Posted January 3, 2018 tl;dr Big NO to any additional "automation". On 1/1/2018 at 9:55 PM, Roccandil said: For instance, if I could one-click an ore vein and tell an alt to mine indefinitely, even with automated resting, the alt will stop at 100. I would have to manually clear the floor, sort the ore (if needed), repair the tools, and fire him off again. I can bet my knarr on it, if your suggestion on this "automation" goes through then sooner rather than later a new suggestion will surface and ask the pile limits to be removed. When creating mortar and inventory/carrying capacity gets filled, "just drop the rest on the ground." And digging - just drop it on ground as we do with mining, instead of collecting to inventory. These kinds of suggestions will never end, there's no "people are happy now" moment that won't snowball any further. Personally I think, every suggestion to make anything "easier" in Wurm is another step closer to the game being "no fun at all". You set a goal, and if you get there you can cheer \o/ and shout in chat "Carpentry 50 wheeee!!" and people go "gratz!". With (infite) action queue, what will be left of that big part of the game, the feeling of accomplishment, the satisfaction of completion? Grinding the skills is not what this game is all about. 70 in every skill is not necessity. It's what the players chooses to pursue. I know of people who play priest as main character and they don't even try to "grind" channeling. They don't participate in month of semi afk sermoning. Instead, they logged in, did their prayers, raked their fields, tended to animals. In other words, the game can also be a normal game where you live as a normal person doing normal daily tasks. One can argue that new players and their gameplay are limited by skills. Fine, let's say that's true (well, it is, to some level). But making it easier to gain skill is not a solution. I'd rather see more options for low skills rather than new additions demanding a "previously aquired experience". Signature rant. I am still very much dubious in the "set course" option with ships. Yeah, it has made sailing less time consuming. Less... real. Now people want "autopilots" for their carts and horses when on highway. Others desire less clicking for easier skill leveling and crafting. If this continues, in 2 years - what does the player have to do? Log in and ... "mhh, this game has no content, boring..." and log out. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: Grinding the skills is not what this game is all about. ... Its not? Most of the good stuff the game has to offer requires higher skills. Low skills limit your goals to be "crappy 2x3 wooden house spending forever getting any item". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: I can bet my knarr on it, if your suggestion on this "automation" goes through then sooner rather than later a new suggestion will surface and ask the pile limits to be removed. When creating mortar and inventory/carrying capacity gets filled, "just drop the rest on the ground." And digging - just drop it on ground as we do with mining, instead of collecting to inventory. These kinds of suggestions will never end, there's no "people are happy now" moment that won't snowball any further. I suspect that the ground clutter limit is partly for server performance, so I'd be surprised if that one ever changed. All the same, since the stamina bar is already the limit for the longest automated task I know of (levelling rock), I see no reason why that wouldn't work across the board. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: Personally I think, every suggestion to make anything "easier" in Wurm is another step closer to the game being "no fun at all". Tedium is not difficulty. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: You set a goal, and if you get there you can cheer \o/ and shout in chat "Carpentry 50 wheeee!!" and people go "gratz!". With (infite) action queue, what will be left of that big part of the game, the feeling of accomplishment, the satisfaction of completion? If Carpentry 50 takes 2 months to accomplish, it's a big deal, regardless of how many clicks it took. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: Grinding the skills is not what this game is all about. 70 in every skill is not necessity. It's what the players chooses to pursue. I know of people who play priest as main character and they don't even try to "grind" channeling. They don't participate in month of semi afk sermoning. Instead, they logged in, did their prayers, raked their fields, tended to animals. In other words, the game can also be a normal game where you live as a normal person doing normal daily tasks. I agree. The game works, not because of mindless, repetitive clicking, but because of opportunity cost, which is enforced by the time requirements to gain skills. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: One can argue that new players and their gameplay are limited by skills. Fine, let's say that's true (well, it is, to some level). But making it easier to gain skill is not a solution. Again, tedium is not difficulty. Time is difficulty. Logistics is difficulty. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: I'd rather see more options for low skills rather than new additions demanding a "previously aquired experience". I'm not sure I follow. 2 hours ago, Shmeric said: Signature rant. I am still very much dubious in the "set course" option with ships. Yeah, it has made sailing less time consuming. Less... real. Now people want "autopilots" for their carts and horses when on highway. Others desire less clicking for easier skill leveling and crafting. If this continues, in 2 years - what does the player have to do? Log in and ... "mhh, this game has no content, boring..." and log out. If Wurm is nothing more than grinding skills, it's nothing more than a big Cookie Clicker. Grinding isn't content; it's the gateway to content. I want higher skills so I can -do- things I couldn't otherwise do. For example, I recently learned that Paving skill is needed to build second-story floors, so I did a session of pack/cultivate/pack to get the required skill. If Wurm was nothing more than that grinding, though, then you're right, it would be content-free. If raising skills to arbitrary numbers were all there was to do, the number of clicks required would be irrelevant. As it happens, I can now build second-stories, and I no longer need to grind Paving to do that. If Wurm were nothing more than grinding, though, then once I maxed out a skill, I'd be done with it and never use that ability again. It might be said that the true content of Wurm is what's left if everyone had 100 skill in everything, and from where I'm sitting, that's a lot of content. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 3, 2018 5 hours ago, Roccandil said: It might be said that the true content of Wurm is what's left if everyone had 100 skill in everything, and from where I'm sitting, that's a lot of content. To me it sounds that you'd be pretty OK to drop all skill requirements and just build and craft eeeverything available in the game *snaps fingers*. But why change a good game and not find an already existing version of what you wish Wurm to become? (not offensive tone) If we lose all skill grinds, you would power through all the content in three months, six if you have some "real life" or whatever that is called All landscape would be developed, all items on market have zero value, everyone can create everything. It'd be a map and character editor, "god mode". That's what I eventually see happening if things are made easier and easier. I'd rather see more options for low skills rather than new additions demanding a "previously aquired experience". I mean, a lot of new additions in the game are quite hard for beginners to create or obtain. I would see more new beginner friendly content rather than making the skillgain easier in general. Anyhow, there are as many opinions as there are people and then some. I've expressed mine, good luck with your suggestion (but no, really, I hope you fail miserably!) PS. My example about mining, digging and 'mortaring' was just a rough picture. If piles can't be changed in size, then make them drop to next tile, and the next, creating an area of piles. Whatever, someone will always come up with another idea about how to make it work Same for stamina, someone will certainly come up with a suggestion how to make it work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 3, 2018 55 minutes ago, Shmeric said: To me it sounds that you'd be pretty OK to drop all skill requirements and just build and craft eeeverything available in the game *snaps fingers*. But why change a good game and not find an already existing version of what you wish Wurm to become? (not offensive tone) Definitely not: the -time- requirement of skills/crafting is very important to enforce opportunity cost, which in my view is critical to Wurm's gameplay. Repetitive clicking, on the other hand, is nearly meaningless. 55 minutes ago, Shmeric said: If we lose all skill grinds, you would power through all the content in three months, six if you have some "real life" or whatever that is called All landscape would be developed, all items on market have zero value, everyone can create everything. It'd be a map and character editor, "god mode". That's what I eventually see happening if things are made easier and easier. Fewer clicks doesn't inherently mean less time to grind, so no, we wouldn't power through all content in mere months; the time to grind would remain the same. 55 minutes ago, Shmeric said: I'd rather see more options for low skills rather than new additions demanding a "previously aquired experience". I mean, a lot of new additions in the game are quite hard for beginners to create or obtain. I would see more new beginner friendly content rather than making the skillgain easier in general. I'm not suggesting making skillgain quicker; that needs to remain balanced. I simply want to see repetitive clicking reduced as much as possible, while preserving the time requirement. 55 minutes ago, Shmeric said: Anyhow, there are as many opinions as there are people and then some. I've expressed mine, good luck with your suggestion (but no, really, I hope you fail miserably!) PS. My example about mining, digging and 'mortaring' was just a rough picture. If piles can't be changed in size, then make them drop to next tile, and the next, creating an area of piles. Whatever, someone will always come up with another idea about how to make it work Same for stamina, someone will certainly come up with a suggestion how to make it work. Automation is great for repetitive tasks, but the less repetitive the task, the less useful automation becomes, while in the context of gaming, the less repetitive the task, the better the gameplay. I think the furor here is partly because certain grinding tasks are obvious low-hanging fruit for automation, which inherently means those tasks are poor gameplay. I'm basically a new guy coming in and saying why the frack haven't you automated this nonsense already! I get the sense that people are either being protective of Wurm, and thus glossing over an obvious shortcoming (and objecting to it being pointed out), or, because they had to click a bunch to grind, they want everyone else to have to as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 4, 2018 I haven't read the entire thread, because I'm too old to suffer through it all. If I recall, there is an option to use a G-pad where you program the keys to auto fill your queue, but for some reason, we can't program a macro on our regular keyboard. Honestly, I may not be remembering correctly... Anyway, if we could 1-click to fill the mining or digging queue, it would make keyboards last much longer. As it is, I have to cycle through several windows of miners, rapid fire clicking the "mine" action. It works and is doable, but every laptop I own gets a few squeaky keys over time from this game. I will +1 for things that reduce mindless clicking that has absolutely nothing to d with being skillful i the game. I will hold judgement on full automation of craft skills. I've been toying with suggesting an option of allowing automation for actions that are x levels below current skill level, so they could not be used for auto skilling, but would make things like B&M a lot less soul crushing. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Wurmhole said: If I recall, there is an option to use a G-pad where you program the keys to auto fill your queue, but for some reason, we can't program a macro on our regular keyboard. both are allowed, but the macros may not be automated. Don't ask me the rule's definition of automated though, It even has me confused. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
