Mclavin

Disable affinity stealing involving freedomers *Updated*

178 posts in this topic

On 12/5/2017 at 8:17 AM, Mclavin said:

This will be -1'd by certain people looking to abuse a system which is in place to reward pvpers.


Never "abused" (your words) the system, only have 1 affinity. No intention of obtaining more...

PVP has always stated "risk vs reward", right? Well, going to pvp lands (even if just to farm affinities) is putting yourself at risk for a reward.

So, where is the problem? And, also, how does it affect you, a pvp player? It's supposedly PVE players abusing this, so what does it matter to you that some "carebear" is skilling a little bit faster than you are over on the Freedom servers? Your blanket suggestion in the OP suggests that this is only a problem because of PVE players, while you apparently seem fine with the fact that pvpers (your fellow servers players, including your enemies) have the ability to farm affinities, which directly affects your gameplay. Seems kinda backwards.

 

 

On 12/5/2017 at 8:17 AM, Mclavin said:

Chaos should be about getting into groups and going out legit and earning your affiinties.

Affinities weren't implemented to "strengthen the bond between pvp players" and "earning", or whatever reason you've concocted. They were simply made to be incentive to try out PVP in a game mostly populated by PVEers. Same goes for HOTA statues and any other "special features" that the pvp side of this game offers.

And it's working. It got fresh blood (however temporary) on your PVP server for you to kill and loot (affinities, if nothing else).


 


 

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I thought I'd dig in the time machine a lil bit.
2011:

Here's a similiar thread about chewing on alts for fs gains :)

Stated as legit by chaos bois in 2014.

I could have kept going but I wasn't that bored. Remind me to stop laughing when pvp says they'll police themselves. I don't bear a grudge against anyone. I just note what I've seen done and posted and played out. Best humor I've seen in ages, thanks all :)

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idk what you want to say with that splingsplong

Edited by Quicktor

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5 hours ago, Pingpong said:

I could have kept going but I wasn't that bored. Remind me to stop laughing when pvp says they'll police themselves. I don't bear a grudge against anyone. I just note what I've seen done and posted and played out. Best humor I've seen in ages, thanks all :)


Same reason we don't have alts running around like the MRC days now, if other kingdoms use them then deeds get hit. 
PMK's have had more order among themselves in the past 9 months than in the last 3 years, but you're not here to see that so I laugh at that too tbh. 

I know of a kingdom already that has told a member that he will be kicked if he affinity farms, so yeah.

And all your posts about the past suggestions wanting change doesn't speak down on this topic, it speaks for it. A echo of the same call, stop the abuse. 

Edited by Mclavin

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6 hours ago, As_I_Decay said:


Never "abused" (your words) the system, only have 1 affinity. No intention of obtaining more...

PVP has always stated "risk vs reward", right? Well, going to pvp lands (even if just to farm affinities) is putting yourself at risk for a reward.

So, where is the problem? And, also, how does it affect you, a pvp player? It's supposedly PVE players abusing this, so what does it matter to you that some "carebear" is skilling a little bit faster than you are over on the Freedom servers? 


I mean just read this sentence and it answers itself. 

 

Quote

put yourself at risk for a reward

 

Quote

so what does it matter to you that some "carebear" is skilling a little bit faster than you are over on the Freedom servers


Because I put myself at risk for the reward, so no "carebear" should be able to come over and abuse the system with Alts to get the reward, without risk and leave. Thanks for reading.

And if you've never abused, guess what, this 100% doesn't affect you. So well done.

Edited by Mclavin

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So nobody still hasn't presented an argument that sticks, as to why it's ok to affinity farm by the way. Still waiting. Until then stop the alt abuse, stop the system abuse. 

All I see is essays from people with the greed mentality of "we deserve this option", im sorry but you don't. If people want to come over and get affinites, nobody will stop you. Join a group, they will help you be prepared for whats needed. Nobody, not even the people who play on chaos should be able to alt farm. Champions can't even kill an alt to get champ points, guess what, champ points do NOTHING. Affinties do more, yet you can get banned/removed from champ for slaying an alt and gaining a champ point lol. 

I'm perfectly fine with rules being placed to make sure that alts cannot be farmed for affinties and make the minimum fight skill 70, since 70 is the requirement for pvp anyway.
If this ensures that nobody from any server can get an advantage of "alt slaying"

Nobody should farm, it isn't a freedom vs chaos issue, some of you freedom fighters are coming into the thread "bla bla you think you deserve it more than us?!?!?" no, i think people who particapate the way it should be, will get the reward. And It was me who suggested the freedom Affinity gains from skilling, so whilst you're all crying about "you feel more deserving than us!" I'm the one pointing out solutions to problems, and you're pointing out problems because it affects your own personal greed. So yeah, if you can't come with a solution, don't come at all. 

Edited by Mclavin

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I really appreciate your willingness post your thoughts mclavin so one question that I've not seen answered yet in this thread, what makes a pvper, what makes a pver, and why do the folks from pvp land get to decide the difference? My understanding is that once a toon cross the border all bets are off. So long as it's game legal it's legal. What I am hearing from my side of the border is "Oh no, a person who plays mostly on pve is getting something that was reserved mostly for pvp players/exploiters/whatever you want to call them. Suddenly this is a burning issue". Do I think it's silly/stupid/gamey to slaughter alts? Of course. Has it been done by all kingdoms since I joined wurm? Ayup.

So now we're back to that sticky question "What makes a player a pvp or pver person?" 

And why do people (pvp) who stand to benefit the most get to call the shots with shutting it down from the majority of players (pve). Would I trade affinity farming for a closed border? Sure. You farm alts and I'll farm everything else on freedom. Affinity pick up, hota, moonmetals, home server nerfs: all designed to bring pve to pvp. All failed. I sometimes wonder if chaos is just the failed elevation of freedom.  Oh and calling people with other opinions greedy doesn't invalidate them, it's just....your opinion :P

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How's does or why does pvper or pver apply or matter to oblivionreaperi, oblivionreaperii, oblivionreaperxi, it doesnt. Why would this stop pvers coming over to pvp and get affinities the way they should be gained? Because I'm suggesting to remove the ability to farm alts? Placing control in the pmks hands leaves it up to that pmk. You could very well be invited in to Slay your alts, but another pmk can make that pmk pay for it. 

 

The best accounts are exploited on freedom btw. 

 

Control outside of gm rules or input gm rules, idc. 

 

It isn't suddenly a burning issue, you were kind enough to bring up topics through the years that touched on it. The old team failed to stop it, but the new approach this team makes, i hope a revisit will come with a change. 

 

Also you were very quick to go +1 the skilling for affinities idea, which btw would make controlling farming on chaos non important other than for not letting a system be abused, since you will have your playstyle garner the rewards that my playstyle also gives out. 

 

I've said many times, pvers can come across and pvp with whom they like, we have a bunch, who determines who a pvper or pver is? The person themselves and how they identify thier gamestyle. If you live on a non pvp server, then you can identify yourself based on that server gamestyle. I've never really thought it matters.

 

The whole topic is simular to the epic titles a while back, why should those who had a 'faster' time skilling get the benefits of the title, even tho they're using the same gameplay as the other side, oh because 2x faster in getting somthing made that reward feel crap if given out easily. Same how I and many others feel about these farmers. 

 

Again, you should have the chance to gain affinities playing on the server and style you want, pve or pvp. Cooking is ok, but you can't stack affinities and they are temporary. I rather see pvers rewarded with true gameplay as it is meant to be, and pvpers rewarded with that style of gameplay.  And nobody needing to go alt farm to cheat thier way to the reward. 

 

Thanks for the question and train of thought. 

 

Typed on phone I will edit when back at computer

 

 

Edited by Mclavin

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+1 for the idea, but needs a better implementation, people will just join JK or ebo and then kill hots characters.

 

Better solution would be to have some kind of server transfer cooldown after being on a deathtab. For example you have to be online for at least 4 hours total after getting a kill before you can transfer off the server. This will still give people the option to buy and sell affinities but will reintroduce the risk, right now people just kill alts 10 tiles from the server border where there is zero risk of actual death.

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I like the idea of having 2 separate systems, one for PvP and one for PvE. Affinities (10% per level, max 5, more dramatic swings in power) and Inclinations (5% per level, max 10, more slow and grindy), maybe. They only work in their own domain and have appropriate ways of gaining them.

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14 hours ago, DOE said:

yall see that body affinity I sold? xD

 

Yeah we certainly saw it at LoA...

1e56ef3235.png

 

7c3ec6feb1.png

 

 

Quote

I could have kept going but I wasn't that bored. Remind me to stop laughing when pvp says they'll police themselves. I don't bear a grudge against anyone. I just note what I've seen done and posted and played out. Best humor I've seen in ages, thanks all :)

 

Edited by Iberis
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I like the idea of turning all but one affinity off on Freedom while all affinities work on PVP servers. 

 

Greed is an interesting comment. Sometimes open to interpretation. Is the old "All scale, drake etc from an unique killing needs to be turned in to the JK Elders" a form of greed? (since it steals from others who earned it) or is it a form of "What's best for the kingdom" (decided by those who directly benefit?

 

~Nappy 

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PvP servers have gone up and down in interest and population so much over the years making this argument is hardly new, while affinity farming completely goes against the original intentions of the game, every time you try to hard code the game to control behavior it usually over time punishes those that did things in the correct manner.

 

So as I understand what is being proposed you wish to make the affinity system a complete perk tied to the ability to lose the reward in ( and I use the term loosely ) " fair combat ", I know some people have this Utopia mindset that Wurm pvp is a game that has fine ladies and gentlemen engaging in combat with no rules ever being abused and no way possible for people outside of their respective PMK's able to wheel and deal for affinities.

 

To me this whole thread is pretty much the same finger pointing about who's greedy and the usual attempt to get more people over to the pvp servers, but maybe I'm failing to get the point.

 

With all kingdoms with the exception of BL being Player created kingdoms, police the game yourself if disagree with what's going on.

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16 minutes ago, Kadore said:

With all kingdoms with the exception of BL being Player created kingdoms, police the game yourself if disagree with what's going on.

 

If some of our suggestions go through like what Mclovin suggested for example then yes we can police it.

 

But how do we police alt affinity farming abuse from freedomers that cross onto a server border kill their alts then jump back across quickly. We can't camp every part of every border - not to mention we have better things to do then trying to prevent freedomers from exploiting. This is why we are making these suggestion threads.

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I think anyone in this thread knows how to report an exploit.  I think anyone that has earned the affinities should be able to use them on chaos or freedom.  Perhaps make it if the person would not give you fight skill, you will not get an affinity from them.

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1 minute ago, Pashka said:

Perhaps make it if the person would not give you fight skill, you will not get an affinity from them.

You don't get fight skill or affinities from killing someone under 20.25 fs so that already happens.

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2 hours ago, Nappy said:

I like the idea of turning all but one affinity off on Freedom while all affinities work on PVP servers. 

 

Greed is an interesting comment. Sometimes open to interpretation. Is the old "All scale, drake etc from an unique killing needs to be turned in to the JK Elders" a form of greed? (since it steals from others who earned it) or is it a form of "What's best for the kingdom" (decided by those who directly benefit?

 

~Nappy 


Idk how a system that combines small things into bigger things to make them useable faster is a greed system. The kingdom gained from it and Also people who attended those slayings knew what was up, if you don't want to pitch your share towards a group effort, don't come and kill, pretty simple. How is it stealing if you're the one handing it over??. It was also the same system that got worldstar built in 5 days from the server opening, weeks ahead of any other kingdom. It doesn't even apply to what this topic/greed is. I don't even know why you're commenting on a groups loot system, a group that stayed together and continued that system with each other for years. 

Is rolling on the 15th rare longsword you currently own, just for owning it, better than letting somebody who needs it take? If no, then ok welcome to JKE loot system. Greed? 

 

Not wanting to change abuse because "I haven't got around to abusing that yet, that isnt fair" is greed mentality, People not wanting to change something because somebody else has abused it already, seems like a good way to run things, right. 
stop worrying about what x has got over you, it's no reason to stop good updates that better the game.

pretty sure thats the same mentality that stopped sotg changes for years.
 

Edited by Mclavin

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22 hours ago, Iberis said:

What if..

 

Affinities only worked on PVP enabled servers (Chaos & Epic)? So Freedomers could have as many as they liked but they would only give that boost to skill gain when on Chaos or Epic. Not only would this mean that people PVPing and living on Chaos would benefit because they can use the affinities they have earned and that were designed for PVP. It's also a reward for them for enduring the risk of living on a server that isn't "safe" like freedom is and may encourage more people in the longrun to live on Chaos (risk vs reward). Also having it so that affinities only worked on PVP servers would render affinity farming more or less pointless for freedomers that don't care about PVP or Chaos and never have any intention of living there. Certainly makes me feel like it won't be worth the effort if they are not getting anything from it.

Big +1

 

If any change are to be made, this is the best suggestion in this thread. It avoids the scenario where the people actively (ab)using the alt farming advantage would have an edge over people who never went for this alt farming method so they could grind faster on Freedom, while still allowing those who did to make use of their dozens of affinities by grinding on Chaos/Epic instead.

In addition, it would allow new people to get more affinities and have a chance to minmax just as much as those before them, and play on Chaos/Epic to make full use of it.

Right now a fair amount of resistance to the original idea is from people who would be on the losing end of potential minmax opportunities. Iberis' suggestion here would avoid that altogether.

 

It'll likely get a lot of backlash from some who farmed their affinities and feel like they wasted their money on them (including those who'd be fine with OP's change now that they have obtained enough affinities to have their big advantage anyway), but much like the old source crystal exploit for channeling (which didn't get fixed for way too long) causing the prices to be in the several silver range, it's clear that alt farming is an abuse and not to be expected to stay like it is indefinitely.

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4 hours ago, Fodder said:

 

It'll likely get a lot of backlash from some who farmed their affinities and feel like they wasted their money on them (including those who'd be fine with OP's change now that they have obtained enough affinities to have their big advantage anyway), but much like the old source crystal exploit for channeling (which didn't get fixed for way too long) causing the prices to be in the several silver range, it's clear that alt farming is an abuse and not to be expected to stay like it is indefinitely.

Nice forum alt :) After 4-6 years I find it really hard to believe it's not hear to stay. Especially after it's been raised in post after post and thread after thread. If someone else figures out how to do it better don't get sore, join in ;) The best bet imo to get this issue changed is to slaughter 25 alts a day until the wurm devs can't ignore it.

Each time the issue has been raised the person slaughtering the alts got the *'s they wanted and quit. Embarrassing the wurm devs does work and by simply showing them through actions how broken this is, you can force them to act :) If you like, keep track of the affinities gained by slaughtering alts each day and mail them in. Will it take some leg work? Sure. But no one in authority is immune from being embarrassed by how stupid this is and has been for years. Change is possible and good so long we don't punish only one part of the community.

Edited by Pingpong
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49 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

Nice forum alt :)

Thank you :) It allows me to share not-most popular opinions without losing friends over it and potentially treated like I'm "literally Hitler". Even the harmless opinion in this thread could've cost me 2-3 "friends", believe it or not :)

Edited by Fodder

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16 hours ago, Mclavin said:


Because I put myself at risk for the reward, so no "carebear" should be able to come over and abuse the system with Alts to get the reward, without risk and leave. Thanks for reading.

And if you've never abused, guess what, this 100% doesn't affect you. So well done.

The risk is that the carebear might get chopped down by you and your buddies while he/she's there. It's a "risk" as soon as they cross into Chaos.

But since you're so intent on segregating PVE from PVP (because one deserves things and one doesn't), then why not go back to completely separating Chaos from the rest of the PVE servers?

Oh, that's right.... Then you wouldn't be able to sell your HOTAs and there would be less servers to hunt uniques on.


 

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There is zero risk on east Coast, sorry buddy, your theory on how you think it is just isn't a reflection of how it is. 

 

And I'm fine with seperating clusters, I'm just realistic in what I ask for. Also selling items is fine, as long as alts aren't used to aquire them, freedom do have the option to not buy them, they can come over and try themselves. That's like saying don't sell rift items because it came from an event...... Lol

 

Go make a thread. 

 

And how am i segregating pve from pvp?? Because I dont want alts to be slain for perm skill gain rewards? Has nothing to do with pve or pvp, pvpers shouldn't alt farm either, there is no segeration, your just getting emotional because someone is saying this abuse is wrong, freedom feels the same, just a few that don't. Get over it. 

Edited by Mclavin
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Shocking to see people supporting breaking of rules. I wonder how many of them also advocate breaking the law in their respective countries. Clear lack of game ethics.

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remove chaos from freedom, prob solved?

 

Side note: I dislike the affin farming (just in case people wanted to know where I stood)

Edited by Brew

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