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Mclavin

Disable affinity stealing involving freedomers *Updated*

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17 minutes ago, tamat said:

i got 20-70fs in 2 days (when bison was in every will)
not hard get all that in 2 weeks and now only cost 2s

 

The weakness of my suggestion of raising the initial requirement isn't that it's easy to meet, but rather that however hard, once it's met it can then be farmed indefinitely.

 

But, from a "defense in depth" perspective, it doesn't need to completely fix the exploit to make the exploit more costly.

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12 minutes ago, JakeRivers said:

how are they ever going to get that affinity replaced?

Eat a pizza

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I am not sure if I like this new suggestion since my perspective was that affinity buyers were the issue, not people who prem their alts for affinities (Well maybe both but I was under the impression the former was more important). Plus I do not feel anyone farming their own alts is a serious problem, as much as those who buy them from other players. Or perhaps I am misguided about what we want to stop. Nevertheless...

 

Players who sell their affinities to someone else enable someone who wants an affinity with a safe way to obtain it at a low price. Instead, that person could find a legitimate route (actual pvp) and be lured by it. Perhaps they saw someone like Doctorchaos and his affinity army and wants to be like that... but is misguided about what pvp is. This person could be lured to trying it out and finding its not so bad. In this way buying affinities from someone else can be an issue.

 

Also, the affinity farmer doesn't need to wait for their affinities to regenerate. They can just prem again a new account for 2 silver, and get another affinity within an hour or so. Beats waiting for a recharge. I am of the opinion it solves nothing. Whereas the affinity seller sells it once, and probably gets a crap affinity next, and is stuck with it for the rest of his Wurm career, thus ending the problem.

 

No, I think what needs to be targetted is those obtaining the affinity: The buyers, the recipients. They can get as many affinities as they want. The one trully affecting the system. They enable sellers, or affinity farmers to exist. She system should prevent people from obtaining affinities from killing someone else for this, not the seller from obtaining a new one. This can only be stopped by preventing the transfer from happening. Increasing requirements for affinity transfers is a good thing in my eyes, as it has the unintentional bonus of helping newer players to have less to loose by trying PVP (believe it or not, I know people who's excuse for not going to chaos is loosing their affinity). If there is a system I'd support, that one is right on point.

Edited by Angelklaine

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I'd just like to point out that being able to stack 5 body affinities sure doesn't equal 1 pizza affinity :) Alt farming has and can provide a serious leg up over the "freedom affinity boost" that we currently have. There is a reason people do it. There is a reason people have done it for years. Anytime you see a wilder toon for sale with 4-5 stars on those stats you should compliment them on being so "lucky" when out pvping :P

Edited by Pingpong

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As this thread has turned into a running argument, I've locked it.

 

Pandalet (Assistant Lead Forum Moderator)

 

Edit: after review, I have unlocked this thread to allow the discussion to continue.  However, further derailing, trolling and general personal attacks may result in sanctions on the offenders, up to and including loss of forum privileges.  If you can't find a mature, constructive way to make your point, don't post.

Edited by Pandalet
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Thread open again, let's steer away from arguing and find the solution. Stay on topic, any trolling/things off topic will be reported and ignored until removed.

Also thank you Pandalet for re-opening. Sorry for my previous behavior. 

 

Edited by Mclavin
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On 12/10/2017 at 2:39 AM, Mclavin said:

when you kill an alt, the alt has to get 1001 [or more] rank before regenerating it's next affintity.
You lose rank when dying, it also decays if you aren't pvping for a long time, capping hota pillar/tower/killing a player.
This would yes infact add more chance to "stop" alt farmers because they'd rely on tower capping or killing real players to gain back rank.
Anybody looking to pvp wouldn't mind this, since rank would come almost naturally. 
And if an alt slays another alt, [premium only] then that alt lost it's affintity and you don't get anywhere [atleast my tired mind thinks so?]
So basically, this would render alts a one time farm, not a reoccuring farm. Which would help CUT back.
i think alongside some skill adjustments such as 50fs, this can deter the reward/effort over alt farming but still keep reward/effort for pvp.

And if I'm correct with this, and my tired mind isn't playing tricks. Then no pmk has to police and no kingdom has to be excluded from playing and getting affinities, aslong as 1001 rank is there for regeneration. [Could be 1001, i think]

and this isn't to keep GAINING affinties, it's only to REGENERATE them after it gains its FIRST affinity and you go down to 0.

This is the only way you allow chaos players to "stop" affinity farmers but legit pvpers can just gain. 
Alt farmers rely on regeneration.


Also, new prem accounts will not Transfer affinties OR GAIN RANK for the first month. This will make affinties cost the original price, not 2s.
@Nappy @Retrograde




Just so im 100000000000000000000% clear. This does not stop you GAINING affinites in pvp, only REGENERATING if you're at Zero affinties without 1001 rank.

 

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Let me start by saying I am in full support of changes to allowing someone to stack affinities on their main from a knarr full of alts.  However, the issue is not regenerating affinities.  The issue is how those affinities are gained by the player that does the slaying.

 

I don't know how battle rank works exactly, or even what my battle rank is at currently.  However, I'm no alt and I have been playing for over 3 years.  If I lose my affinity in battle, I should be able to get another one, regardless of my battle rank.  Same goes for any Freedomer that gets a new affinity in Thatching and decides they'd rather lose that affinity and take a chance on getting something more useful.

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I'm confused as to why alt farming is not beneficial to wurm?

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45 minutes ago, Wargasm said:

Let me start by saying I am in full support of changes to allowing someone to stack affinities on their main from a knarr full of alts.  However, the issue is not regenerating affinities.  The issue is how those affinities are gained by the player that does the slaying.

 

I don't know how battle rank works exactly, or even what my battle rank is at currently.  However, I'm no alt and I have been playing for over 3 years.  If I lose my affinity in battle, I should be able to get another one, regardless of my battle rank.  Same goes for any Freedomer that gets a new affinity in Thatching and decides they'd rather lose that affinity and take a chance on getting something more useful.


but tbf wargasm, you can just go cap a tower that's on the edge of your influence and bang, rank gained. Cap a hota pillar, kill a player. I would doubt you'd have a hard time doing the tasks which most of us do most days when we need to.
Would be cool if Chaos Missions gave rank aswell perhaps.

Edited by Mclavin

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17 minutes ago, Mclavin said:

but tbf wargasm, you can just go cap a tower that's on the edge of your influence and bang, rank gained. Cap a hota pillar, kill a player. I would doubt you'd have a hard time doing the tasks which most of us do most days when we need to.
Would be cool if Chaos Missions gave rank aswell perhaps.

 

It is a poor solution for a problem that DOES not exist.

 

How is someone ganking a few alts for affinitys affecting YOUR game play?

 

How is some freedomer with a warhammer affinity coming over to get it wiped affecting YOUR game play?

 

This no more affects my game play than bringing over epic accounts and giving them all 3x skill gain for there lost skills, it does not affect my game play and really does not matter.

 

And don't start on how this is breaking the rules because your group are no saints in that department.

 

I really am surprised this was reopened.

 

Edited by JakeRivers

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In order for something to work the new system would have to allow a hermit the ability of regenerating an affinity. No one should HAVE to kill a player or cap a tower and so on. These are all things perhaps you like to do or are able to do, but there have always been others that play chaos for a different reason. You may not like it or enjoy their play style but it does not take away from the fact that this is just one of those sandbox abilities and the moment you try and restrict it/technically removing the ability from freedom you can kiss wurm good bye.  

 

Now I know you mean well in terms of trying to limit the so called abuse but the system is going to also need to be allowed on freedom and not only chaos because this bonus was never restricted to chaos only. That's why I suggested continuous premium time something like 2 months prior premium to be eligible for a new affinity.  This has to work first and foremost for wurms advantage and not for top pvpers only. 

 

 

 

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Nobody should have to? It's a pvp server. A pvp system. They already require to get a kill to get a new affinity. I've read your point and I don't agree and you don't agree with mine, that's fine.
2 kingdoms find it a issue Maurzizo, it may not affect your personal gameplay or you may not feel the reward system is basically made undervalued, but we do. 

 

I think the kiss goodbye to wurm was very exagerated but I get your point. 

The very least out of the suggestions, 1 month cool down on generating affinity until you're out of trial/first months prem. Because 2s made this dumb.
But then if you don't want a mechanic that basically you can't find another answer for, to stop priest alts and god knows what else ABUSING THE SYSTEM, then you need an enforced rule, which is also hard.
Btw, champs can get banned/dechamped for killing an alt for an affinity, just because he gains 1 champ points which means Nothing under the current system. 
So I hope the affinity system which gives a perm skill gain boost, can be viewed as the same.

jake the questions you put forward were answered over and over in discord and here at some point. We get that you don't want it/ don't see it as an issue, but others do. 
the problem does exist because 2 kingdoms are complaining about it and as was pointed out earlier in the thread, through out time it was complained about.


Good/Bad feedback was left and ideas changed through out. This is a change that's needed sooner than later to stop more affinity abuse.

Either allow PMKs to police via certain kingdom restrictions, put in rank restrictions so it's used as meant to be or GM rule enforce alt farming.

Then release the freedom skilling affinities to allow freedom to gain with their own playstyle.

 

Edited by Mclavin

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1 hour ago, Mclavin said:

They already require to get a kill to get a new affinity.

 

No they don't.  If I want to get rid of my useless Warhammer affinity, I shouldn't have to pvp to get a new one after I let someone kill me to get rid of mine.

 

Now, having more than one affinity?  Yes, you should have to pvp for that.

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thanks for feed back war, agree to disagree there.

jake, you can keep saying it doesn't, we feel it does. moving on

Alt farming for affinties takes away from the legit reward from pvp. Those who are not pvping atm will not see it that way, ofc.
Shouldn't really be rolling any dice for 2s a pop for a random affinity, sounds like you're paying for a loot crate. maybe we can introduce those, maybe we can get some  random chance on glimmer weps for 5s a pop :D
feel like we just touched on a important thought there, thanks sharing opinion.

Edited by Mclavin

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As is my wont, I got to wondering about A how this topic got reopened (doesn't really matter) and B a little something I like to call the pvp mindset quandary.

Situation: Jon rolls a new alt and skills it up to 70fs on freedom while playing his main on chaos. He finds that his alt which he never had plans to use much has a large metal shield affinity (or cool stat aff) *_*!!!!! So he contacts his friend bob and asks for him to drop the alt over at the landing, for example. Now his alt is freedom kingdom and John is a pmk so he slaughters his alt and gains fs and affinity and after a bit invites his alt to the kingdom. Is it a win for Jon? Yes. Is it good for Jon's kingdom? Yes. Is it pvp? As much as freedom slaughtering their alts. Do we see anyone complaining from wild about such doings? No. Can anyone prove it was non legit pvp or some other bannable offense? Nope.

So all is well and good and everyone walks away happy. Until people from freedom realize that they too can do this and suddenly shock and horror ring out!

My concern: What's good for the goose should be good for the gander :)

I feel like this thread has simply pointed out how to influence devs and change wurm if you don't like what other folks are doing. Oh and I can't see so well because my gas mask clogs up each time I try and view this thread :P

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It's a pvp reward system, people want to see that returned to what it should be.
You can come up with how it's unfair but when the stories are swept away and we're left with the bare bones of it all, players shouldn't be abusing a system to go back to freedom and get a perm skill gain from killing alts,

avoiding the risk of the real pvp/gear loss/skill loss/death over those that do take that risk. 
We must be stupid, pvping how it's meant to be, getting affinties how it's suppose to be done. Wow, bunch of idiots aren't we :D
I don't know in what story this is fair. And stories are great, we all love made up stories and hypotheticals.


I think the thread has pointed out the greed mindset behind some players heads and how they're happy to compromise somebody elses achivements on a system made for pvp, but are not happy to hurt their own gains, even tho they live on a server which doesn't have this system.

But then the same people went and +1'd the "get affinities from skilling" system, which I came up wiith but STILL don't want to hurt their future of abusing the chaos system.
So it's ok to allow affinties to be gained from a Freedom playstyle, skilling and doing what freedom do and getting a reward for it.
But it's not ok to stop abuse of the chaos system, where you're suppose to be rewarded for the pvp. 
how is +1 for 1 ok and -1 for the other ok? You want a reward system on freedom but want to keep chaos system abused? Seems like you got issues outside the apparent issues you have with this suggestion.

On top of that, they already allowed affinity meals, should they stack? yes if you find two different meal types that give the same affintity or w/e

Chaos is not happy, it's our system yet we're suppose to shutup and get along with it just so tourists can come over and get perm skill gains without the risk. no.

think problem is accounts with this kind of affinity gains/skill gains because of alt farming reasons should be the focus. 

https://www.niarja.com/skill_compare/Rocklobstar


Just a reminder, I get banned/removed from champ if I kill an alt for a champ point. Which does nothing. Affinities give skill boost. Whats worse here?

 

Edited by Mclavin

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28 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

 

Situation: Jon rolls a new alt and skills it up to 70fs on freedom while playing his main on chaos. He finds that his alt which he never had plans to use much has a large metal shield affinity (or cool stat aff) *_*!!!!! So he contacts his friend bob and asks for him to drop the alt over at the landing, for example. Now his alt is freedom kingdom and John is a pmk so he slaughters his alt and gains fs and affinity and after a bit invites his alt to the kingdom. Is it a win for Jon? Yes. Is it good for Jon's kingdom? Yes. Is it pvp? As much as freedom slaughtering their alts. Do we see anyone complaining from wild about such doings? No. Can anyone prove it was non legit pvp or some other bannable offense? Nope.

 

Ok so it's *really* clear, how is this any different then what you object to with "freedomers"?

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You say this is unfair because freedomers are prem'ing up 2s accounts and ganking the affinity, is it just as unfair that for a mere handful of silvers you can have a instant sermon group? 

 

 

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no we can disable that aswell if you want. Thats another topic tho. 

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Funny how the account you hold up as a major culprit is one that would still be on Chaos risking his affinities if it weren't for real abuse of the game's workings...

 

That aside, if I want to murder my alt (or alts) in order to make proper use of an affinity going to waste on their account I should be able to do so. For any number of my alts that I have paid for. I don't spend money on armour or weapons or affinity meals that I then cannot use, why is this different?

 

If I want to take an ill advised 3 month holiday skipping across Chaos and potentially have the good fortune to happen upon a stray full time pvper and win, I should get the benefit of that, without having to chain myself to a pmk, or go HoTS.

 

All that I can see here is that certain elements of the Chaos population suddenly feel a bit insecure and worried people don't see them as some sort of superior beings deserving of special treatment. But that might just be me...

I just really do not understand why another player having a slightly faster skill gain than you is so threatening. Nothing a bit of grinding or, vynora forbid, buying an affinity wouldn't solve.

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Quote

I just really do not understand why another player having a slightly faster skill gain than you is so threatening


If somebody earned the affinties the way it should be I'm not threatened I respect that. 

 

Quote

if I want to murder my alt (or alts) in order to make proper use of an affinity going to waste on their account I should be able to do so

no you shouldnt. 

I don't get how asking your friend/logging around spy prevention to get something you otherwise probably wouldn't get is ok. 
Sounds very abusive to me. Abuse that must stop.


@Budda 

Maurz posted another suggestion which seems fair.

If there was an ongoing premium time needed to continue to generate an affinity then wurm benefits

Quote

If there was an ongoing premium time needed to continue to generate an affinity then wurm benefits
As of right now you dont need a running premium time
You start a new account and you get an affinity in a few days you shouod have a running premium of 2 months before you can lose itfor starters and then continue a 2 months prem uptime to continue to gain affinities at the normal rate

Ok but do you see how my suggestion has nothing at all to do with who is in power

 

Edited by Mclavin

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The more I think about this the more I think about it like a game design question. Where do the devs want this game to go?

 

On the one hand we have the warrior class asking for a tweak that benefits their game play while reducing the game play of others who have a different style of play.

 

On the other hand we have the other classes, people who just like living on a dangerous server, those who don't want to seek out danger but don't mind being in danger should it arrive. Is their game play any less valuable? It isn't in terms of premium time.

 

More importantly in the time period it mimics, warriors were a minority class. A society needed to function in order to support it's military people. If you look at where Wurm is today it seems like the warrior class dominates on the PVP servers and as a result the servers are slowing moving to their mindset. Part of this is the lack of a viable role for the non-warrior classes on PVP servers. Merchants are really a big deal and the whole needing supplies to continue a war effort doesn't really have a role either. Warriors truly can operate without any help from supporting services.

 

The problem is that it's the other classes that have the best potential for recruiting new players who may one day decide to become warriors. 

 

Something for the game designers to carefully consider if they haven't already.

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1 hour ago, Nappy said:

The more I think about this the more I think about it like a game design question. Where do the devs want this game to go?

 

On the one hand we have the warrior class asking for a tweak that benefits their game play while reducing the game play of others who have a different style of play.

no the warrior class gave the suggestion for Freedom Grind Affinities, where rare rolls would also give a chance to grant an affinity in which you were doing at the time.
This would mean harvesting those farms wouldn't just give you a wasted rare corn, but also an affinity in either farming or the tool you were using. 
It isn't a tweak that benefits our gameplay, it's a tweak that stops abuse. If anything I am at the maximum benefit under alt farming because I have deeds near the freedom isles starter points and I can slay in complete safety, i don't. But then why should a player who decides not to do something morally wrong then have to pvp the correct way with all the risk when rob and tom and come over with a boat of alts? I'm all for gaining affinities, aslong as it involved that players gamestyle and not using alts to minimise danger of risk for maxmimum chance of reward.. so +1 affinities whilst skilling, cooking and pvping. 

 

On the other hand we have the other classes, people who just like living on a dangerous server, those who don't want to seek out danger but don't mind being in danger should it arrive. Is their game play any less valuable? It isn't in terms of premium time.

yet if a player can't afford to abuse alts, how is it fair to them? You're saying we should all have a chance at something, but you do. Anybody can sail over and come to chaos. 
you don't need to accept abuse of a system just to make things fair. Hense the freedom grind for affinties, to better fit different playstyle.
not to mention you already have cooking.

 

 

More importantly in the time period it mimics, warriors were a minority class. A society needed to function in order to support it's military people. If you look at where Wurm is today it seems like the warrior class dominates on the PVP servers and as a result the servers are slowing moving to their mindset. Part of this is the lack of a viable role for the non-warrior classes on PVP servers. Merchants are really a big deal and the whole needing supplies to continue a war effort doesn't really have a role either. Warriors truly can operate without any help from supporting services.

I don't get how this is relevant to abuse of affinity farming, but TC has just as many builders/crafters as it does pvpers and we have many applicants looking to come over and simply to build in a more dangerous enviroment where they feel roads, deeds and items have more use and at the same time the enviorment offers a zing of danger. Even tho they may not directly fight, they will be protected by 'warriors' in return and even further, still rewarded with armors/weapons pvpers use, incase their creation comes under attack or they need to defend themselves. 

They also get access to free enchantments for their tools and we also reward those with special mm tools. So there is an incentive to play away from freedom, even if it isn't directly tied to holding a sword and slaying players.

 

The problem is that it's the other classes that have the best potential for recruiting new players who may one day decide to become warriors. ~

That's great, but let's not abuse affinity farming to get there.


 

Something for the game designers to carefully consider if they haven't already.

 

Edited by Mclavin

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given that it's not 100% possible to remove alt farming i'll +1 anything that helps curb it without harming legitimate players

 

removing freedom kingdom from the affinity equation is a good start for the freedom cluster as there isn't more than one template kingdom.  doesn't help epic, but other than one person that sold up there isn't a history of alt abuse

 

dunno if it's been said as i mainly skimmed these 8 pages but i'd support adding 21bc as a requirement for affinity transfer as in 21bc and 20.25 fs combined not one or the other.  doesn't stop anyone by any means but at least makes it more annoying

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