Allow more use of queueing system

[Roccandil 959]

38 minutes ago, Hailene said:

It is one thing to make suggestions that compliment the mechanics within a game. It is an entirely different matter to change the foundation of a game.

 

The game already has a nice queueing system that works well for crafting, and I suggested extending that to other actions types. Is that really changing the foundation of the game?

 

I do want to revisit your imping mini-game comment. Real choices make for good gameplay, but once I choose to start imping (instead of doing something else), choice goes out the window; the way forward has no choices, just rote clicking.

 

I'd thus recommend that any improvement of the imping "mini-game" involve choices. For example, one that comes to mind for armor is increasing QL at expense of weight. We have that choice now writ large in armor type, but theoretically, we could also marginally improve QL/DR by thickening up the armor.

 

Perhaps decreasing weight at the expense of increased damage taken would be another interesting imping choice. For a weapon, maybe decrease weight/damage to speed up the attack timer.

[Hailene 362]

Basically anything that turns the game into a single click and wait (without large penalties like for leveling) will never, never sit well with the community. 

 

Invalidating the utility crucial and difficult to attain skills or characteristics (like mind logic) will never sit well with th3 community.

 

I have been a fan of customizing weapons and armor for particular bonusea (and equal penalties). Gives us impers more stuff to do.

[Roccandil 959]

1 hour ago, Hailene said:

Basically anything that turns the game into a single click and wait (without large penalties like for leveling) will never, never sit well with the community. 

 

Invalidating the utility crucial and difficult to attain skills or characteristics (like mind logic) will never sit well with th3 community.

 

I have been a fan of customizing weapons and armor for particular bonusea (and equal penalties). Gives us impers more stuff to do.

 

It isn't about single-clicking the game, it's about choices. Clicking to communicate a gameplay decision is desirable (am I going to create a helmet or a sword?), whereas rote clicking to maintain a decision is not (yeah, I wanna keep doing the same thing I've been doing for past hour). When I start imping, the only real decision left is when to stop, which is an indicator that the imping clicks have minimal gameplay value.

 

Clearly, however, the existing community and the developers are hardened around defense of rote clicking. I find that interesting, if nothing else. Is it a fear that if people could queue up a few actions and leave the game for just a few minutes, they might just leave the game completely? If so, that's ironic, because in attempting to force potential players to do rote clicking to hold their attention, you're losing people.

 

Nevertheless, another way to fix this is not to remove the clicking, but to remove the "rote-ness". Bottom line, imping is -boring-.

 

Sigh. I'm amazed at you people.

[Hailene 362]

21 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

. Is it a fear that if people could queue up a few actions and leave the game for just a few minutes, they might just leave the game completely?

 

You would be turning the game into a different game. Go play an incremental idle game.

 

21 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

If so, that's ironic, because in attempting to force potential players to do rote clicking to hold their attention, you're losing people.

 

The people we would be losing are people that want something else.

 

It's like walking into a dessert shop and saying there's too much cream and icing on the cake. That instead you can replace the cake and icing with meat And grill it...you could even say more people prefer steam over cake.

 

Great. But people walking into a dessert shop would vastly prefer a cake over a steak.

 

So if you want steak, go play an idle game and let us enjoy our cake.

 

21 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Bottom line, imping is -boring-. 

 

Bottom line, you don't like imping. Some of us like it. That's why we play the game.

 

21 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 I'm amazed at you people.

 

The only thing that is amazing is your persistence in trying to transform the game into an entirely different game and are surprised that the player base has such a negative reaction.

 

Puzzling is why you stick around when there are already other games around with what you want.

 

I do not know if it is from arrogance, naivety, or plain ignorance that you can't fathom people liking different things than you.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Hailene

[Roccandil 959]

18 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

You would be turning the game into a different game. Go play an incremental idle game.

 

Allowing players to queue regular and imping actions like creation and continue actions would not turn Wurm into a different game.

 

18 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

 

The people we would be losing are people that want something else.

 

 

It's like walking into a dessert shop and saying there's too much cream and icing on the cake. That instead you can replace the cake and icing with meat And grill it...you could even say more people prefer steam over cake.

 

Great. But people walking into a dessert shop would vastly prefer a cake over a steak.

 

So if you want steak, go play an idle game and let us enjoy our cake.

 

Wurm is already an idle game. I leave my priest to regen Faith naturally while I do things with my main, and occasionally pop in to give her a few prayers and enchant something.

 

All the same, allowing more actions to be managed by the creation/continue queueing button would -not- turn Wurm into a game you could walk away from for hours and come back to see how your skills are levelling.

 

Note also that rote clicking is mental idleness. There's nothing to think about; just click away. Rote clicking disguises gameplay idleness that already exists in Wurm.

 

18 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

 

Bottom line, you don't like imping. Some of us like it. That's why we play the game.

 

That impresses me. I'd be curious to know how many Wurmians actually do play the game -for- the existing imping "mini-game", and not in spite of it.

 

18 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

 

The only thing that is amazing is your persistence in trying to transform the game into an entirely different game and are surprised that the player base has such a negative reaction.

 

Puzzling is why you stick around when there are already other games around with what you want.

 

Mmm, some games have some things I like, and other have others. I'd probably need to make my own to have everything I wanted in one package. I've certainly learned a great deal about what I would and wouldn't like from Wurm, however (which is one of the reasons I started playing it in the first place).

 

18 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

I do not know if it is from arrogance, naivety, or plain ignorance that you can't fathom people liking different things than you.

 

I can't fathom people not only defending repetitive tasks, but also desiring to impose that on others.

 

No one's forcing anyone to use the crafting window; you can use the right-click context menu or keybinds all day long if you want to. If we could queue more action types via that window, that would still be true, but right now players who would prefer to use the crafting window for other actions are forced to use the clickier methods.

 

That's a problem, and the attitude I see here is even more of a problem. I'd prefer to see Wurm be more successful, but you all are hurting it.

[Ratlin 79]

11 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

That's a problem, and the attitude I see here is even more of a problem. I'd prefer to see Wurm be more successful, but you all are hurting it.

No trying to turn every title into a AAA game is not good, Wurm is a niche product that has survived for what 14 years like this, just because it's not competing with WoW for a share of it's target audience doesn't mean it isn't successful, just because we want the game to hold true to the past 14 years doesn't mean were hurting it.

 

It's just horses for courses as we say where i come from ... this horse isn't capable of running on the course you think it should be running on.

 

Not that the game isn't in desperate need of revising, updating, and adding to ..... i don't think there isn't anyone who would argue that it doesn't.

 

But the nature of those revisions, updates and additions are as important to the existing community than the revising, updating, and adding themselves.

[Hailene 362]

45 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Allowing players to queue regular and imping actions like creation and continue actions would not turn Wurm into a different game.

 

Then you really don't understand Wurm. Do you have any particular why there's so much community backlash in this thread (and others)? Is it because we're just a colony of idiots? Or perhaps something else?

 

46 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Wurm is already an idle game.

 

Then you're awful at this game if you're confounded at running two idle clients.

 

46 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Note also that rote clicking is mental idleness.

 

You're doing that thing again. The thing where you confuse your opinion with fact.

 

47 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I'd be curious to know how many Wurmians actually do play the game -for- the existing imping "mini-game", and not in spite of it.

 

Most people who play PvE in this game (the vast majority) fall into 4 general camps: social, terraforming, building, and crafting.

 

52 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I can't fathom people not only defending repetitive tasks, but also desiring to impose that on others.

 

Showing you don't understand Wurm's niche or its community again.

 

I'll give some reasons I play or think others might, but others are free to chime in on their own personal reasons, too, please.

 

1. It's cathartic. The simple repetition is nice and comfortable after coming back from a chaotic day at work or with family. I have a library of games and the entire internet for other possibilities, but I play more of Wurm than the rest combined because I don't need high intense action or deep thought most of the time when I come home. I have enough of that else where.

 

2. It hits the right spot interactive and ease that keeps me here without draining me. Not quite an idle game, not quite something that requires the entirety of my attention.

 

3. The fact it is something some people (like yourself) dislike means that I have people that rely on me to assist them for their imping and crafting needs. For friends it means a sense of belonging (but not the only way, of course). For others, it's a way to earn coin.

 

58 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I'd prefer to see Wurm be more successful, but you all are hurting it.

 

And you wrap up your whole post with stating you don't understand the game or us.

 

While also twining the idea of your opinion being fact again. If anything, I have to give props to you being consistent.

[Roccandil 959]

Seems like you're actually agreeing with me here:

 

On 12/1/2017 at 0:12 PM, Roccandil said:

Note also that rote clicking is mental idleness.

Quote

You're doing that thing again. The thing where you confuse your opinion with fact.

 

 

Quote

...I play more of Wurm than the rest combined because I don't need high intense action or deep thought most of the time when I come home.

 

I'll take it.

[Hailene 362]

23 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Seems like you're actually agreeing with me here:

 

The clicking isn't the idleness. The action timers is where the idleness comes from.

 

If the game was just clicking (like the beginning of your beloved Cookie Clicker), I wouldn't be here. I don't need a completely idle game.

On the other hand, I don't need another PUBG where I have to strain my sight, hearing, and thought process to the extreme every single moment.

 

The amount of focus a game requires isn't binary. It fits on a continuum.

[Roccandil 959]

4 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

The clicking isn't the idleness. The action timers is where the idleness comes from.

 

If the game was just clicking (like the beginning of your beloved Cookie Clicker), I wouldn't be here. I don't need a completely idle game.

On the other hand, I don't need another PUBG where I have to strain my sight, hearing, and thought process to the extreme every single moment.

 

The amount of focus a game requires isn't binary. It fits on a continuum.

 

I wonder if you understand what I mean by "rote clicking". Think of it as clicking without a meaningful choice. If I'm imping something, no choices exist to think about; select tool 1, imp item, select tool 2, imp item, repair, rinse, repeat.

 

I see that as "bad" clicking. "Good" clicking involves making a meaningful choice, requiring thought and decision.

[Hailene 362]

37 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I see that as "bad" clicking. "Good" clicking involves making a meaningful choice, requiring thought and decision.

 

I see. An interesting definition.

 

Sure. You'd prefer if the Wurm clicking was more intrinsically rewarding (fun in of itself) vs extrinsic rewarding (an ends to a means). I get you.

 

Automating the game even further is not the right approach. If anything, it just makes it even less interesting. The modicum of focus and what limited player skill to get things done would erode to something even less than it is now.

Your goal and solution are literally at odds with each other.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Hailene

[Daedicus 14]

Right. Sounds as if he wants more specific options rather than the automation/streamlining he proposed. "Should I imp with this tool and add a certain bonus to the finished product here, or imp with the other to increase the overall QL more."

 

Previously I had taken his interest in "meaningful choice" as meaning "Which skill should I choose to meaningfully automate for myself today?"

[Roccandil 959]

6 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

I see. An interesting definition.

 

Sure. You'd prefer if the Wurm clicking was more intrinsically rewarding (fun in of itself) vs extrinsic rewarding (and ends to a means). I get you.

 

Well, the interface is merely a window into the world, and as such, the less it interferes with interacting in the world, the better. The interface is more of a necessary evil.

 

As another analogy, the words in a story aren't the point; they are merely a window into the story's world. If I get hung up on the grammar, then the window is intruding into my story-world vision, and I should never notice the window.

 

6 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

Automating the game even further is not the right approach. If anything, it just makes it even less interesting. The modicum of focus and what limited player skill to get things done would erode to something even less than it is now.

Your goal and solution are literally at odds with each other.

 

Continual clicking requires foreground player processing. Full automation would allow the player to relegate decisionless tasks to the background, and use another character to do things requiring interesting decisions, which would improve the player's overall foreground gameplay experience.

 

Thus, full automation of decisionless processes would indeed mitigate the problem.

 

To be honest, were I to create a sandbox MMO, I would balance from the ground up around that concept. Give players squads, so that they can background long-running decisionless processes with some characters and foreground play others, such that the player can always be having interesting foreground gameplay.

 

Nevertheless, in the context of Wurm, I don't see that using the crafting window queue mechanic to do imping would allow any real automation. It would just reduce the clicks, while still largely requiring the player to be present. How long is the average imp timer? 10 seconds, maybe? So, for a few players, even if they could queue 6/7 imp actions with a single click, they -might- be able to do something else for a minute. Most players would get maybe 30 seconds.

 

For mining-type actions? Maybe 10secs again? For newbs, say 20secs? Again, we're looking at 3 actions x 20 secs in one click, so in the range of a minute to idle.

 

Is that -really- an idle game mechanic? I'm just not seeing it.

 

Really, at this point, I'd settle for reducing the clicks/keystrokes required to queue actions (my hands would thank you ).

[Hailene 362]

7 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

use another character to do things requiring interesting decisions, which would improve the player's overall foreground gameplay experience.

 

What "meaningful" actions are there on Wurm, in your opinion? I thought the issue was that there weren't many (if any) to be had?

 

7 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

How long is the average imp timer? 10 seconds, maybe?

 

First imp timer is 12 seconds, and it only gets longer from there. I think my final imp action (my 7th) is somewhere north of 30 seconds. I don't have to look at my screen for over 2 minutes while imping.

 

7 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

For mining-type actions? Maybe 10secs again?

 

For skilling? It's even longer since I use a low QL pick. I don't have to look at my screen for over 3 minutes.

 

7 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Is that -really- an idle game mechanic? I'm just not seeing it.

 

Considering a wise man said Wurm is already an idle game, I can only imagine further automating the game would make it even more of an idle game.

 

On 12/1/2017 at 9:12 AM, Roccandil said:

Wurm is already an idle game.

 

I'm not sure how you're still stuck at 3 actions considering all the time in the forum you spend. I figured if you semi-afked mined while you were on the forum you'd have 4, maybe 5 actions by now.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Hailene

[Roccandil 959]

3 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

What "meaningful" actions are there on Wurm, in your opinion? I thought the issue was that there weren't many (if any) to be had?

 

Er, I've said that the strength of Wurm is how many possible things there are to do. I never have time to do all I want, so I have to choose between multiple courses of action (opportunity cost again ).

 

3 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

 

First imp timer is 12 seconds, and it only gets longer from there. I think my final imp action (my 7th) is somewhere north of 30 seconds. I don't have to look at my screen for over 2 minutes while imping.

 

 

For skilling? It's even longer since I use a low QL pick. I don't have to look at my screen for over 3 minutes.

 

So, you're already achieving 3 min downtime. My imping/action window suggestions would not increase that downtime, they would simply reduce the clicks required to trigger it.

 

3 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

 

Considering a wise man said Wurm is already an idle game, I can only imagine further automating the game would make it even more of an idle game.

 

Anything involving cooldowns:

 

- prayers for faith

- meditations

- sermons

- lockpicking skilling

- favor regen

 

The smallest interval there is 10 min, which is perhaps a little too quick for me to consider it "idle gaming", but the rest are a minimum of 30 min (10 times more than your 3 min queue). I can do something, leave for half an hour, come back and do something, and so forth.

 

In no way are my click-reduction suggestions promoting anything like that.

 

3 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

 

I'm not sure how you're still stuck at 3 actions considering all the time in the forum you spend. I figured if you semi-afked mined while you were on the forum you'd have 4, maybe 5 actions by now.

 

I just made 4. To be honest, Epic is actively encouraging me -not- to grind for 50 days, because I have 70 effective meditation, but am only level 8 on PoK. If I wait for the 25% boost (which I can double with sleep bonus), any time I spend on the boredom of grinding is that much more valuable.

 

(Of course, I -should- be grinding on Freedom, but I have no desire to do so.)

[Hailene 362]

30 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

So, you're already achieving 3 min downtime. My imping/action window suggestions would not increase that downtime, they would simply reduce the clicks required to trigger it.

 

The difference between 7 clicks and 1 click in 3 minutes of downtime is pretty minuscule.

You are also eroding the work I did to obtain that.

 

That's why I would be in favor of binding multiple keys to a single keybind like Odynn's suggestion than simply giving everyone 10 actions. If you want 10 actions, then earn it.

 

36 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

To be honest, Epic is actively encouraging me -not- to grind for 50 days

 

To the best of my knowledge, PoK, like CoC, doesn't affect characteristic gains. Go do HFC or something for the ML and SD gains.

 

Or build a house or terraform your deed. If you use level, the digging skill gain is pretty negligible.

 

And you have to balance the 25% skill gain against the 50 days of prem you'd not be using and, most importantly, the fun you would be having in Wurm.

[Roccandil 959]

4 hours ago, Hailene said:

 

The difference between 7 clicks and 1 click in 3 minutes of downtime is pretty minuscule.

You are also eroding the work I did to obtain that.

 

Huh? I wasn't referring to repurposing Mind Logic. With the crafting window, I can queue up four actions in one click; you can queue up seven. We both clicked once, you get more out of it.

 

How is applying that to actions like mining or imping somehow eroding your work? You would queue up seven mining actions with one click, I would queue up four. You would queue up seven imping actions with one click, I would queue up four.

 

The difference is simply a reduction in clicking to fill the queue; the action timers would not be affected.

 

4 hours ago, Hailene said:

To the best of my knowledge, PoK, like CoC, doesn't affect characteristic gains. Go do HFC or something for the ML and SD gains.

 

Then the pedia is lying:

 

Quote

 

Intellect of the Enlightened

Gained at level 11

All skillgains are permanently increased by 25%, with the exception of Fighting skill and Faith. Characteristics will also gain this boost.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Hailene said:

And you have to balance the 25% skill gain against the 50 days of prem you'd not be using and, most importantly, the fun you would be having in Wurm.

 

Oh, I have -plenty- to do. I'm just less likely to choose grindy things to do.

[Hailene 362]

41 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

How is applying that to actions like mining or imping somehow eroding your work?

 

I'm going to guess you're not going to like if we neuter the skill gain like leveling does to digging, right?

 

42 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Then the pedia is lying:

Wouldn't be the first (or last) time it's wrong.

Though, again, I'm not 100% if PoK affects characteristics. My guts says no.

[Roccandil 959]

52 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I'm going to guess you're not going to like if we neuter the skill gain like leveling does to digging, right?

 

Do we neuter skillgain for using the crafting window over using the right-click menu? Levelling also largely bypasses the queuing system; the crafting window embraces it.

 

52 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

Wouldn't be the first (or last) time it's wrong.

Though, again, I'm not 100% if PoK affects characteristics. My guts says no.

 

I guess I'll find out.

[Hailene 362]

59 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Do we neuter skillgain for using the crafting window over using the right-click menu? Levelling also largely bypasses the queuing system; the crafting window embraces it.

 

If that's the case, then I will forever be against it. Skilling up would get way too easy.

 

There'd have to be some serious compensation for current players for this change to go through.

 

It'd be basically the same level of power creep when a new WoW expansion comes out.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Hailene

[Roccandil 959]

23 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

If that's the case, then I will forever be against it. Skilling up would get way too easy.

 

There'd have to be some serious compensation for current players for this change to go through.

 

It'd be basically the same level of power creep when a new WoW expansion comes out.

 

What? I don't understand your POV here at all. I simply don't see it:

 

1) Right now, I click four times on action bar to queue four mining actions, and presto four normal mining actions;

2) With an improved action window, I drag the mining action from the action bar to the action window, select max queue, hit the "go" button to insta-queue four actions, and presto four normal mining actions.

 

Aside from the initial overhead of setting up an action window, I then save three clicks per queue-filling. I think that's a nice interface improvement; my fingers would be happier, but -you- save six clicks, so twice as much benefit!

 

Where is this power creep and need for compensation for existing players?

Edited December 6, 2017 by Roccandil

[Hailene 362]

9 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

What? I don't understand your POV here at all. I simply don't see it:

 

I swear you forget what you're suggesting sometimes.

 

On 11/27/2017 at 8:35 AM, Roccandil said:

I would add a new window for imping, based somewhat on both the fence-building and crafting interfaces. At its most basic, the imp window would have a slot so you could drag in a stack of imp-able items. Like the crafting window, you would have a pane showing the tools and resources needed for imping. Like the fence-building window, as long as you have the tools and resources in inventory, you can use the exceedingly useful queueing tool to quickly queue up multiple imping actions, and the window will automatically do the right imping move for the next item.

 

[Roccandil 959]

5 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

I swear you forget what you're suggesting sometimes.

 

 

 

All right, so instead of sorting items by imp type, selecting a tool on my toolbelt and clicking on a few items to improve, I can instead feed the items to an imping window, and fill the queue in one click. Again, you save on the order of twice as many clicks as me.

 

Where is the power creep?

[Hailene 362]

13 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Where is the power creep?

 

Is this system going to lead to demonstrably easier imping?

 

Is it going to lead to demonstrably easier skilling?

[Roccandil 959]

58 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

Is this system going to lead to demonstrably easier imping?

 

Is it going to lead to demonstrably easier skilling?

 

Hmm. When I'm imping at least as many items as I have queue slots, I tend to not lose time queueing, since I use the first action timer to queue up more actions; it just takes lot of clicking/keystrokes to keep up. For me, that's literally a pain (even with keybinds); I physically feel it afterwards. The fact that I don't lose any time, though, indicates that an imping window wouldn't provide any extra imping speed or skill.

 

Theoretically, however, an intelligent imping window could marginally improve imping times of a -single- item, since the window will respond more quickly to the tool required for the next imp than a human can. Since serious skilling sessions involve lots of items, though, I don't see that really affecting skilling. Also, the single item improvement time won't be any more efficient than if a human were imping multiple items.

 

With that mind, I'd say an imping window would be physically easier (and thus more accessible) simply due to the fewer keystrokes/mouse actions involved, but not easier in terms of actual gameplay or skilling time.