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Roccandil

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Who is talking about mains or alts? I am talking about active versus passive play styles.

 

Again, you're countering an argument people aren't making. Congrats.

Edited by Hailene

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17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

 

But -I'm- not doing nothing. :P I only have so much foreground bandwidth to devote to the game. Priest mechanics allows me to fire off background tasks while I foreground task something else. Parallel processing can be very efficient. :)

Again, my limitation isn't resources, it's foreground processing time. If I'm going to spend foreground time grinding something like digging, I'll do it on my main.

If you can't manage to play two accounts at once, that does not justify that priest are idle gaming. It only justifies that you can only play 1 character, and must leave the other one idle.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

If that's the case, then I see no reason why improving the interface to support that organically would be an issue.

Somebody made a post about it, Hailene posted it if IIRC.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

I can go eat a meal while my priest stands there regenning favor. :) I'm willing to pay for that. (Although, it really doesn't cost any more. I simply derive no benefit from leaving a premium crafter/fighting standing around.)

I can eat a meal using my hands and play wurm with my feet... And I have sometimes... I can also take several bites of my food and simply click on whatever needs to be clicked in wurm. Its really not the difficult and I don't see your problem. Unless you are reading a book or something that requires consistent attention, you should be able to play 2 accounts. And if you are doing something else that requires your attention, again that doesn't mean priest is idle gaming.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Also, I do switch back and forth between my main and my alts; in fact, my original thinking in posting this was to make that easier. I'm not a fan of intense clicking sessions. :P

lol y u on wurmonline dood?

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

To borrow your second story analogy, priests may be a good second story, but crafters are the first, and without a first story, a second story is meaningless. The reality of the game mechanics is that crafters come first, and priests build on what crafters do.

I think you don't understand the fact that people know how to do more than one thing... Yes priest know how to make the second story and crafters know how to do the first story in my analogy, but they can also perform other tasks. You are behaving like priest can not craft in general. Also i stated to imagine a world where people ONLY WANT 2 story houses. This means that the first story makers are useless to the population, and so is the second story makers. Its when they work together, people are satisfied. Crafters need priest and priest need crafters. And don't even think about saying crafters can "live without them". If courier/dark messenger was removed, im sure everybody would be pissed.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Priests can survive without crafters, sure. But the pressure of the game mechanics is against people playing that way.

Crafters can survive without priest, sure. But the pressure of the game mechanics is against people playing that way. Again... spells are awesome. I don't even see myself needing high quality tools as often as low quality tools for grinding.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Sure, you can play a priest as a main, and I have no problem with that, but the game mechanics unquestionably promote playing priests as alts. That's reality. I get the impression you're blaming me for pointing that out, and if you want to do that, that's your business.

The game mechanics do not unquestionably promote playing priest as alts. It promotes priest and crafters working together, but you seem to not understand symbiotic relationships. I'm blaming you for not understanding a simple topic, and downgrading a whole other side of the game because of the way you choose to play it. @PumperNickelcan vouch for me. I was in a village called Willow Harbor or something like that a long time ago. Her main/only account was a vynoran priest, and she was in a village of 3-5 people with me. We all grinded our own skills, and played the game the way we wanted to, and it was fun. 

 

How would you react if a person logged on wurm and stood in spawn for 72 hours. Then, complained that the game is too easy to survive in. That is exactly what you sound like right now. Everybody would see that when he steps out there, his stamina won't allow him to run away from a hostile and would eventually get himself killed. However, his play style allowed him to live with no food/water for 72 hours straight.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

But from my perspective, it would be far more constructive to accept the problem inherent in the current mechanics, so that we can look at improving priest gameplay. As it is, your defense of the current priest mechanics is actually an obstacle to making things better for priests. (If playing a priest as a main is well-balanced now, why spend any time improving it?)

The fact you choose to not play the game is not a problem for the devs to fix. Even if priest had more content, you will continue to play as a crafter because of the fact that priest will continue enhancing crafter items. The only thing that can change that is allowing priest to do what crafters can, and that is never going to happen. Also, my defense is not that priest do not need more content, its that priest can not be defined as idle gaming. I bolded it several times and it seems like you still can't understand that? But its okay. As a tutor, I am naturally stubborn and will try to help somebody understand a fact (not an opinion) as long as they are willing to pay some attention, which you offer. When I state "Priest can not be defined as idle gaming" I am stating that there are tasks for you to perform, but you choose not to. Never have I ever said "Priest do not need any more content" And if I have, slap me, because I was probably tired. There is never a moment you look at an mmo and decide "Yeah, thats about as much as we need, lets keep it here." Priest and crafters can use more content, improving both of them. It can be priest specific, or crafter specific. The reason behind this is because a larger variety of tasks to do in game makes it more fun. NOT because of the fact YOU choose to do nothing else in the game. And allow me to change one word inside of what you parenthesized so you realize how terrible you are defending yourself... 

 

(If playing a crafter as a main is well balanced now, why spend any time improving it?)... Care to answer that question for me?

I increased the font size so you won't miss it.

17 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Also, I've repeatedly stated that priests can be played as mains, and I have no problem with that. The reality of the game mechanics, however, is that playing a priest as a main is unusual, because it's swimming upstream. The gameplay pressure is against priest mains; the mechanics strongly favor playing a regular character as a main and a priest as an alt.

You are in your own river bud. If you have money and decide to buy multiple accounts, then you buy multiple accounts and have at least 1 priest. If you have friends and choose to buy only 1 account, then odds are one of your friends will choose the priest account and work along with the crafters.

 

Think about is as a normal mmo... Would you rather have 2 healers, 1 healer 1 DD/Tank, or 2 DD/Tanks going into a dungeon? Healers alone can barely kill. DD/Tanks can't survive long without healing. But put them together and they can complete plenty more tasks. Both sides of wurm (crafting and priesting) are pretty crap without one another. I wouldnt expect a person who is new to understand that though. Even when I was new, I was having fun without a priest. But eventually, the majority of people realize that crafting without a priest by your side is really crap.

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17 hours ago, Hailene said:

Who is talking about mains or alts? I am talking about active versus passive play styles.

 

A main is played most. An alt is played less. As such, it's normal to leave alts idle online while a main gets the most foreground attention.

 

Due to priest mechanics, they fit well into the alt paradigm; they can be usefully left idle for a while, and their primary utility can be leveraged in relatively short enchanting sessions. Hence the culture of crafter/fighter main, and priest alt(s). (I might also point out that the distribution of spells means many folks have multiple priest alts, and the more priest alts one has, the more likely to be idle they are.)

 

I do wonder why you need me to explain the obvious. :)

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14 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Due to priest mechanics, they fit well into the alt paradigm; they can be usefully left idle for a while, and their primary utility can be leveraged in relatively short enchanting sessions. Hence the culture of crafter/fighter main, and priest alt(s). (I might also point out that the distribution of spells means many folks have multiple priest alts, and the more priest alts one has, the more likely to be idle they are.)

 

I do wonder why you need me to explain the obvious. :)

You are only explaining your experiences, and do not understand what is obvious. Your idle favor usage to grind channel makes you progess a lot slower in the game. Yes you may play like that, but that does not justify priest to be idle gaming. My priest requires just as much attention, sometimes more, than my crafter. My only "alts" are non prem accounts that were once premium. They are used to perform tasks while my priest/crafter sleep. Ex: organizing items/furniture that require load cargo.

The distribution of spells does not mean everybody purchase 2-4 priest accounts. I certainly don't think its worth spending that much money on wurm. People can easily trade for spells they can not cast themself, just like crafters trade whatever they can't craft yet.

 

You seem to have a lack of understanding on the fact that idle gaming is not justified by the way you play, its by what the game has to offer. 

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9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

If you can't manage to play two accounts at once, that does not justify that priest are idle gaming. It only justifies that you can only play 1 character, and must leave the other one idle.

Somebody made a post about it, Hailene posted it if IIRC.

I can eat a meal using my hands and play wurm with my feet... And I have sometimes... I can also take several bites of my food and simply click on whatever needs to be clicked in wurm. Its really not the difficult and I don't see your problem. Unless you are reading a book or something that requires consistent attention, you should be able to play 2 accounts. And if you are doing something else that requires your attention, again that doesn't mean priest is idle gaming.

 

This isn't about me or how I play. It's about fundamental game mechanics. It's about why most priests accounts are alts.

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

lol y u on wurmonline dood?

I think you don't understand the fact that people know how to do more than one thing... Yes priest know how to make the second story and crafters know how to do the first story in my analogy, but they can also perform other tasks. You are behaving like priest can not craft in general. Also i stated to imagine a world where people ONLY WANT 2 story houses. This means that the first story makers are useless to the population, and so is the second story makers. Its when they work together, people are satisfied. Crafters need priest and priest need crafters. And don't even think about saying crafters can "live without them". If courier/dark messenger was removed, im sure everybody would be pissed.

 

Priests can't build the first story (and quite literally, in game). First stories, however, can be quite useful even without second stories.

 

Crafters do not need priests the way priests need crafters.

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

Crafters can survive without priest, sure. But the pressure of the game mechanics is against people playing that way. Again... spells are awesome. I don't even see myself needing high quality tools as often as low quality tools for grinding.

The game mechanics do not unquestionably promote playing priest as alts. It promotes priest and crafters working together, but you seem to not understand symbiotic relationships. I'm blaming you for not understanding a simple topic, and downgrading a whole other side of the game because of the way you choose to play it. @PumperNickelcan vouch for me. I was in a village called Willow Harbor or something like that a long time ago. Her main/only account was a vynoran priest, and she was in a village of 3-5 people with me. We all grinded our own skills, and played the game the way we wanted to, and it was fun. 

 

Unquestionably the intention of the priest mechanics was to encourage symbiotic relationships. The low population of Wurm, however, makes that much harder to find and maintain, which is another reason so many people have priest alts: they don't want to have to depend on an unstable population.

 

So, more population would help priests (even if all the new pop decided to be crafters, I might add).

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

 

How would you react if a person logged on wurm and stood in spawn for 72 hours. Then, complained that the game is too easy to survive in. That is exactly what you sound like right now. Everybody would see that when he steps out there, his stamina won't allow him to run away from a hostile and would eventually get himself killed. However, his play style allowed him to live with no food/water for 72 hours straight.

The fact you choose to not play the game is not a problem for the devs to fix.

 

I played as a crafter/fighter without a priest on Epic and survived, because I had to. Maybe I could have gone to Elevation and priested up, but it was evident that wasn't a newbie course of action, especially with so few active players around. And at that time, I hadn't played enough to want to start a second account.

 

So, those were my choices. If you want to blame me for playing a fighter/crafter as main, well, go ahead. :)

 

But the bottom line is that if you're by yourself in Wurm, it will be far easier to play as a crafter than a priest. That has nothing to do with my playstyle, and everything to do with game mechanics.

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

 

 

Even if priest had more content, you will continue to play as a crafter because of the fact that priest will continue enhancing crafter items. The only thing that can change that is allowing priest to do what crafters can, and that is never going to happen. Also, my defense is not that priest do not need more content, its that priest can not be defined as idle gaming. I bolded it several times and it seems like you still can't understand that? But its okay. As a tutor, I am naturally stubborn and will try to help somebody understand a fact (not an opinion) as long as they are willing to pay some attention, which you offer. When I state "Priest can not be defined as idle gaming" I am stating that there are tasks for you to perform, but you choose not to. Never have I ever said "Priest do not need any more content" And if I have, slap me, because I was probably tired. There is never a moment you look at an mmo and decide "Yeah, thats about as much as we need, lets keep it here." Priest and crafters can use more content, improving both of them. It can be priest specific, or crafter specific. The reason behind this is because a larger variety of tasks to do in game makes it more fun. NOT because of the fact YOU choose to do nothing else in the game. And allow me to change one word inside of what you parenthesized so you realize how terrible you are defending yourself... 

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

 

(If playing a crafter as a main is well balanced now, why spend any time improving it?)... Care to answer that question for me?

I increased the font size so you won't miss it.

 

Priests have no unique choices. The only unique choice is which priest to be. If instead of simply channeling, priests needed to grind spell schools (say, elemental, nature, death, etc.), priests suddenly have grinding choices only they can make.

 

In no way are crafters thus constrained. They have many, many grinding choices unique to their class that priests cannot access.

 

I'd like to see the same for priests.

 

9 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

You are in your own river bud. If you have money and decide to buy multiple accounts, then you buy multiple accounts and have at least 1 priest. If you have friends and choose to buy only 1 account, then odds are one of your friends will choose the priest account and work along with the crafters.

 

Think about is as a normal mmo... Would you rather have 2 healers, 1 healer 1 DD/Tank, or 2 DD/Tanks going into a dungeon? Healers alone can barely kill. DD/Tanks can't survive long without healing. But put them together and they can complete plenty more tasks. Both sides of wurm (crafting and priesting) are pretty crap without one another. I wouldnt expect a person who is new to understand that though. Even when I was new, I was having fun without a priest. But eventually, the majority of people realize that crafting without a priest by your side is really crap.

 

Population, population, population. :) As I explained earlier, while symbiotic relationships are great, they require a steady population. The low pop we have now pressures players to be ready to do everything themselves (especially on Epic), which in addition to the game mechanics, promotes using priests as alts.

 

Priests as alts are the default, the normal, the standard for Wurm, and as alts, priests will be standing around a lot more than mains. That has nothing to do with how I play.

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3 minutes ago, Yiraia said:

You are only explaining your experiences, and do not understand what is obvious. Your idle favor usage to grind channel makes you progess a lot slower in the game. Yes you may play like that, but that does not justify priest to be idle gaming. My priest requires just as much attention, sometimes more, than my crafter. My only "alts" are non prem accounts that were once premium. They are used to perform tasks while my priest/crafter sleep. Ex: organizing items/furniture that require load cargo.

The distribution of spells does not mean everybody purchase 2-4 priest accounts. I certainly don't think its worth spending that much money on wurm. People can easily trade for spells they can not cast themself, just like crafters trade whatever they can't craft yet.

 

You seem to have a lack of understanding on the fact that idle gaming is not justified by the way you play, its by what the game has to offer. 

 

If my experience has anything to do with my point of view, it's not due to my playstyle, but due to the nature of Epic itself. The symbiotic environment you describe I've only briefly seen on Epic (due to the recent update), and I knew I couldn't count on it to last long.

 

All the same, it's evident that many Freedomers like to be able to do as much as they can themselves, and that has a similar outcome. That's one reason priest alts are so common on Freedom, and priest mains are more the exception.

 

Sigh. I didn't create this dynamic, I'm only observing it. :)

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30 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 An alt is played less. As such, it's normal to leave alts idle online while a main gets the most foreground attention.

 

You can focus on your crafter for 4 hours. You can have a priest AFK for 22 hours a day and just play them actively (saccing and casting) for 2 hours a day. The priest is an alt (as it is not your main focus) and it can primarily be afk...but it can also be actively played just as well.

 

I don't know why you're arguing (well, I do, but it's for...special reasons). No one is saying priests can't be played AFK. I play my priests AFK when I have to step away for dinner or something. And sometimes I play them actively when I try to get a nice cast for someone. After all, a buyer doesn't want to wait 3 weeks while I passively regen the favor for a 95+ cast.

Priests are primarily alts. Priests are often played AFK. Sure. I can agree with that.

 

But you saying that priests can ONLY be played mostly AFK is patently false as the saccing mechanic allows continuous play. Even more so when used in conjunction with a battery.

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53 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Priests as alts are the default, the normal, the standard for Wurm, and as alts, priests will be standing around a lot more than mains. That has nothing to do with how I play.

Just because priests are usually alts of most players doesn't mean you have be idle...you can do tasks on your priest not just wait for favor, cast, and pray. Go farm, fish, raise your fighting skill, or raise locksmithing/cloth tailoring to make bulk favor for yourself. If you are just standing around waiting for favor on your priest and occasionally praying where you can be doing something else is not really efficient.

 

You don't have to do everything on your crafter, you just choose to do everything on there and let your priest be afk.

 

-1 to this suggestion also

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33 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

If my experience has anything to do with my point of view, it's not due to my playstyle, but due to the nature of Epic itself. The symbiotic environment you describe I've only briefly seen on Epic (due to the recent update), and I knew I couldn't count on it to last long.

 

All the same, it's evident that many Freedomers like to be able to do as much as they can themselves, and that has a similar outcome. That's one reason priest alts are so common on Freedom, and priest mains are more the exception.

 

Sigh. I didn't create this dynamic, I'm only observing it. :)

You've been around for all of 6 months... your "experience" and knowledge of this game is very limited.

Further, your observations made about this game are ones being made in its dying state. Add to that, you picked the cluster that was the flavor-of-the-month back in 2011 and has been dead since. You're making a lot of assumptions on how to play Wurm based off of living on a dead cluster in a dying game. 

With all of the ideas and suggestions I've seen you throw around lately, I really question why you're playing WO when it's evident there are quite a few WU servers that would suit the casual gaming you're looking for.

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1 hour ago, Hailene said:

But you saying that priests can ONLY be played mostly AFK is patently false as the saccing mechanic allows continuous play. Even more so when used in conjunction with a battery.

 

Just wanted to point out that this is a strawman. :) (I've repeatedly stated that priests can be played as mains; do I really need to pull the quotes?)

 

52 minutes ago, PumperNickel said:

Just because priests are usually alts of most players doesn't mean you have be idle...you can do tasks on your priest not just wait for favor, cast, and pray. Go farm, fish, raise your fighting skill, or raise locksmithing/cloth tailoring to make bulk favor for yourself. If you are just standing around waiting for favor on your priest and occasionally praying where you can be doing something else is not really efficient.

 

You don't have to do everything on your crafter, you just choose to do everything on there and let your priest be afk.

 

Again, who said "have-to"? No one has to let priest alts sit idle while playing a main, but the game mechanics -reward- that. (And why would I stand around staring at a priest regenning favor when I can be playing a main?)

 

53 minutes ago, As_I_Decay said:

You've been around for all of 6 months... your "experience" and knowledge of this game is very limited.

Further, your observations made about this game are ones being made in its dying state. Add to that, you picked the cluster that was the flavor-of-the-month back in 2011 and has been dead since. You're making a lot of assumptions on how to play Wurm based off of living on a dead cluster in a dying game. 

With all of the ideas and suggestions I've seen you throw around lately, I really question why you're playing WO when it's evident there are quite a few WU servers that would suit the casual gaming you're looking for.

 

If my experience and knowledge were so limited, I would have expected far more reasonable and compelling arguments levied against me. :P Nevertheless, the game mechanics and human behaviours which encourage alting priests are evident; they don't require a great deal of experience or acumen to observe.

 

And even if you reject that, then consider that I am, as a six-month player, simply describing what I -have- observed, on the forums, in the wiki, and in game. I have no personal connection, pre-existing preference, or bias that priests are usually played as alts; it's simply blaring at me from all things Wurm.

 

And if you question why I'm playing Wurm, then perhaps you don't understand me as well as you think you do. :)

 

Seriously, from my perspective, you all are arguing that the sun doesn't rise. :P

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Something else occurred to me: I've been using "crafter" to describe a class, but that's really inaccurate. We have a class that can cast spells, with significant restrictions on everything else, and a class that can choose to do anything but cast spells. (We haven't discussed, by the way, the exp penalty for priests grinding non-priest skills. Is that still a thing?)

 

Anyhow, one notable restriction is that, as far as I am aware, a priest cannot by themselves build a house and bed to sleep in. Thus, on their own, a priest cannot log for the night and expect to get sleep bonus (unless you use the recent addition of jumping to Epic, logging, and thus accruing sleep bonus on Freedom, which I haven't personally tested).

 

If I were improving priests as a class, I would look at giving them the ability to get sleep bonus for logging off in a more unique, priest-centric way. A simple method would be to allow sleeping on favored terrain, so Fo priests could sleep on grass, Libila in caves, Mag on rock, etc.

 

I think that would be cool. :)

Edited by Roccandil

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39 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

 

And if you question why I'm playing Wurm, then perhaps you don't understand me as well as you think you do. :)

 

I didn't ask why you're playing Wurm. I asked why you're playing Wurm Online when there are Wurm Unlimited servers that fulfill the type of play you are looking for. It doesn't make much sense for you to come to WO and ask for fundamental game mechanic changes (that are largely unpopular with Wurm Online's playerbase) when you already have what you'd like available elsewhere (Wurm Unlimited).

 

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2 hours ago, As_I_Decay said:

I didn't ask why you're playing Wurm. I asked why you're playing Wurm Online when there are Wurm Unlimited servers that fulfill the type of play you are looking for. It doesn't make much sense for you to come to WO and ask for fundamental game mechanic changes (that are largely unpopular with Wurm Online's playerbase) when you already have what you'd like available elsewhere (Wurm Unlimited).

 

 

When I first looked into Wurm, I saw there was a Wurm U versus a Wurm O, but I had no idea what that really meant except that Wurm O was officially supported by devs, and had clearly been running for a while, which meant it was less likely to be taken down under me.

 

Now that I do have more understanding of the difference, I'm already invested in Epic. I'd rather not restart; the recent skilling changes are actually headed in a direction I like; plus, and perhaps most importantly, I've met some good folks there I wouldn't easily leave behind for another Wurm experience. (It's quite possible that if they all pulled stakes for Wurm U, I'd go with them, but I haven't heard any talk of that.)

 

So, for the foreseeable future, you're stuck with me. :P

 

(And now that I've been saying Wurm U, I'm thinking of Monsters University and Monsters, Inc... :P Or, maybe Hogwarts, with Vyn the professor for Ravenclaw, Libila for Slitherine, Fo for Hufflepuff, and Mag for Gryffindor. Or something. :P )

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9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

All the same, it's evident that many Freedomers like to be able to do as much as they can themselves, and that has a similar outcome. That's one reason priest alts are so common on Freedom, and priest mains are more the exception.

Sigh. I didn't create this dynamic, I'm only observing it. :)

You might want to stop thinking about what is evident, and see the responses from the community right here.

 

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

This isn't about me or how I play. It's about fundamental game mechanics. It's about why most priests accounts are alts.

This is about how you play, The game allows you to perform many tasks and you choose to sit around and barely do anything. This is also not about priest being alts, its about priest being identified as "idle characters" I hope you haven't gone crazy yet, this argument is helping me with my GWAM.

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Priests can't build the first story (and quite literally, in game). First stories, however, can be quite useful even without second stories.

It seems like you have yet to go past one of Piaget's cognitive stages... https://www.webmd.com/children/piaget-stages-of-development#2 Look at the Formal Operational stage... Try to get a grasp of it. I said nobody wants a 1 story house in my example. If a person states an example, You go by the example to grasp it's concept. Just like if a person says "The feather in my hand breaks glass on colision. What happens if I hit it against the window?" Just incase you don't know.. It breaks the glass.

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Crafters do not need priests the way priests need crafters.

Yes, Yes they do. Without a priest/crafter relationship, tasks become much much longer.

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Unquestionably the intention of the priest mechanics was to encourage symbiotic relationships. The low population of Wurm, however, makes that much harder to find and maintain, which is another reason so many people have priest alts: they don't want to have to depend on an unstable population.

 

So, more population would help priests (even if all the new pop decided to be crafters, I might add).

Wut... lol Its called joining a village. Trust me, there are villages with 2+ people on everyday. Thats all you need if you wanna be the priest of a town. If those people leave, look in the forum and theres another town. More population would be nice, but thats just for the sake of the game, not priest alone. Only issue I find is finding people to link with as a Nathan priest.

 

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

But the bottom line is that if you're by yourself in Wurm, it will be far easier to play as a crafter than a priest. That has nothing to do with my playstyle, and everything to do with game mechanics.

Weird that you said playing as a priest is more difficult. I wouldnt find sitting infront of a altar and waiting 20 minutes to pray "difficult." Well, thats your playstyle.

 

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

I played as a crafter/fighter without a priest on Epic and survived, because I had to. Maybe I could have gone to Elevation and priested up, but it was evident that wasn't a newbie course of action, especially with so few active players around. And at that time, I hadn't played enough to want to start a second account.

So, those were my choices. If you want to blame me for playing a fighter/crafter as main, well, go ahead. :)

But the bottom line is that if you're by yourself in Wurm, it will be far easier to play as a crafter than a priest. That has nothing to do with my playstyle, and everything to do with game mechanics.

If you're by yourself in wurm, that is your playstyle. Don't insult the game because of your decision. Some people roll solo, some people roll in groups.

 

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Priests have no unique choices. The only unique choice is which priest to be. If instead of simply channeling, priests needed to grind spell schools (say, elemental, nature, death, etc.), priests suddenly have grinding choices only they can make.

In no way are crafters thus constrained. They have many, many grinding choices unique to their class that priests cannot access.

I'd like to see the same for priests.

No doubt many others would like to see that for priest, but thats not what we are talking about. We are talking about the fact that you believe priest are idle gaming, even though there are tasks they can perform (but you refuse to because you'd rather only look at one screen and your crafter can do everything else). 

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Population, population, population. :) As I explained earlier, while symbiotic relationships are great, they require a steady population. The low pop we have now pressures players to be ready to do everything themselves (especially on Epic), which in addition to the game mechanics, promotes using priests as alts.

Your low population is just epic, there are hundreds of people laying around in freedom, and It's not difficult to find 1 friend. The issue wurm has is that most people want to build their own place, or find it hard to move from a place they are so attached to. On Epic, I can't say anything. But for freedom, where the majority of wurm players exist, priest are usually alts when a person have more than 1 priest, or decide to make a battery. But even then, Those alts can sit around making bulk material.

9 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Priests as alts are the default, the normal, the standard for Wurm, and as alts, priests will be standing around a lot more than mains. That has nothing to do with how I play.

Priest are not alts as default, they are an additional toon. Priest stand around more than mains because they must be near an altar to gain faith, thats one of the main things I would like to see changed. But In no way are they idle characters if you have the time to play them. If you have nothing to do, switch over to freedom and I'll show you some ore I'd like removed. You will gain skill from it safely here ;) 

7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Anyhow, one notable restriction is that, as far as I am aware, a priest cannot by themselves build a house and bed to sleep in. Thus, on their own, a priest cannot log for the night and expect to get sleep bonus (unless you use the recent addition of jumping to Epic, logging, and thus accruing sleep bonus on Freedom, which I haven't personally tested).

Crafters craft beds. Some priest can cast coc. Both can't do what the other can. In a village with a priest and a crafter, both are available. Also, a priest can easily get an non prem alt to make a bed. Crafters can't get a non prem alt to cast coc. Sooooo... Win for priest.

 

7 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Again, who said "have-to"? No one has to let priest alts sit idle while playing a main, but the game mechanics -reward- that. (And why would I stand around staring at a priest regenning favor when I can be playing a main?)

lol... I'm not even going to ask why staring at your priest was an option to begin with.

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13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

You might want to stop thinking about what is evident, and see the responses from the community right here.

 

In other words, pay no attention to what I see, and just believe you all? :P

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

This is about how you play, The game allows you to perform many tasks and you choose to sit around and barely do anything. This is also not about priest being alts, its about priest being identified as "idle characters" I hope you haven't gone crazy yet, this argument is helping me with my GWAM.

 

You clearly have no idea how I play. :) Nevertheless, I haven't gone crazy; arguing for reality is straightforward. :)

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

It seems like you have yet to go past one of Piaget's cognitive stages... https://www.webmd.com/children/piaget-stages-of-development#2 Look at the Formal Operational stage... Try to get a grasp of it. I said nobody wants a 1 story house in my example. If a person states an example, You go by the example to grasp it's concept. Just like if a person says "The feather in my hand breaks glass on colision. What happens if I hit it against the window?" Just incase you don't know.. It breaks the glass.

Yes, Yes they do. Without a priest/crafter relationship, tasks become much much longer.

 

A non-priest can do a -lot- more without a priest than a priest can do without a non-priest.

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Wut... lol Its called joining a village. Trust me, there are villages with 2+ people on everyday. Thats all you need if you wanna be the priest of a town. If those people leave, look in the forum and theres another town. More population would be nice, but thats just for the sake of the game, not priest alone. Only issue I find is finding people to link with as a Nathan priest.

 

Weird that you said playing as a priest is more difficult. I wouldnt find sitting infront of a altar and waiting 20 minutes to pray "difficult." Well, thats your playstyle.

 

If you're by yourself in wurm, that is your playstyle. Don't insult the game because of your decision. Some people roll solo, some people roll in groups.

 

Er, Epic pop is notoriously low. :P Nevertheless, in my stints on Freedom, I've personally witnessed priest alts standing idle in front of altars... Reckon I'm supposed to ignore that, as well?

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

No doubt many others would like to see that for priest, but thats not what we are talking about.

 

That may not be what -you- are talking about. :)

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

We are talking about the fact that you believe priest are idle gaming, even though there are tasks they can perform (but you refuse to because you'd rather only look at one screen and your crafter can do everything else). 

 

A significant principle you're not considering is opportunity cost. I'll use the priest exp penalty on non-priest skills as an obvious example. If I have to choose between grinding a skill with a priest at an exp penalty, or with a non-priest with no penalty, the efficient choice is clear: I'm not going to use the priest.

 

That doesn't mean people -have- to make that choice, but the pressure of the game mechanics is such that given that choice, most people -will- choose the non-priest.

 

That's only one potential opportunity cost decision, however. If, for example, I have to choose between using a non-priest to grind an imping skill, and using a priest to grind a non-imping skill, again, I'm going to choose the non-priest.

 

Sure, we can switch between toons, but we can't foreground play every toon we have online, so some will stand idle more than others. By their very nature, priest alts get selected for that more often; the game mechanics favor leaving priests idle.

 

Note, however, that "idle" may simply mean longer gaps in queuing. To go back to my first example, if I'm grinding digging on a main, that doesn't mean I can't also dig with a priest alt, but it does mean I'm going to optimize for keeping my main busy, not my priest. The priest will be idle longer than my main.

 

Furthermore, many people have more than one priest alt, and second and third priests are even more likely to be left idle due to opportunity cost. The more toons one has, the more some will be left idle, and again, in that situation, the game mechanics favor priests being left idle.

 

(Ironically, my original suggestions in this thread were about making it easier to keep an alt busy while playing a main, so I was arguing -against- leaving alts standing around.)

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

Your low population is just epic, there are hundreds of people laying around in freedom, and It's not difficult to find 1 friend. The issue wurm has is that most people want to build their own place, or find it hard to move from a place they are so attached to.

 

Yes, most people want to build their own place. And, the impression I get is they want to be as self-sufficient as possible. This means even more priest alts (and batteries), which means more idling. :P

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

On Epic, I can't say anything. But for freedom, where the majority of wurm players exist, priest are usually alts when a person have more than 1 priest, or decide to make a battery. But even then, Those alts can sit around making bulk material.

 

If by making bulk material, you mean someone playing a main and switching now and again to queue up actions on a priest alt, that's "idle gaming" according to the detractors of my suggestions. (I happen to disagree with them, but hey.)

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Priest are not alts as default, they are an additional toon. Priest stand around more than mains because they must be near an altar to gain faith, thats one of the main things I would like to see changed. But In no way are they idle characters if you have the time to play them.

 

The "priest alt" is a culture I didn't invent; I'm merely observing it.

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

If you have nothing to do, switch over to freedom and I'll show you some ore I'd like removed. You will gain skill from it safely here ;) 

 

Much the contrary, I have too much to do, thus I have to make opportunity cost decisions, thus I often leave my priests idle.

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

Crafters craft beds. Some priest can cast coc. Both can't do what the other can. In a village with a priest and a crafter, both are available. Also, a priest can easily get an non prem alt to make a bed. Crafters can't get a non prem alt to cast coc. Sooooo... Win for priest.

 

It bears repeating: non-priests can do a great deal more without priests than priests can do without non-priests.

 

13 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

lol... I'm not even going to ask why staring at your priest was an option to begin with.

 

Oh, that wasn't -my- suggestion. :P

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13 hours ago, Brew said:

 

quoted from nov 25.  Never responded to the question.... :)  just saying!

 

Apparently I've never played one of the games listed there, and in reading the description, I'm not sure why you'd think I'd want to. :P Perhaps you haven't read my description of "good" clicking versus "bad" clicking?

 

Nevertheless, I'll quote the primary definition:

 

Quote

Incremental games (also known as idle games, clicker games, or clicking games) are video games whose gameplay consists of the player performing simple actions such as clicking on the screen repeatedly ("grinding") to earn currency.[1]

 

-That- is Wurm grinding, and -that- is exactly what I would like to see automated. Why anyone would think I'm -for- repetitive clicking is beyond me. :P

 

No doubt, however, some of you would point at the secondary definition, so let's quote that too:

 

Quote

In some games, even the clicking becomes unnecessary after a time, as the game plays itself, including in the player's absence,[2] hence the moniker "idle game".

 

Guess what: that's the functionality of Mind Logic. :P Over time I'll need to click or type less and less to perform simple actions such as mining to earn exp.

 

LOL. :P No wonder you all are so afraid of the phrase "idle gaming"; it's not just priests; Wurm is riddled with it!

 

Sigh. Clearly you folks don't understand me at all. :) I'll give you a hint: in reality, automation is great for freeing up time, not to do nothing, but to do more interesting work.

 

The irony is that Wurm has plenty of interesting things to do. It doesn't need to rely on petty, mindless, repetitive clicking to be fun. What you all seem to be missing is that I want to automate mindless activities in Wurm so that I can have fun doing the non-mindless activities Wurm offers.

 

From my perspective, the mindless stuff is an obstacle that must be endured in order to do what I really enjoy in Wurm.

 

And I suspect a lot of potential players and customers feel that way, too.

Edited by Roccandil

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All right: something has now crystallized for me about Wurm. :) Since we've brought up professions, I'll say I'm an information technology professional, a Linux system administrator to be precise. Here's hoping it's no surprise to hear that IT security is a really big deal. :)

 

IT Security has three pillars, confidentiality, integrity, and availability. For a layman's description:

 

- Confidentiality: data can't be accessed by those who shouldn't have access;

- Integrity: data is what it's supposed to be; it hasn't been corrupted;

- Availability: data is available to those who should have access.

 

A common misconception is that data would be secure if we welded it into a safe and dropped it into the ocean. Yes, that would render it confidential (and given a good quality safe, maybe even the integrity would be preserved), but it would no longer be available. Therefore, that data isn't secure.

 

If we view the Wurm gameplay itself as an IT system, the developers anti-macroing security functions have diminished the game's availability. Anyone who legitimately runs into the fatigue barrier has experienced that lack of availability in an obvious way, but repetitive click requirements are a more subtle lack of availability.

 

And the lower the availability of the game, the fewer people will play it.

 

I've experienced this myself in a PBEM system I once managed. I made the mistake of trying so hard to render cheating impossible, that I made legitimate gameplay too difficult, and in the end, no one played it.

 

While the decisions of the Wurm developers are their own, and I won't fault them one way or another, I do believe that their anti-macroing provisions have driven away legitimate customers, and from my perspective, Wurm can ill afford that.

 

In short, the developers aren't trusting their player base, and while I understand that, I also know that tends to result in fewer users. (And perhaps I'm being naive, but I get the impression that the developers -could- trust the core community to isolate known botting accounts, thus rendering botting less attractive.)

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26 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

In other words, pay no attention to what I see, and just believe you all? :P

You are talking about how the game works, but you are only in the early stages. The majority of people talking to you have gone past that. I don't see how you can visual yourself as a source of great knowledge.

 

27 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

You clearly have no idea how I play. :) Nevertheless, I haven't gone crazy; arguing for reality is straightforward. :)

You stated that you have your priest sit around and have your main do everything. You also like to eat while your priest sits around and does nothing. Thats enough information for me to realize that you only want to gain faith from your priest.

 

29 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

A non-priest can do a -lot- more without a priest than a priest can do without a non-priest.

If a person can only buy premium for one character, More would be completed if they had 1 priest and 1 alt than 1 crafter and 1 alt.

 

30 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Er, Epic pop is notoriously low. :P Nevertheless, in my stints on Freedom, I've personally witnessed priest alts standing idle in front of altars... Reckon I'm supposed to ignore that, as well?

Does that mean when I leave thats all they do? or they are simply afk at that moment. That also does not justify priest being idle gamers. If I was busy and only had a crafter that was prem, I could stand near a meditation rug. Then every 30 minutes, meditate. Does that mean crafters are idle gaming with no question?

32 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

That may not be what -you- are talking about. :)

You seem to have forgotten that you are utilizing your idea that priest are idle gaming, so why not crafters. And that the majority of this is about how a priest can be non-idle if you actually play.

 

34 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

A significant principle you're not considering is opportunity cost. I'll use the priest exp penalty on non-priest skills as an obvious example. If I have to choose between grinding a skill with a priest at an exp penalty, or with a non-priest with no penalty, the efficient choice is clear: I'm not going to use the priest.

 

That doesn't mean people -have- to make that choice, but the pressure of the game mechanics is such that given that choice, most people -will- choose the non-priest.

Spoiler

Why-Not-Both.jpg

You have the choice to do both, and that would be most beneficial if you are playing wurm (not multitasking, but just playing wurm).

38 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

That's only one potential opportunity cost decision, however. If, for example, I have to choose between using a non-priest to grind an imping skill, and using a priest to grind a non-imping skill, again, I'm going to choose the non-priest.

 

Sure, we can switch between toons, but we can't foreground play every toon we have online, so some will stand idle more than others. By their very nature, priest alts get selected for that more often; the game mechanics favor leaving priests idle.

Why can't you foreground play 2 toons. How hard is it to click 2 different buttons... And I even stated that the crafter should take on the improving skill while the priest take on the non-improving skill for most efficiency. Are you already forgetting everything we mentioned earlier? The game mechanics do not favor priest being idle. The amount of favor gained from sitting around is insignificant for enchanting, and crafters have cooldowns for meditation just like faith gaining does.

 

42 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Note, however, that "idle" may simply mean longer gaps in queuing. To go back to my first example, if I'm grinding digging on a main, that doesn't mean I can't also dig with a priest alt, but it does mean I'm going to optimize for keeping my main busy, not my priest. The priest will be idle longer than my main.

Again, where is the difficulty of pressing 2 different buttons... Just have half the screen be priest and half be the crafter. If you can't play 2 characters then okay, but that doesn't mean priest are idle gaming. It just means you have difficulty pressing 2 different buttons on separate windows.

 

45 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Furthermore, many people have more than one priest alt, and second and third priests are even more likely to be left idle due to opportunity cost. The more toons one has, the more some will be left idle, and again, in that situation, the game mechanics favor priests being left idle.

Batteries are best being idle. A true priest, one that can cast, Is going to require a lot more attention. If this person you are imagining has 3 priest with 100 faith and 30-40 channeling after all that idle work, what are they possibly going to do? They will only be able to serve as links for another person. If 1 is good at channeling and theres another priest of the same diety with high favor, then the hes set. However, if a person has time, and a good enough computer, He can easily pump out of a lot bulk mats by having those priest work while hes grinding on his main. Game mechanics favor you actually playing.

 

52 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

(Ironically, my original suggestions in this thread were about making it easier to keep an alt busy while playing a main, so I was arguing -against- leaving alts standing around.)

If you are too busy, then you are too busy. Just gotta face it. I dont understand how much more difficult it is to press 2 different buttons than 1.

 

53 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Yes, most people want to build their own place. And, the impression I get is they want to be as self-sufficient as possible. This means even more priest alts (and batteries), which means more idling. :P

And that's their play style. But you can't define a character as idle gaming because you refuse to play it.

55 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

The "priest alt" is a culture I didn't invent; I'm merely observing it.

You have barely observed anything on that dead server of yours.

56 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Much the contrary, I have too much to do, thus I have to make opportunity cost decisions, thus I often leave my priests idle.

What is this "too much" where you can't click 2 buttons.... Seriously XD 2 buttons. I can have 2 characters working non-stop pruning trees if I really wanted to.

57 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

It bears repeating: non-priests can do a great deal more without priests than priests can do without non-priests.

The quantity does not matter, its the quality. Crafters can do more, but very often that more us just crap. Priest can't do as much, but damn are they amazing with their stuff.

 

53 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

LOL. :P No wonder you all are so afraid of the phrase "idle gaming"; it's not just priests; Wurm is riddled with it!

I can't vouch for everybody else, but there is being afraid of idle gaming, and then theres players spreading false information about the game. You can sit there and click to your hearts content. Or you can leave your account running and get little to nothing done. The choice is yours, but defining it as and idle game is simply incorrect

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23 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Again, who said "have-to"? No one has to let priest alts sit idle while playing a main, but the game mechanics -reward- that. (And why would I stand around staring at a priest regenning favor when I can be playing a main?)

I never said to just stand around waiting for favor... if you are content to do everything on your main then okay. That is your play style. But you don't have to do all tasks on your main if your priest is capable of doing it. My priest can make favor for herself which is essential because I don't have to rely on my main to do it for her. Yiraia's priest can make bulk square pieces of cloth to sac with to gain favor and cast.

 

Both crafters and priests need the same amount of attention to be good. And if you do make bulk favor you can sac, cast, and repeat which in return would raise your channeling skill faster. No need to let your priest be idle.

 

If you compare a priest just naturally regen favor and casting whenever they reached full favor vs a priest who makes favor, sacs it, and casts, who do you think would, in the end, have better results/skill? (Hint: its the one actually doing something) You can certainly do nothing but wait and be on your crafter all the time, but in my example it is slower to raise other priestly skills.

 

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Much the contrary, I have too much to do, thus I have to make opportunity cost decisions, thus I often leave my priests idle.

It isn't that hard to set up your priest in making bulk favor if you are so busy. And if it isn't making bulk favor you can make bulk planks, shafts, or bricks which all priests can do and crafters can use. This seems more efficient than leaving your priest be idle and you are clicking just a few more times. And not everyone leaves their priests idle but I cannot speak for everyone, I certainly do not leave my priest be idle even when my priest and crafter have prem at the same time.

 

2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

The "priest alt" is a culture I didn't invent; I'm merely observing it.

Your observations are quite limited since you only lived on Epic which is dead by what I heard by others. Come over to Freedom and experience more of the community.

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4 hours ago, Roccandil said:

All right: something has now crystallized for me about Wurm. :) Since we've brought up professions, I'll say I'm an information technology professional, a Linux system administrator to be precise. Here's hoping it's no surprise to hear that IT security is a really big deal. :)

 

IT Security has three pillars, confidentiality, integrity, and availability. For a layman's description:

 

- Confidentiality: data can't be accessed by those who shouldn't have access;

- Integrity: data is what it's supposed to be; it hasn't been corrupted;

- Availability: data is available to those who should have access.

 

A common misconception is that data would be secure if we welded it into a safe and dropped it into the ocean. Yes, that would render it confidential (and given a good quality safe, maybe even the integrity would be preserved), but it would no longer be available. Therefore, that data isn't secure.

 

If we view the Wurm gameplay itself as an IT system, the developers anti-macroing security functions have diminished the game's availability. Anyone who legitimately runs into the fatigue barrier has experienced that lack of availability in an obvious way, but repetitive click requirements are a more subtle lack of availability.

 

And the lower the availability of the game, the fewer people will play it.

 

I've experienced this myself in a PBEM system I once managed. I made the mistake of trying so hard to render cheating impossible, that I made legitimate gameplay too difficult, and in the end, no one played it.

 

While the decisions of the Wurm developers are their own, and I won't fault them one way or another, I do believe that their anti-macroing provisions have driven away legitimate customers, and from my perspective, Wurm can ill afford that.

 

In short, the developers aren't trusting their player base, and while I understand that, I also know that tends to result in fewer users. (And perhaps I'm being naive, but I get the impression that the developers -could- trust the core community to isolate known botting accounts, thus rendering botting less attractive.)

This post is hilarious. Thank you for giving me a laugh.

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5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

You are talking about how the game works, but you are only in the early stages. The majority of people talking to you have gone past that. I don't see how you can visual yourself as a source of great knowledge.

 

You're telling me to not believe my eyes. :)

 

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

You stated that you have your priest sit around and have your main do everything. You also like to eat while your priest sits around and does nothing. Thats enough information for me to realize that you only want to gain faith from your priest.

 

Priests are great at doing something when you can't foreground process their toons. It doesn't matter -why- you can't.

 

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

If a person can only buy premium for one character, More would be completed if they had 1 priest and 1 alt than 1 crafter and 1 alt.

 

Does that mean when I leave thats all they do? or they are simply afk at that moment. That also does not justify priest being idle gamers. If I was busy and only had a crafter that was prem, I could stand near a meditation rug. Then every 30 minutes, meditate. Does that mean crafters are idle gaming with no question?

You seem to have forgotten that you are utilizing your idea that priest are idle gaming, so why not crafters. And that the majority of this is about how a priest can be non-idle if you actually play.

 

Based on the wikipedia definition, imping is unquestionably idle gaming. :P Making bulk mats is as well.

 

Anyhow, sure, med and lockpick timers can be useful to let a non-priest stand around, just not as often. (Note that I -did- already include them on my list of "idle gaming" cooldowns.)

 

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

You have the choice to do both, and that would be most beneficial if you are playing wurm (not multitasking, but just playing wurm).

Why can't you foreground play 2 toons. How hard is it to click 2 different buttons... And I even stated that the crafter should take on the improving skill while the priest take on the non-improving skill for most efficiency. Are you already forgetting everything we mentioned earlier? The game mechanics do not favor priest being idle. The amount of favor gained from sitting around is insignificant for enchanting, and crafters have cooldowns for meditation just like faith gaining does.

 

Priests can only do one thing non-priests can't. Priests get an exp penalty on non-priest skills, last I heard. Plus, priests get gems praying, which is very nice. Usually if I want to multitask, I just leave my priests praying (which is evidently idle gaming, according to the Wikipedia definition, even if I'm staring at the priests while they pray.)

 

I do think Epic makes a difference to multi-tasking: action timers are so fast, it's hard to keep multiple toons staying busy. :P (And you want to use high QL tools, not low QL, so that means even faster actions. I like keeping stress levels low. :P )

 

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

Again, where is the difficulty of pressing 2 different buttons... Just have half the screen be priest and half be the crafter. If you can't play 2 characters then okay, but that doesn't mean priest are idle gaming. It just means you have difficulty pressing 2 different buttons on separate windows.

 

Batteries are best being idle. A true priest, one that can cast, Is going to require a lot more attention. If this person you are imagining has 3 priest with 100 faith and 30-40 channeling after all that idle work, what are they possibly going to do? They will only be able to serve as links for another person. If 1 is good at channeling and theres another priest of the same diety with high favor, then the hes set. However, if a person has time, and a good enough computer, He can easily pump out of a lot bulk mats by having those priest work while hes grinding on his main. Game mechanics favor you actually playing.

 

My first priest has 85+ effective channeling. My new Fo prime has 70+ (and only 41 faith). I've gotten 90/100+ casts on free favor.

 

I'll take it. :)

 

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

 

If you are too busy, then you are too busy. Just gotta face it. I dont understand how much more difficult it is to press 2 different buttons than 1.

 

And that's their play style. But you can't define a character as idle gaming because you refuse to play it.

You have barely observed anything on that dead server of yours.

What is this "too much" where you can't click 2 buttons.... Seriously XD 2 buttons. I can have 2 characters working non-stop pruning trees if I really wanted to.

The quantity does not matter, its the quality. Crafters can do more, but very often that more us just crap. Priest can't do as much, but damn are they amazing with their stuff.

 

I can't vouch for everybody else, but there is being afraid of idle gaming, and then theres players spreading false information about the game. You can sit there and click to your hearts content. Or you can leave your account running and get little to nothing done. The choice is yours, but defining it as and idle game is simply incorrect

 

Sigh. You're still trying to make it about me, when it isn't. Priests are usually alts, prone to idling, for very good reasons I've already described. Ironically, your experience playing a priest as a main seems to be getting in the way.

 

Nevertheless, at least according to Wikipedia (which means it must be true! :P ), far more than priests are idle gaming in Wurm.

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4 hours ago, PumperNickel said:

I never said to just stand around waiting for favor... if you are content to do everything on your main then okay. That is your play style. But you don't have to do all tasks on your main if your priest is capable of doing it. My priest can make favor for herself which is essential because I don't have to rely on my main to do it for her. Yiraia's priest can make bulk square pieces of cloth to sac with to gain favor and cast.

 

This isn't about "have-to", but about gameplay mechanic pressure.

 

Quote

 

Both crafters and priests need the same amount of attention to be good.

 

Definitely not true. My first priest become good at enchanting with a minimum of effort, while my main is still grinding so many essential imping skills to moderately useful levels. :(

 

Quote

And if you do make bulk favor you can sac, cast, and repeat which in return would raise your channeling skill faster. No need to let your priest be idle.

 

I haven't had any trouble using my main to provide mats for saccing when I want to do intense enchanting or channel grinding sessions. It would be far less efficient to regrind those skills so my priest could be (unnecessarily) self-sufficient.

 

Quote

 

If you compare a priest just naturally regen favor and casting whenever they reached full favor vs a priest who makes favor, sacs it, and casts, who do you think would, in the end, have better results/skill? (Hint: its the one actually doing something) You can certainly do nothing but wait and be on your crafter all the time, but in my example it is slower to raise other priestly skills.

 

Once again, you all are making erroneous assumptions. Who said I never did channel grinding? Free favor means I left my priest online to regen while I went to do something else. The choice there isn't between channel grinding and idle regen, it's between idle regen and logging the toon.

 

Opportunity cost, opportunity cost, opportunity cost. :P

 

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It isn't that hard to set up your priest in making bulk favor if you are so busy. And if it isn't making bulk favor you can make bulk planks, shafts, or bricks which all priests can do and crafters can use. This seems more efficient than leaving your priest be idle and you are clicking just a few more times.

 

It's not more efficient for me, but then it's not about me, anyhow.

 

I might also beat the drum that according to Wikipedia grinding bulk mats is idle gaming.... :P

 

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And not everyone leaves their priests idle but I cannot speak for everyone, I certainly do not leave my priest be idle even when my priest and crafter have prem at the same time.

 

Your observations are quite limited since you only lived on Epic which is dead by what I heard by others. Come over to Freedom and experience more of the community.

 

I've been on Freedom, if only briefly, yet in my limited time there I witnessed priests standing idle in front of altars. (I don't like Freedom, as it happens; I'll take Epic as it is over Freedom.)

 

But that's not the point. Everything you all have listed as ways of keeping priests busy as a secondary toon are merely last resorts for doing something useful once you have great faith/channeling, and I get the impression you're so used to that being normal, you don't see it that way. You're just seeing "my priest is doing something, so it must be good, and newbies should be doing this too".

 

But, as that relatively new guy with no priestly preconceptions, I've seen no compelling reason to play priests that way. The game mechanics encourage isolating priest foreground playtime to improving their reason for being (faith/channeling), while at the same time offering plenty of incentive to leaving priests standing idle in front of altars to regen that critical favor (which a new player won't be in a position to fuel so easily via saccing as an established vet, which is something else I think you all are missing/forgetting).

 

Perhaps once I get faith/channeling/gems where I want, I'll look at grinding up some other skills on my priests, but I suspect month(s) of playtime will pass before then, so the kind of "idle" gaming I've described is precisely the priestly alt gameplay a newcomer will be channeled into by the game (not that they "have-to", but it's very easy). What happens after 100 faith/channeling is irrelevant to a new player.

 

So. yes, you all are arguing at me from the experience and perspective of people who have long ago finished developing a priest's primary reason for existing, but for a new guy still developing that ability, priests are unquestionably idle gaming. And that -is- what new players will see, whether they're warned or not.

 

(There, I did the font+ thing. :P )

 

Bottom line: perhaps the devs should look at improving the experience of developing a priest's spell-casting abilities. Right now I really need to keep those prayers/sermons going, and my priests rarely leave the church. (To be honest, my main gets pulled in to stand around so my priests can get .08 faith every now and again; so my priests are not only idle themselves, they infect my main with idleness. :P )

Edited by Roccandil

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34 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

You're telling me to not believe my eyes. :)

I'm telling you your eyes have not witness enough, or is refusing to grasp anything that refutes your current beliefs.

36 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Priests are great at doing something when you can't foreground process their toons. It doesn't matter -why- you can't.

what???

39 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Based on the wikipedia definition, imping is unquestionably idle gaming. :P Making bulk mats is as well.

Definitions of idle:

1. (of a person) avoiding work; lazy. <--- Adjective

2. without purpose or effect; pointless. <--- Adjective

3.(of a person) spend time doing nothing; be idle. <--- Verb

Can you bring me the wikipedia article stating what idle gaming is. Id like to see their sources and find these gaming scientists that reached to this definition XD

42 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Anyhow, sure, med and lockpick timers can be useful to let a non-priest stand around, just not as often. (Note that I -did- already include them on my list of "idle gaming" cooldowns.)

Thats just your experience, again... If a person is very busy all of a sudden, they will adopt an idle gaming style where they can only perform tasks like meditation. If this person were to come on the wurm forums, they would be informed that there is more to do than meditate. This is what we are saying to you. You agree that there is plenty to do on a crafter, and im sure you would realize how silly it is to say a crafter is idle gaming, even though they only meditate.

45 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Priests can only do one thing non-priests can't. Priests get an exp penalty on non-priest skills, last I heard. Plus, priests get gems praying, which is very nice. Usually if I want to multitask, I just leave my priests praying (which is evidently idle gaming, according to the Wikipedia definition, even if I'm staring at the priests while they pray.)

lol seriously though whut is dis page.

46 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I do think Epic makes a difference to multi-tasking: action timers are so fast, it's hard to keep multiple toons staying busy. :P (And you want to use high QL tools, not low QL, so that means even faster actions. I like keeping stress levels low. :P )

Well again, where are the majority of players.

47 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

My first priest has 85+ effective channeling. My new Fo prime has 70+ (and only 41 faith). I've gotten 90/100+ casts on free favor.

I'll take it. :)

85+ effective... Does that mean 85 after the curve epic has, along with the faster xp they offer? 62 for the additional xp still sounds really slow. Also, keep in mind where the majority of wurm players are.

49 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Sigh. You're still trying to make it about me, when it isn't. Priests are usually alts, prone to idling, for very good reasons I've already described. Ironically, your experience playing a priest as a main seems to be getting in the way.

Nevertheless, at least according to Wikipedia (which means it must be true! :P ), far more than priests are idle gaming in Wurm.

Yes it is getting in the way. You can't define a priest as idle gaming as long as there are players out there that play priest while not being idle. Its simply incorrect.

 

 

Anywho, here is my definition of idle from wikitionary. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idle And it describes exactly how your priest is being treated. 

 

 

You really don't seem to understand the fact that you keep stating "I dont see why priest should be played like this, I like it like this." While I am stating "Because you chose to play like that, doesnt define the character as that." If you idle you priest, then your method of gaming for priest is idle gaming, no question :) But if my method of playing a priest is not idling, then priest can't not be define as idle gaming characters. You seem to not grasp that one concept.

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