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Some Epic Things

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Epic to Freedom Transfers

With the announcement of how Freedom skills will copy over to Epic in the future, there were a lot of questions of what we we’re doing for the reverse for those that no longer wish to play on Epic. Unfortunately going this direction has been a lot harder to pin down how to handle, and as some have pointed out, this is due to Epic having a 2x base exp rate compared to Freedom. This thread is to discuss what the current plan is, how we came to this plan, and to get feedback on it from all of you. I’m going to get a little bit technical here to show how I came to the formula at the bottom, if the technicalities don’t bother you feel free to skip to the end.

 

To start off with figuring this out is realizing how the 2x modifier on Epic and the skill effectiveness curve interacts with difficulty to gain skill. Copying skills directly across from Freedom isn’t a viable option as it makes the entire situation unfair on players on Freedom - every account that has played on Epic (not just the few that remain playing there today) would be able to bring across their skills they gained at a higher rate with no penalty. To get a better view of this I created a standalone program to test how skilling works on both Freedom and Epic and how they differ. This isn’t super easy to do as with the current skilling system the difficulty of the skill check plays a somewhat significant role in how skill is gained, so to start off with I used assumptions of “optimal skilling” where skill check difficulty was equal to the skill up until a max of 60. Using these values it becomes easy to see the differences between Freedom and Epic, with the mid levels being a large gap which then shrinks back towards 100 as expected. With every test I’ve done using this, the full run to 100 skill on Epic tends to take around 50-55% the needed skill checks that would be on Freedom.

 

When not comparing right to 100 though, but instead about 99 or so (so cutting out a large portion of the needed skill checks), difficulty of the skill check starts to matter a bit more when compared to your skill. Specifically using Meditating skill as a test subject, where difficulty tends to be capped at 10 for the majority of skill checks, we can start to see that at higher skills (around 50-90 range) it takes more skill checks on Epic than Freedom. For the larger majority of skills however, this is not the case. Most skills have far more flexibility in difficulty of skill checks available, making them take less skill checks on Epic than Freedom overall.

 

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The above graph was made by calculating the number of skill checks needed on Epic to get to each skill level, then applying that number of skill checks to the Freedom skill code and taking the resultant skill level. This is done for every skill level across every difficulty between 10 and 70 (and averaged over multiple runs to account for the randomness inherent in skill checks). The red line is a reference for where needed skill checks are equal between the two clusters. As is more easily seen by the 3d graph, the majority of points where needed skill checks are higher on Epic is in the low difficulty range (10-30) on mid-high skill levels (50-90). Looking to the far side however you can see that all levels are below the red line, showing that Freedom needs more skill checks for skills with higher difficulty available - the crossover of these two starts at around 30 difficulty, and from then on Epic is the clear winner of not needing as many skill checks..

 

The next problem is that we can’t know how people have skilled up. Were they efficient through everything, using the optimal difficulty for their level, were they as inefficient as possible, or somewhere in between? We don’t keep a history of skill checks, so this is something we cannot know definitively. For a couple of skills we can take a guess that most skill checks were done at low difficulty - but cannot be certain. Due to this, the fact that we can’t really go through every skill and decide a relevant ‘overall’ difficulty, and we need something that can be run against all accounts in the database at once, I went with keeping the data from the difficulty as above, but not using the difficulty in the final formula. This basically drops the graph from a 3d graph into a 2d graph, with a direct relationship between Epic skill and Freedom skill. Using the curve fitting tool in MATLAB gave me the following formula that fits as best as possible to the data available:

 

FreedomSkill = 0.0044135 * EpicSkill^2 + 0.5548 * EpicSkill + 0.377

 

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This formula isn’t perfect as you can see by some points being above the blue line and some below it - however it is the best fitting one and I think a fair one. To make up for some of the skills that maybe should have been higher than what this formula gives, we’re also thinking of copying across maximum skills from Epic to Freedom as they are, giving those that wish to transfer across the 3x skill rate back to what their Epic skill is. Also as should be clear, if any skill coming from Epic is lower than the character’s skill they already have on Freedom, no change will be made to the skill.

 

As a side note to complaints brought up about the new skilling system that will be implemented on Epic, I’ll be looking into some tweaks to make skill gain less reliant on creation spam before the update goes live.

 

Planned Tweaks

As was also mentioned in the news thread and brought up by many people, we have more planned for the update than just the major things announced last week. We’ve got a list of things that are going on, and would like to mention them here now so people know what is happening.

 

In no specific order, we’ll be looking at the following on Epic for this coming update: Moon metal bonuses, armour modifiers and damage reduction rates in general, spells like oakshell, bloodthirst and locate soul, local range and how that interacts between surface and cave layers, tower and influence mechanics, and skill thresholds. In the near future we’ll also be looking at working on a refreshed meditation system as well as spell list rebalancing across all gods.

 

The majority of these changes will be aimed at balancing things where needed, and will be monitored after the update goes live to see if additional tweaks or changes are needed.

 

Updated Map

We won’t be doing any map resets or new maps with this update or while we continue to make tweaks and adjustments after this update is live. Once any adjustments and mechanic changes are in and complete though, we will revisit the idea if it makes sense for the time.

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Is there a formula or statement or something that would show simple minds what our skills would become on freedom?

 

Will there be anything done for accounts with skills on both clusters?  Like if I grinded med to 80 on epic then grinded to 80 on freedom, it's just going to be flat out still 80 even though if I didn't grind it I'd have gotten a boost to starting the grind?

 

Are skills like faith and fight skill going to transfer 1:1?  I believe they are the same exact skillgain rate so 90 on epic matches 90 on freedom but maybe that can be confirmed

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I used some valrei items on my chaos character on epic to finish my personal goals. One of those is the dreaded Red cherry.

 

Am I now screwed when I bring this character over to Epic? I used the item on the account under the assumption that I would never be able to bring it over with its skills.

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I really hope tomes and affinities are not included here.

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1 minute ago, Retrograde said:

Just skills

 

does this work for body stats too? so i put in my 70 strength and it gets nerfed to 60? because at lower ends of skills for fs training you gain higher stats, but as you reach about 60 on epic it drops to about a 1/3rd of what it was at 1-60

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When you are completely changing the foundation of the game and not just making changes here and there then its only fair to let people out and if you are afraid of every Epic account that there ever was showing up on Freedom then use a loyalty system so that you aren't insulting the people that have held on staying loyal and paying while waiting. Transfers get given for trivial things in comparison to this such as deity swaps and med path swaps but changing the entire core mechanics means get nerfed or suck it up?

 

If you want to change Epic completely that's fine its your choice and I do honestly hope that it works, but it is not what we signed up for and we shouldn't be losing out for that choice. You make pretty graphs but they still don't tell the whole story about what is and isn't possible nor the fact that Freedom does have access to 2x gains.

 

Consider using something like this immigration policy to drastically reduce the 'damage' to the first class cluster?

 

Asylum Seeker Greencards

Any account with prem between April 12th and October 12th - Full account transfer (Skills/tomes/karma ect) and one inventory transport, potentially one boat each with the assistance of a GM.

 

Greencard lottery immigrants

Accounts not prem since between October 11th 2016 and April 11th - Partial account transfer (only skills as they are) and limited inventory transport (perhaps 10-20 items)

 

Tourist Visa

Accounts not prem since before October 11th 2016 - Partial account transfer (only skills at whatever your arbitrary % is) and no inventory transport.

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Also will med path transfer?  especially since it's confirmed meditating is harder on epic so we certainly earned it?

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-1 to Smejacks suggestion obviously. I think reasons have been mentioned in the other suggestion thread 

 

---

 

If this is how the skill transfer is going to be i think the devs are very generous towards the epic players. Seeing as if you have 99 skill you basically lose nothing. even at 90 you don't lose much.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, SmeJack said:

 

Asylum Seeker Greencards

Any account with prem between April 12th and October 12th - Full account transfer (Skills/tomes/karma ect) and one inventory transport, potentially one boat each with the assistance of a GM.

 

Greencard lottery immigrants

Accounts not prem since between October 11th 2016 and April 11th - Partial account transfer (only skills as they are) and limited inventory transport (perhaps 10-20 items)

 

Tourist Visa

Accounts not prem since before October 11th 2016 - Partial account transfer (only skills at whatever your arbitrary % is) and no inventory transport.

This is how you kill freedom markets and chaos pvp, it's extremely unfair and unreasonable. One boat? With how many containers? SMH...

 

Aside from that, it's a window of opportunity, and unfair for those in the future that resubscribe currently on epic. 

 

The only way taking tomes with your transfer would be fair is if they made the system more reasonable to earn them. Same goes for moonmetal - It's a paywall on freedom, so those coming from epic are severely overpowered. I don't understand why it's so hard to understand. 

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-1 to this entire thread especially the topic... quit wasting time trying to hug babies and focus on something useful. epic is pvp server, they can suck it up like they always have

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The formula feels about right for normal (more variable difficulty skills). If I'm understanding correctly, this will be applied across all skills, even the ones that take longer on epic? And the 3x to epic max is being considered as compensation for nerfing skills that should probably be buffed in a fairer world?

 

Hmm that sounds pretty reasonable, if it can't be done on a skill by skill basis.

 

... not looking forward to more meditation though, even with 3x

Edited by Czartemp

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this wasted time could have instead been made useful by prepping for map reset

 

edit: or creating red cloth pants since we have shirt / sleeves but no red pants

Edited by Evilreaper

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Dude a boat is a boat, I didn't say full boat, just boat....

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So as mentioned, will meditating be 1:1 and will fighting(and its substats) be 1:1?

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If tomes won't transfer, would there be considered a way to remove tomes from an account to use on another?

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The formula seems pretty fair. Nice graphs and explanation also.

 

If the same formula were used on body stats, however, I think it would considerably undervalue them. Could body stats be transferred at 1:1, or could you do some more matlab wizardry to calculate a fair formula for these also?

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Will there be an appropriate compensation with regards to stamina. 

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22 minutes ago, Talor said:

The formula seems pretty fair. Nice graphs and explanation also.

 

If the same formula were used on body stats, however, I think it would considerably undervalue them. Could body stats be transferred at 1:1, or could you do some more matlab wizardry to calculate a fair formula for these also?

This, especially since how body stats like Stamina can be gained more on freedom because of mining / digging and such. I know they did the patch to fix epic stamina on toons but it realistically doenst even compare to freedom toons. Not just talking about stamina but all characteristics.

Edited by Egard
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Formula is fine, until it not covers skills that have the same or higher difficulty to level then freedom. Those exceptions should be transfered 1:1.

 

Also, I'am amazed, how much some freedomers are focused on $$, how much they afraid that bringing any items or moonmetals would DESTROY freedom market. It's like epic players gonna cross, sell all their items and then begin to run naked everywhere, smacking everyone with their bare hands or di.... Couse, sure, they won't need their equipment.

Have you thought about wagon/ship market? All those immigrants would make their boats and wagons, it would certainly hit those markets!!!!

It's not like they gonna cross and buy things from freedom market, thus bringing silvers for freedom players.

 

My future prediction is:

Many people will cross to Epic, few will cross to Chaos. Those, who gonna cross to Chaos got bored, couse there would be less people on Chaos (many crossed to Epic). Finally they would come back to Epic or rot on freedom (DESTROYING it's market, of course).

Epic is blooming and everyone lives happily ever after (at least for one year).

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Wow jinx @egard

 

Edited by Postinglels
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19 minutes ago, Wilczan said:

Formula is fine, until it not covers skills that have the same or higher difficulty to level then freedom. Those exceptions should be transfered 1:1.

 

Also, I'am amazed, how much some freedomers are focused on $$, how much they afraid that bringing any items or moonmetals would DESTROY freedom market. It's like epic players gonna cross, sell all their items and then begin to run naked everywhere, smacking everyone with their bare hands or di.... Couse, sure, they won't need their equipment.

Have you thought about wagon/ship market? All those immigrants would make their boats and wagons, it would certainly hit those markets!!!!

It's not like they gonna cross and buy things from freedom market, thus bringing silvers for freedom players.

 

My future prediction is:

Many people will cross to Epic, few will cross to Chaos. Those, who gonna cross to Chaos got bored, couse there would be less people on Chaos (many crossed to Epic). Finally they would come back to Epic or rot on freedom (DESTROYING it's market, of course).

Epic is blooming and everyone lives happily ever after (at least for one year).

It's so insulting you result to name shaming us saying were capitalists all the time! Stop with that please. Maybe you wouldn't try to make money with your caches but others would.

 

No I care about bad game decisions which could ultimately kill freedom, just like epic has taken a hit. Thanks, but I simply see the greater picture here I guess.

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So if Freedom is harder according to what I understand from these graphs? Why are you bringing a 2x skillgain / timer to Epic? Lmao...  I agree with the RNG, but I'm not paying 20 USD every 2 months to play Wurm Unlimited.

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Budda what I don't understand is these transfers you have come up with to save epic by shuffling existing players over from the freedom side. When what both sides really need is players returning to wurm as well as a huge influx of new players.

 

https://www.humblebundle.com/endless-rpg-lands-bundle

 

Take this amazing promotion you guys have pulled off for wurm unlimited, its nearing 1/4 of a million copies of wu being sold. I think you somehow missed the boat on advertising for the wurm online servers through this promotion, or you hoping the ones that try wu and find they like the game somehow stumble across the wo servers?

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