Serious Question! How many here speak English as a second or third language?

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

I have gotten in "debate" with someone on the internet who insists it would be extremely easy to spot a non-American posting on the internet because their lack of fluent English would give them away. 

 

Leaving aside the obvious fact that America is NOT the only country in the world where English is the primary  language, I think they are severely underestimating how many people in the world speak (or rather write) near-perfect English even when it is not their native language.  

 

I have many many times here in the forums conversed with someone over an extended period, sometimes even for years, without realizing that English was not their primary language. So I am trying to get a sense of how widespread it is in other countries to be fluent in English -- fluent enough so that no one on the internet can guess that it is NOT your first language. 

 

(I imagine talking in voice chats is different as accents are probably much harder to miss)

 

 

 

PS: Part Two was they insisted even if the person had good command of the English language, they would be unable to "pass" on things like current events and politics. My gut feeling is that non-Americans who are active on the internet tend to be extremely well educated and very "up" on current events and politics, even including American politics.  

 

 

PSS:  This person -- who yes, was an American -- was also unaware that English was the native language of most Canadians   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Brash_Endeavors

[Emoo 4,357]

Yikes, honestly alot of the people who are able to speak English as a second or third language have a better written command of the English language than a good portion of native speakers in my experience. 

There's absolutely no way I'd ever feel comfortable trying to guess someone as being having  English as a first or second language based off of text alone. 

All this being said, it's quite often easy to spot the stereotypical ignorant American on the internet because of somewhat ridiculous debates and statements as your friend has come out with.  

[elroth 279]

Please people, lets make the forums great again

 

 

 

[Milkdrop 278]

mhum... narrow minded fellow you found there, the force not strong is with him.

Is Yoda actually an American of sorts?

 

 

He sure tries hard though.

 

Anyhow, I think how fluent someone is in any language depends on their interest in said language or if they need it for some sort of activity that has them being very passionate about something they do a lot, maybe every day.

I learned the basics of English back in school 5th grade onward which enabled me to play EverQuest and other MMOs online with native (and non-native) English speakers and then added Anime with English subtitles to the mix (a English book or two may have snuck in as well). I have no idea how many headaches I caused as a result of this though.

That was how it went down for me and at the end of the day I only care if I am being understood, I want to be able to converse properly with someone if I am in that situation.

 

I don't aim to "pass" as American or whatever, simply being able to talk with someone else who has hopefully a good command of the English language is all that matters for me.

Sometimes that can be rough as with three languages going around my mind not always the correct word comes to mind when I need it, but I'm not a native English speaker so I hope people forgive me if I slip up.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Milkdrop

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

Inversely, I've met many folks I could've sworn English was NOT their native language when it turns out it was...

[Jaz 2,665]

On the contrary I've met a few people already where I could not tell Hungarian is not their native language (even after chatting for hours) although they sworn they've never lived in Hungary and they have no close relatives from there, just learned it for a few years. I'm always amazed what language skills some are gifted with.

Also funny to see how little knowledge does that guy you talked with have about the languages spoken around the world.

What about the dozen or more countries where English is the first language (sometimes an English spoken funny hearing as an outsider for sure)?

[BrQQQ 2,854]

I also think it's wrong that you can spot non native speakers so easily. The thing for non native speakers is that they usually learn the language in a formal environment (like school) so they specifically learn all the grammar rules and such. This often means that they spend extra attention on things like grammar, while a native speaker doesn't think as much about the grammar of their own language.

There is also a bit of confirmation bias involved. When you see someone write English in a terrible way, you might think "oh yeah they're obviously not a native speaker", so you think you can pick them out. In reality you can't see the thousands of people who are also non native speakers who you didn't pick out.

 

In my experience, non native speakers do have a limited vocabulary range. Say they work in IT, they could maybe explain a program in full details with lots of jargon and complicated words. But then you ask them something about groceries and suddenly they don't know the words for "leek", "spring onion" or "parsley". Or at least not on the spot. For a Dutch example, try telling someone in English that you bought "jong belegen kaas, volkoren brood, halfvolle melk, bruine bolletjes en andijvie". By talking about "mundane" subjects like that, you can often pick them out.

 

Another way of noticing that they're not native speakers is by being aware of some basic words or grammar rules of other languages. For example, Dutch and German have a different sentence structure than English. Sometimes you can tell someone is Dutch or German by looking at how they (incorrectly) formulated their sentence. Another example is that a language like Russian doesn't have any articles (like "a" or "the"), so some native Russian speakers make the mistake of not using articles in English either.

 

Another thing that gives away that they're non native English speakers is the usage of "false friends". These are words that look the same between two different languages, but actually mean entirely different things. An example is that there was this guy in Wurm called Spider who would says things like "I become horse shoes" or "I become pvp". While he isn't exactly an example of a great English speaker, the mistake originated from the fact that he is a German speaker and that the German phrase for "I get" is "ich bekomme", which looks a lot like "I become".

If you're a non native English speaker, try googling "false friends English <your language>". It might make you realize you've been saying certain things wrong the whole time. A good Dutch example is "onderarm" and "underarm". Despite the fact that "onder arm" literally means "under arm" (when you look at them as separate words), they refer to different places on your arm.

 

 

[Yaga 2,887]

One problem with using English as a "lingua franca" in international environments is that native English speakers often tend to ignore the fact that - while it's "their" language that's being used -  they are not in "their native environment"!

 

Take Wurm Online as an example: we are using English as our common language, but it is still an international game originating in Sweden - not a US game! So, rather than looking down on non-native speakers (who may have a less than perfect grasp of English) native speakers should be careful to avoid using local or national peculiarities of their language, let alone use slang words. We should all confine ourselves to speaking what we in internationally mixed teams always called "International English": a simple and easily understood version of common schoolbook English. I know, it's not easy for native speakers and they are bound to forget about it frequently. But we can try...

 

We non-natives usually have the same problem when joining voice chats: our native-speaker friends usually don't make themselves aware how hard it must be for a German, Dutch, Danish, French, Italian... whatever... listener to understand (much less react to) their Southern States, Australian, Scottish, or whatever.... accent! So: why not speak slowly, clearly and - whenever possible - in an understandable "International English" way?  (I know it's hard... )

 

And finally: yes - usually, when you see a person using perfect English grammar and orthography, the chances are high that they are non-native speakers .

 

[Damascus 368]

I speak French  and English  and Babblenees   or as my sister say , stop mumbling . and have enough trouble with the 2 real ones.

I do find you can tell by the way the person puts or writes there words down in chat , they are precise short quibs  to the point ,

 

Put as other poster above says , local dialect and slag can screw English up so bad that even I cant understand what there trying to say from one end to the other in Canada .

 

Have to love the east coast !  hehe  .....

[Griffith 362]

if they type with a lot of errors its an "american",

if they type perfect english and then say sorry for my bad English, then they're not.

o/

i was born in Yew York, then as a baby and up to adulthood grew in a Spanish speaking country.

luckily for me i learned English in school (many countries have "american schools" for children of the military

and federal government. But if i hadn't gone to that school and instead had gone to local schools,

i wouldn't be able to communicate in English beyond a very basic level. If i hadn't learned English,

would i have stopped being an "american"? The person you were arguing with would probably say yes.

Also the English language is not exclusive domain nor proprietary to "America". It didn't even originate there.

But again I doubt the person you were debating with is interested in facts, seeing as their point of view

is already so narrow.

 

Food for thought - https://indiancountrymedianetwork.com/education/native-education/7-most-popular-native-american-languages-in-us/

 

 

[Warlander 2,730]

Native Pole here, living in Poland since birth and staying here for at least next 1-2 years - in case of Poland it depends a lot on age and view of the world and/or job.

 

People who were born and went to school before 1989 more often than not know Russian instead of English, while these who received their education after this year usually know English but not Russian. It also seems it's very difficult for these who learned Russian first to become fluent in English (most likely because Polish and Russian are in related group of languages, while English and most of the other European languages are very different).

 

In case of people who actually know English, their knowledge of the language depends a lot on their view of the world and/or job - Poland is uniform country with very little minorities, so there is no reason to know other languages unless you work in services in a big city or want/need to communicate with someone from other countries.

 

It's pretty easy to spot Poles both in text and speech - our grammatical rules are very different and it's difficult to use correct order of words all the time while you still use Polish as your primary. In speech, our accent is impossible to miss.

 

And yes, people over here who are interested in what's happening in a world WILL know a lot about USA politics and other current events and have an opinion on them.

[Jaz 2,665]

Now there are interesting points above for me. I'm sure it can be really hard to use properly a second language in the same language family as yours - this aspect did not hit me for long as my native language is quite different from all the others I got into interaction around me. Still, with some knowledge of English I have already had a few real funny misunderstandings in German (which I can understand at a very basic level and speak at an even more very basic level but only if I drink a few beers).

I used to envy those of you who have native languages which have a lot of relatively similar ones around but it is not necessarily a gift

[Fairyshine 3,183]

Interesting topic.  Get your friend to log into Wurm and ask him/her to pin point the non-native speakers, then you can PM the people and ask them what the truth is.  You can keep a tally of how often this person gets it wrong (and trust me, it will be a lot of the time.)

 

Obviously even in America there is a lot of difference in the ways Northerners and Southerners use language, have nicknames for items etc.  Now, mix into this that different nations also interpret words differently, then not even native English speaking people should think they all speak the same language!

 

Classic example: Australians snicker every time we see "I root for the USA."  In the USA, root means "cheer", but in Australia, it means something completely different!  If such confusion can be caused by the same language between English speaking individuals, then I doubt anyone has a hope of ever identifying someone as a native English speaker (or not) just from their written words.

 

As for spelling, punctuation and other language conventions, sorry to say but hardly anyone I know would always use the correct and proper English conventions (fluent English speaker, or not.)  And does this person seriously believe that nobody could be completely fluent in more than one language?   Heck man, I know someone who can even speak Klingon!

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

2 hours ago, Fairyshine said:

Classic example: Australians snicker every time we see "I root for the USA."  In the USA, root means "cheer", but in Australia, it means something completely different!  If such confusion can be caused by the same language between English speaking individuals, then I doubt anyone has a hope of ever identifying someone as a native English speaker (or not) just from their written words.

 

As with many words in the English language, one often has multiple meanings.

Root has multiple meanings (at least in the US). It can be used as a synonym for "cheer" or "support", but it also is the base of something (i.e. plant, number, problem. etc.). It even may also be used as slang here in the US to refer to a sexual act.

I get what you mean, though. When I went to the UK 20 years ago, I was thrown off when they offered me a cigarette but called it something else (that word would be blocked here on the forums) and was also thrown off when I was asked to go fetch the groceries from the "boot".

[NeeNee 855]

I think it's better to appreciate the effort non-English speakers go through to learn this crazy language than to try and 'pick them out'. Many of them (I've been told) haven't had lessons, but just learn from TV and games and jump in! I grew up speaking (informally) a second language and can read/understand a few others and I would NEVER feel comfortable enough to go and play on a non-English speaking server. Maybe Americans need to all give that a try and see how we feel.

 

(Also, now I know that my keyboard mashing in chat has probably picked me out as an American!)

[Piperpaws 4]

I'm actually writing a research paper for my college capstone course on a similar topic.

This thread actually helps me with my homework  

Thanks, ppl 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

I am not a native english speaker (Spanish as a first language). Yet I believe I am rather fluent on both written and spoken English. Hell, I know a great deal of people who write english perfectly while not being native speakers, while I know a few American and British people who have English as a first language, yet they write like neanderthals. 

[Firestarter 1,210]

11 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I am not a native english speaker (Spanish as a first language). Yet I believe I am rather fluent on both written and spoken English. Hell, I know a great deal of people who write english perfectly while not being native speakers, while I know a few American and British people who have English as a first language, yet they write like neanderthals. 

 

As with most, I never would've guessed English wasn't your first language. I must admit, I'm a little surprised! Your English seems better than some people I know in real life haha

[Angelklaine 4,266]

28 minutes ago, Firestarter said:

 

As with most, I never would've guessed English wasn't your first language. I must admit, I'm a little surprised! Your English seems better than some people I know in real life haha

Thats why I didnt quite grasp why some things I would say were such an issue. I am fully fluent, but things we non native speakers lack is slang. I swear I wasnt trolling! (Most of the time )

[Ayes 3,715]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:47 AM, Fairyshine said:

Interesting topic.  Get your friend to log into Wurm and ask him/her to pin point the non-native speakers, then you can PM the people and ask them what the truth is.  You can keep a tally of how often this person gets it wrong (and trust me, it will be a lot of the time.)

 

There ya go Brash. A better way to get a handle upon your topic question (if that is really your intent). As for myself, in game I "speak" in very brief grammatically incorrect responses, mainly because of my very poor typing skills. In contrast, on the forums when I have plenty of time to compose and review my thoughts I may seem to be an aloof intellectual. Neither is the truth really since when out in the real world I speak in a more casual friendly manner and adjust myself further according to the response I receive from the other person.

 

All that aside, I feel very fortunate to be a native English speaker since especially within the online world of gaming and such it has become the standard way to communicate. I always have respected people who can speak multiple languages or even just are able to communicate in English as their second since I am hardly able to come close to communicating with them in their native tongue. Yet a few attempted words in response in their language will usually be appreciated as respect for who they are and their country. Perhaps your narrow minded friend should keep this in mind. Of course their viewpoint is not exclusive to *Americans* either.

 

Yep, we native English speakers are in easy mode in terms of communication, that is until we travel to or live in another country where the tables are turned. Which is why I prefer round tables so none knows which side one is on.

 

=Ayes=

Edited November 29, 2017 by Ayes
s

[Grumpysmith 135]

Personally, anyone who is able to communicate effectively (even if not perfectly) in 2 or more languages has my respect.  Anyone capable of communicating effectively in two or more languages where the alphabet ( probably not the correct word) like Russian and English has my absolute utmost respect for the mental gymnastics they must go through.  So salute to all you multi-lingual people.