily see when they've left the realm of affinity-protection.)

 

Yes, it's still exploitable, but it would be a -lot- harder. You'd almost need to buy accounts to use for farming, and spamming multiple farming accounts would be very hard.

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2 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Well, it -could- do a better job of identifying legitimate PVP players. The 20 fight threshold is silly low and should be increased, but why stop with fight? For instance, the code could be configured to only award affinities if the following is true of the killed player:

 

- 70+ fight

- 30+ body

- 25+ strength

- 50+ in a stance skill

- 50+ in a weapon skill

- Total earned skill levels of X.

 

The idea is to "prove" that the defeated player is a legitimately-played, decently-useful PVP account, with a lot of hours in it. (Perhaps there should be a title to go along with it, so a player can easily see when they've left the realm of affinity-protection.)

 

Yes, it's still exploitable, but it would be a -lot- harder. You'd almost need to buy accounts to use for farming, and spamming multiple farming accounts would be very hard.

I dunno, I used to talk to folks who ran multiple pvp toons at once, no matter "what" skill/stat based measuring stick is being used, it's always able to be looped around. It will take either fresh ideas or we can go back to ignoring it like we the community (devs) have for over a half decade ;)

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6 hours ago, madnezz said:

This is a silly suggestion.  Alt farming does not take anything away from pvp, if anything it adds to it by giving those on chaos more opportunity to kill because the farmers have to pick up their alts somewhere predictable.   I remember having great fun killing alt farmers at the landing.  Not to mention the added revenue to the game from the additional premium accounts.  As always, these type of suggestions take someones perceived annoyance, in this case seeing someone on death tabs they don't think deserves to be there, and instead of providing a solution that helps the game grow it works to exclude and diminish other player's fun based on the principle that this faction of pvpers knows best.  More playing the game and less playing the devs, plz.

 

The original intention of the mechanic is balancing the risk of losing an affinity vs. the reward of gaining an affinity, thereby adding to the decision of whether or not to engage in a fight.  If people instead just farm alts for affinities -->  No risk, assured reward.

All reward isn't the problem.  The problem is it makes the mechanic now imbalanced when used correctly (a legit fight) since you have the risk of losing an affinity, when the reward is no greater than if you had just farmed an alt at no risk.

 

Any mechanic that imposes penalty while only providing a reward best gotten another way is a negative reinforcement.  Pretty sure negative reinforcement, like adding a penalty to an action, is used to stop behaviors.

 

  • For instance, if you open the oven, you might get burned but you also might get a cookie.  That's worth opening the oven because you want the cookie.
  • Now the devs put a jar of freshly baked cookies next to the oven.  If you use the jar, there's no chance you're going to get burned, and you're assured a fresh cookie.
    • It's incentive to stop using the oven and only use the jar, since the reward is the same but the oven has the risk of burning added to it.
  • The oven has no positives over the jar, but only the added negative of getting burned (losing an affinity).
    •   It's reinforcing not using the oven by adding the negative to it.

That's what alt-farming does to the original mechanic, and how it affects pvp.  I think.

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when you kill an alt, the alt has to get 1001 [or more] rank before regenerating it's next affintity.
You lose rank when dying, it also decays if you aren't pvping for a long time, capping hota pillar/tower/killing a player.
This would yes infact add more chance to "stop" alt farmers because they'd rely on tower capping or killing real players to gain back rank.
Anybody looking to pvp wouldn't mind this, since rank would come almost naturally. 
And if an alt slays another alt, [premium only] then that alt lost it's affintity and you don't get anywhere [atleast my tired mind thinks so?]
So basically, this would render alts a one time farm, not a reoccuring farm. Which would help CUT back.
i think alongside some skill adjustments such as 50fs, this can deter the reward/effort over alt farming but still keep reward/effort for pvp.

And if I'm correct with this, and my tired mind isn't playing tricks. Then no pmk has to police and no kingdom has to be excluded from playing and getting affinities, aslong as 1001 rank is there for regeneration. [Could be 1001, i think]

and this isn't to keep GAINING affinties, it's only to REGENERATE them after it gains its FIRST affinity and you go down to 0.

This is the only way you allow chaos players to "stop" affinity farmers but legit pvpers can just gain. 
Alt farmers rely on regeneration.


Also, new prem accounts will not Transfer affinties OR GAIN RANK for the first month. This will make affinties cost the original price, not 2s.
@Nappy @Retrograde




Just so im 100000000000000000000% clear. This does not stop you GAINING affinites in pvp, only REGENERATING if you're at Zero affinties without 1001 rank.

Edited by Mclavin

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5 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

Well, it -could- do a better job of identifying legitimate PVP players. The 20 fight threshold is silly low and should be increased, but why stop with fight? For instance, the code could be configured to only award affinities if the following is true of the killed player:

 

- 70+ fight

- 30+ body

- 25+ strength

- 50+ in a stance skill

- 50+ in a weapon skill

- Total earned skill levels of X.

 

The idea is to "prove" that the defeated player is a legitimately-played, decently-useful PVP account, with a lot of hours in it. (Perhaps there should be a title to go along with it, so a player can easily see when they've left the realm of affinity-protection.)

 

Yes, it's still exploitable, but it would be a -lot- harder. You'd almost need to buy accounts to use for farming, and spamming multiple farming accounts would be very hard.

i got 20-70fs in 2 days (when bison was in every will)
not hard get all that in 2 weeks and now only cost 2s

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So this is probs best idea I've seen so far but it wouldn't stop people buying alts still and doing it for the first time. Just prevent repeat offenses.

Edited by Iberis

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well battlerank for one

 

you kill someone take there affinity they kill you and can't get a affinity?

 

broken before you out of the gate even

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3 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

well battlerank for one

 

you kill someone take there affinity they kill you and can't get a affinity?

 

broken before you out of the gate even


no, i might not be clear cause im tired/gargling out sentences.

You can ALWAYS gain the affinity from a kill, but if you're at Zero affinites [an alt would be] you do not Regenerate a NEW affinity after losing the one you first generated, without getting 1001 rank first. 

Is that sentence broken? I'm not sure, in my tired mind it makes sense. You essentially make a alt a one time slay for affinity. 

Edited by Mclavin

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truthfully I would rather see the dev's spend there time fixing all the bugs and maybe catching up before minor changes that are not game breaking in slightest are pushed to the top, catapults have been broken for months now for example

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Well, that might apply to you, but it doesn't apply to those who are here +1ing and wanting change. We all have things we want pushed up, I want a kingdom robe to show, you want missions to be fixed, minor or big, this is a suggestion thread for whenever the devs want to get around to doing it and I answered your claim about it being broken due to not being able to "gain" for the kill. 

Edited by Mclavin

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Well battlerank not so easy for the average person to get, not everyone participates in capping towers, running hota.

 

If they are not fortunate to get an arrow shot or hit on someone defending or raiding a deed, they may never get any battlerank, so you want them to never regain there affinity?

 

New players that start out on chaos, get killed dozens of times, eventually either quit wurm or head to freedom, how are they ever going to get that affinity replaced?

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