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Roccandil

Allow more use of queueing system

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Based on my last automation-suggestion thread, I've made some more specific suggestions, and since they seem to be getting lost there, I've started a new thread for them.

 

Given the clear anti-macro policy of Wurm, here's what I would do to improve player QoL using the existing queueing system:

 

Mind Logic

 

First step: remove the mind logic queueing restriction, and allow everyone to queue ten actions. The could be very useful for new players, while not imposing anything on them if they don't want to use queueing. (The fact that basic interface functionality isn't immediately available feels the same to me as if we couldn't use the right mouse button until 30 ML. :P I see no good reason why new players should be forced to do more clicking to accomplish the same tasks; that sort of thinking depresses the player base.)

 

At the same time, repurpose Mind Logic such that instead of allowing extra queueing actions, it provides an skill/statgain bonus, perhaps up to 10% at 100. To me, that fits the world story nicely: Vynora gives exp bonus, Vyn gives ML, more logic allows one to learn more.

 

New Improvement Window

 

I would add a new window for imping, based somewhat on both the fence-building and crafting interfaces. At its most basic, the imp window would have a slot so you could drag in a stack of imp-able items. Like the crafting window, you would have a pane showing the tools and resources needed for imping. Like the fence-building window, as long as you have the tools and resources in inventory, you can use the exceedingly useful queueing tool to quickly queue up multiple imping actions, and the window will automatically do the right imping move for the next item.

 

Additional functionality:

 

- Include repairing as a recognized imping action;

- No immediate binding of queued action to item; that is, you can have 3 items, queue 10 actions, and the window will do 10 imping actions on the 3 items.

- Intelligent resource usage: the window will choose the lowest QL matching resource in inventory to do the imp.

 

New Action Window

 

This window would be like the crafting window, only it would allow dragging actions into it as well as items. So, for instance, you could drag mining into it, and queue up ten mining actions with a single button click.

 

Or, for a resource-consuming action, you could drag in taming and a stack of mixed grass, and queue up ten taming actions.

 

Additional Enhancements

 

- Make resting a queueable action. This would be most useful for levelling: queue a levelling, then a rest to regain all available stamina, then a levelling.

- Make expgain from levelling the same as normal digging/mining. I see no reason to punish that, any more than I see any reason to make actions give less exp if they were queued.

- Make tree chopping a single action, with multiple skill ticks (like levelling or repairing), both for cutting down and chopping up.

- Modify the crafting window to pull needed items from inventory for continuing (again, like the fence-building window).

 

In short, I'd like to see the very handy queueing functionality of the crafting window extended to imping and regular actions.

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19 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

modify the crafting window to pull needed items from inventory for continuing (again, like the fence-building window).

+1 to this. like a boat should be mallet and boat in the crafting window where it just takes stuff from inventory to continue with

 

rest of it, not a fan

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I'll do my best to cover each of your suggestions separately, and in order for clarity.

 

Mind Logic:

29 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 :P I see no good reason why new players should be forced to do more clicking to accomplish the same tasks; that sort of thinking depresses the player base.)

It's perhaps an unfortunate truth but if a new player can't look at what is possible with higher skill and use that envy for motivation then perhaps the game isn't for them. But I am a firm believer that there is something for everyone in this game regardless of skill.

 

31 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

At the same time, repurpose Mind Logic such that instead of allowing extra queueing actions, it provides an skill/statgain bonus, perhaps up to 10% at 100. To me, that fits the world story nicely: Vynora gives exp bonus, Vyn gives ML, more logic allows one to learn more.

Big -1 to this, because by your logic you are rewarding skilled/veteran players with EVEN MORE skill gain which is bad as we have already established above.

 

"Improvement Window:"

-1 to reducing the player input on imping in general. Perhaps the last entertaining thing about sitting down to grind is the fact you have to at least pay attention to what tool is required for your next action and thanks to toolbelts and keybinds this is practically a non issue.

- Repairing is repairing, not imping. It has it's own skill and recognized keybind. Simply use it.

 

"New Action Window:"

-1 for the simple fact that if this did exist a current feature (selection bar) would be functionally useless. As it is it helps to fix issues with certain skills (Like taming) and queuing actions for them. Not to mention this "feature" is also already covered by simply using keybinds and our beloved action queue.

 

38 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

- Modify the crafting window to pull needed items from inventory for continuing (again, like the fence-building window).

+1 Like, big time. Having to constantly swap/change the stack and or item I drag into the non-tool box of the crafting menu is tedious for no real reason. My beloved action queue helps with this at times but here would be a good place for that aforementioned equality for new players. :D

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-1 on the premise, why unlock everything being new? Part of the psychological reward of putting in hard work is the "unlocking" of specialist abilities.  Such as, mind logic 10 levels per action click.  :). This seems to be equivalent of giving everyone a level 100 player to make it fair for all players in others games...

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I'm not here to play cookie clicker. If you want a game that largely plays itself, there are plenty of other games out there.

-1

 

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25 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I'm not here to play cookie clicker. If you want a game that largely plays itself, there are plenty of other games out there.

This game is just advanced cookie clicker.... Some things work by themselves (Cooking, Smelting stuff, Breeding) and in order to get there, you have to click (Farm the stuff, Mine the stuff to be smelting, Get the animals to be bred). Im pretty sure you are here for a more mature and advance version of cookie clicker. Don't let your previous opinions to a player's post lead you to saying things that make no sense.... again.

 

+1 To all additional stuff at the bottom (except leveling, I believe that should be removed/retweaked, makes no sense that I can't drop past 40 slope but i can level at 41+ slope upwards)

-1 to removing mind logic's queue reward, Earning the 4th Queue was a nice feeling. Removing progression from the game wouldn't be that good of an idea imo

+1 to action window, not sure about improve window. 

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To be fair Yiraia I think you're both correct and incorrect. Yes, there are automated elements to Wurm. Every game has them to an extent. But comparing a game that lets warm and cook food over time or breed animals is not in the same vein as a game like Cookie Clicker or other idle games where a point is reached where one literally NEVER has to play again because the game has reached a point of autonomy.

 

Some of the suggestions here could be good if implemented well, but not as put forward here.

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-1 overall. Sounds like you want to play minecraft. 

They only idea I like and have suggested since the crafting window came into existence is the imping window. Make it much like the crafting window except at the top it has a series of boxes much like the component boxes of the crafting window. You put your imping items in those boxes and put the item you want to imp in a singular box below. Then you just press improve. Have a repair button built in as well or include repair as part of the improve button.

 

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On 11/27/2017 at 0:16 PM, Daedicus said:

Mind Logic:

It's perhaps an unfortunate truth but if a new player can't look at what is possible with higher skill and use that envy for motivation then perhaps the game isn't for them. But I am a firm believer that there is something for everyone in this game regardless of skill.

 

Basic interface functions shouldn't be locked; it's bad business. The interface is a window through which one looks into the game world, and the clunkier the interface, the dirtier the window, and the dirtier the window, the fewer people can see the world for the great game it is, and the fewer people that can see that, the fewer people will play.

 

Gameplay progression within the world should absolutely be a thing, but not interface progression (tutorials aside).

 

On 11/27/2017 at 0:16 PM, Daedicus said:

 

Big -1 to this, because by your logic you are rewarding skilled/veteran players with EVEN MORE skill gain which is bad as we have already established above.

 

I'll grant balancing is an issue, but I suggested it because it's "lore logical". The entire bonus I mentioned is less than the Vyn bonus, and wouldn't be gotten all at once. Also, it -would- mean that newer players would actually be staring down less of a gap with vets.

 

The real point, of course, is repurposing Mind Logic, and I wouldn't want to just take away a bonus from folks who earned it without giving something in exchange.

 

On 11/27/2017 at 0:16 PM, Daedicus said:

 

"Improvement Window:"

-1 to reducing the player input on imping in general. Perhaps the last entertaining thing about sitting down to grind is the fact you have to at least pay attention to what tool is required for your next action and thanks to toolbelts and keybinds this is practically a non issue.

 

Perhaps it's entertaining the first 10K times, but even with toolbelts/keybinds, it eventually gets old. :P Note that players entertained by manual imping wouldn't -have- to use an imping window, just as players don't have to use the crafting window.

 

I see no good reason to deny those people who would very much like to use the queueing system for imping.

 

On 11/27/2017 at 0:16 PM, Daedicus said:

- Repairing is repairing, not imping. It has it's own skill and recognized keybind. Simply use it.

 

Repairing is an integral part of the imping process (and to be pedantic, also results in effective QL improvement). Sure, I use the keybind, but right now the only way to queue multiple repairs in one click is to repair at the top of a item tree. Again, I see no good reason for that.

 

On 11/27/2017 at 0:16 PM, Daedicus said:

 

"New Action Window:"

-1 for the simple fact that if this did exist a current feature (selection bar) would be functionally useless. As it is it helps to fix issues with certain skills (Like taming) and queuing actions for them. Not to mention this "feature" is also already covered by simply using keybinds and our beloved action queue.

 

As I see it, the selection bar is where actions would be dragged -from-, so an action window would result in the selection bar being used more than ever. As it is, keybinds -do- bypass your selection bar, and the crafting window itself bypasses the right-click window. Is it really such a bad thing to have multiple ways to do things?

 

The crafting window's queueing system is one of the best points of this game's interface, and the essence of my suggestions is to leverage that excellent functionality for as many actions and action types as possible.

 

As I see it, Wurm is a great game with a dirty window that drives away newer players. I'd like to see that window cleaned up, but I get the impression that some of the objections I'm seeing are reflexive naysaying by those who had to deal with the dirty window, and don't want anyone else having a cleaner one.

 

-That- I can't understand, and really don't want to.

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We must be overdue for " that guy " who wants to change the entire game they just discovered 3 months ago.

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I think one of the issues here is your window theory. I can see where you are coming from but you are looking at having every single action available in your queue as a requirement to play the game. Where as there are many long term vets who haven't and may never break the 6-7 level. It is not what makes the game the game. And I'm sorry that you can't see that.

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7 minutes ago, Daedicus said:

I think one of the issues here is your window theory. I can see where you are coming from but you are looking at having every single action available in your queue as a requirement to play the game. Where as there are many long term vets who haven't and may never break the 6-7 level. It is not what makes the game the game. And I'm sorry that you can't see that.

 

Not a requirement, but an improvement (and a good business improvement, at that). Honestly, I think you all are just used to the way it is. :)

 

If this game were wildly popular, then I think my criticism would have less weight, but as far as I can see, Wurm is barely hanging on. Wurm -needs- new players.

 

Again, the core gameplay is great, but accessibility isn't. Yes, X skill should take Y time to get to level Z, that makes for interesting choices. But, if we can reduce the clicking (not time) required to level those skills and do things in the world, I see that as a good thing.

 

Really, the Wurm pop now is perhaps the maximum number of people in the online world who are willing to put up with the interface for the sake of the game world. :P I'm hoping that the entry barrier can be lowered, not by changing core gameplay, but by making the Wurm world itself more accessible.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

Not a requirement, but an improvement (and a good business improvement, at that). Honestly, I think you all are just used to the way it is. :)

 

If this game were wildly popular, then I think my criticism would have less weight, but as far as I can see, Wurm is barely hanging on. Wurm -needs- new players.

 

Again, the core gameplay is great, but accessibility isn't. Yes, X skill should take Y time to get to level Z, that makes for interesting choices. But, if we can reduce the clicking (not time) required to level those skills and do things in the world, I see that as a good thing.

 

Really, the Wurm pop now is perhaps the maximum number of people in the online world who are willing to put up with the interface for the sake of the game world. :P I'm hoping that the entry barrier can be lowered, not by changing core gameplay, but by making the Wurm world itself more accessible.

 

 

You have hard data to support this is a good business improvement? or just random noodling.

 

A stick with no carrot leaves little to gain skills for.

Edited by Kadore
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33 minutes ago, Kadore said:

You have hard data to support this is a good business improvement? or just random noodling.

 

A stick with no carrot leaves little to gain skills for.

 

What, if ML didn't unlock queueing actions, there would be no carrot? ML is earned by doing other things that unlock their own benefits. I've never ground anything simply because it provided ML; I prefer to do things that provide multiple benefits at once. (And note that I did suggest giving some other bonus to ML.)

 

As to business improvements, if I have a choice between a product that has an efficient interface that just works, and one with an inefficient interface that requires a lot of headaches to do what I need, I know which one I'm picking.

 

Maybe you need hard data to convince you that that's a normal human trait. If so, that's your business, not mine. It's not my job (or inclination) to change your mind. :)

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44 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

What, if ML didn't unlock queueing actions, there would be no carrot? ML is earned by doing other things that unlock their own benefits. I've never ground anything simply because it provided ML; I prefer to do things that provide multiple benefits at once. (And note that I did suggest giving some other bonus to ML.)

 

As to business improvements, if I have a choice between a product that has an efficient interface that just works, and one with an inefficient interface that requires a lot of headaches to do what I need, I know which one I'm picking.

 

Maybe you need hard data to convince you that that's a normal human trait. If so, that's your business, not mine. It's not my job (or inclination) to change your mind. :)

Not at all, after enough years it's very clear to me the product Wurm is for better or worse, I picked it knowing well enough what it was an continued to play, I ###### from time to time but I don't feel the need to convince the game on how to improve and think I have the clairvoyance to be a all knowing person on how the game would be more successful if only people would listen to me.

 

If we removed ML allowing more actions, whats next, now you need stamina removed to perform those 10 actions, where does it end?

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I had a little bit written up about various aspects of your suggestion, but it all boiled down to one point. Most of your suggestions here and in other threads are based around afk play, allowing to gain skill and perform actions with the minimum of interaction. This is not what Wurm is, and nor what it should be. It is not an incremental game, don't expect it to become one.

 

Learn to spend time focusing on your play, and working towards your goals, if you struggle maintaining alts, don't use them, if you find certain tasks boring, work with others who enjoy them.

 

Wurm is a game about the journey, not the destination, don't try to skip to the end.

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8 hours ago, Retrograde said:

I had a little bit written up about various aspects of your suggestion, but it all boiled down to one point. Most of your suggestions here and in other threads are based around afk play, allowing to gain skill and perform actions with the minimum of interaction. This is not what Wurm is, and nor what it should be. It is not an incremental game, don't expect it to become one.

 

Learn to spend time focusing on your play, and working towards your goals, if you struggle maintaining alts, don't use them, if you find certain tasks boring, work with others who enjoy them.

 

Wurm is a game about the journey, not the destination, don't try to skip to the end.

 

I'm disappointed, but it's your game.

 

I disagree, however, that requiring more clicking to do the same work is valuable interaction. Rather, it's a mask to disguise how little is actually happening. Personally, I don't think Wurm needs that, but, maybe it does.

 

It boils down to this: repetitive clicking isn't fun for many people. Some people thrive on it, sure, and if that's your target customer base, that's your business. But the more non-fun mechanics people must endure to do something fun, the fewer customers you will have.

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6 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

It boils down to this: repetitive clicking isn't fun for many people.

 

There have been many suggestions on the forums to increase the amount of work for actions. To make imping more interactive (closer to a minigame than it is now).

 

We want to increase interaction, not reduce it like you have been suggesting.

 

Your suggestion would reduce fun for many players.

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10 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

There have been many suggestions on the forums to increase the amount of work for actions. To make imping more interactive (closer to a minigame than it is now).

 

We want to increase interaction, not reduce it like you have been suggesting.

 

Your suggestion would reduce fun for many players.

 

I suppose that, yes, anyone who finds repetitive clicking fun would indeed have their fun reduced if repetitions were reduced. :P (And if you're saying I'm against a hypothetical imping system, that's a little deus ex machina! :) )

 

I will also revisit this:

 

9 hours ago, Retrograde said:

Most of your suggestions here and in other threads are based around afk play, allowing to gain skill and perform actions with the minimum of interaction. This is not what Wurm is, and nor what it should be. It is not an incremental game, don't expect it to become one.

 

In reality, that means you expect people to sit through what many would find boring "interaction" to get to something fun, instead of allowing them to queue up actions and do something else more valuable with their time (and for what, ten minutes, max?).

 

I find that exceedingly disrespectful, and given that attitude, the smallness of your playerbase is no surprise. Many people simply won't put up with that (and fewer still will point it out; they'll just silently fade away).

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16 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

In reality, that means you expect people to sit through what many would find boring "interaction" to get to something fun

 

I really don't like horror movies or rom coms. They don't do anything for me. Can't really get into them.

 

Now I could go in and try to have suggest how they could change horror movies and rom coms to try to appeal to me...or accept that their model just inherently does not interest me.

 

We have a specific system that people play the game for. We like it. Many others don't. It seems you do not.

 

That is fine. No one is putting a gun to my head and forcing me to watch rom coms. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play Wurm.

 

It is one thing to make suggestions that compliment the mechanics within a game. It is an entirely different matter to change the foundation of a game.

 

You want an incremental mostly idle-able game. That's great. There are plenty of games like that out there.

 

Don't try to turn Wurm into one of them. That's not true to Wurm's own mechanics and will definitely not sit well with its player base.

Edited by Hailene

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