Posted October 14, 2017 Fact is there are precious few epic players that have lived their wurm life there and stuck it out on a declining cluster, and they should not be punished for doing so. For those players it would be more than fair to transfer to freedom on effective skill. I am sure that will not make a dent or devalue either side's accounts. I have bytes swimming in my head that the reluctance of the devs to allow effective skill transfer from epic to freedom is about possible exploitation in the future and not so much about calculating how much time the skills took and what that time is worth. I can see the possibility of people creating epic toons, skilling using the curve and then transferring to freedom with a head start or freedomers going to epic to give their pet-peeve skills a boost and then taking them back. That would be unfair. How about a date dependent transfer, skills gained before x date on epic will transfer, everything after that stays on epic and falls within the proposed transfer system. This discussion should not be about who gains an advantage or has an advantage using a transfer, because as it stands right now freedom has the advantage. The proposed system is about reviving epic and I am sure it will, let's just accept the few epic players and their effective skills, forget about time and money, and concentrate on preventing possible exploitation. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 Like we've said, discussion is ongoing, and there's a lot of misconceptions here too We don't see everyone from PvE suddenly running over to epic to create farms and hedged gardens and whatever. Our plan for this is to make epic a unique cluster worth playing on, whether it's on the front line of elevation or the semi safety of a home server, many times we've been told "I'd love to check out epic but we don't have epic skills and don't want to regrind", we think this would allow that, and make epic as a cluster more appealing without having to deal with starting from scratch again. Moving to the 2x skill/timer system won't suddenly make everyone super OP, in fact epic is already 2x, so you'd only be seeing benefits from not having to lengthen the timer as long as possible to gain the most per tick. It still requires a significant investment of time and with the curve adds up to PvP ready skills and equipment faster, meaning new players get into PvP faster, recuperating after losses is quicker, and less focus on downtime But back to the transfer requests, I'm curious as to why individuals want them, whether its for security in knowing that regardless of what happens with epic their account will remain useful or whether you've found the PvE play style preferable and would like to return to that. So if you want to leave your thoughts on that feel free to do so. As the discussion is ongoing we're using feedback from all areas, such as this thread and the numerous conversations on Discord. It's not a no, and we haven't said no 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 24 minutes ago, Retrograde said: But back to the transfer requests, I'm curious as to why individuals want them, whether its for security in knowing that regardless of what happens with epic their account will remain useful or whether you've found the PvE play style preferable and would like to return to that. So if you want to leave your thoughts on that feel free to do so. As the discussion is ongoing we're using feedback from all areas, such as this thread and the numerous conversations on Discord. It's not a no, and we haven't said no Cause freedom have a pvp server too.. If quiet on Epic I just log into Chaos. Swiped my card to get a character there (f**k regrind) but would prefer if I would be able to use my own character on both.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 32 minutes ago, Retrograde said: But back to the transfer requests, I'm curious as to why individuals want them, whether its for security in knowing that regardless of what happens with epic their account will remain useful or whether you've found the PvE play style preferable and would like to return to that. So if you want to leave your thoughts on that feel free to do so. As the discussion is ongoing we're using feedback from all areas, such as this thread and the numerous conversations on Discord. It's not a no, and we haven't said no Because I don't want to play on Epic anymore. Is that really so hard to grasp? The ENTIRE POINT of this update, as I understand it, is to give Freedom Players the OPTION to play on PvP and be able to not have to regrind in order to do so. And you are LITERALLY telling us that Epic players do not have the right to do the same. Why can't I get to CHOOSE to switch to Freedom without a regrind because I do not want to play on PvP anymore? Oh my gawd how is this such an alien concept... You are letting Freedom choose to casually switch to PvP with no grind, but forbidding Epic from switching to Freedom to avoid PvP without a regrind. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 that's not hard to grasp at all, the reason for asking is for a better idea of the individual reasons why people want it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, Retrograde said: that's not hard to grasp at all, the reason for asking is for a better idea of the individual reasons why people want it. I like you Retro, I do. I think you are a great person, and you are doing a great job in your position on staff. I have worked with you in the past, and I know people that consider you a close and personal friend. You are good people. That being said, the casual way that you and staff have been handling this incredible injustice against Epic players is quite frankly horrifying. Why should the reasons for wanting fair treatment matter at all? Does that change that its fair treatment? You are completely changing the entire Epic cluster from the ground up mechanically and giving the players that live there no choice in that. You are confining them and their efforts to that cluster while granting complete freedom of movement to another playerbase which has shown little to no interest in playing there. On the hopes that they will now take an interest. And people seem to think you are doing this because you think this will help Epic. Like you are giving us a gift. That we should be grateful for this wonderful and generous thing you are doing for us. I am appalled at all of that. Its incredibly insulting and terrifying. I feel powerless as others get to decide my fate. And in a game like Wurm where players are supposed to be empowered to choose how to play however they want, that's horrifying. Why should I continue playing a game that does this? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 I think you've missed the point about this still being in discussion, nothing has been decided yet. The reason for asking for individual reasons why allows us to better identify a way to do this that achieves the goals of those who give feedback that still fits in line with our goals. We are not confining players to epic, we are continuing to discuss options and come up with a solution that suits everyone. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 as for myself, i am really excited for these changes, cause it means i can pasue from grinding my freedom account. epic will have a boost in activity, and i really love the idea. however, other than epic gaining a sudden boost, you kind of have to take these changes with a grain of salt. freedomers can, without having grinded on epic at all, just come over and have a 1:1 copy....i don't blame the people here that said it's a huge "###### you!" for us epic players. i would have been forced to buy a freedom account for like 400-500€ or start to grind a new one and stay behind for 2 years. don't get me wrong, i am excited as ###### for these changes, but it's not gonna be enough. i will always have the thought of "what happens if people want to start grinding on freedom again?" epic won't be anything else than a sandbox after this update, and i am not allowed to play with the big boys on freedom :/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Personally, while I was all for 'merge' at one stage, I never mentioned why. And a year ago my opinion was different to what it is now. Now that I have a child of my own I believe being in the PvP community would be too demanding while I have to leave my chair every 10 seconds to see what he's up to! A year ago, my needs and wants for the merge were entirely selfish, but now all I want to do is enjoy the game. With alot of the new features added to the pve side of the game I've come to love this part of the game. While I still like PvP, I simply have no time for it unless it's a fast paced challenge like type of play, and even then I'd have to be quick at what I'm doing haha. I'd pay for this game again if I were to move my epic account to freedom and keep its skills. I happily donate to WU servers often so in ways I'm still paying for wurm! So re subbing isn't my problem. I simply don't want to invest another 3 years into the game. Edited October 14, 2017 by Drastox Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Retrograde said: that's not hard to grasp at all, the reason for asking is for a better idea of the individual reasons why people want it. i want it because ive spent hundreds of days playtime on my MAIN character, and even though I've skilled it according to the curve (skills at 75 to 80 instead of going all the way to 90 in most, in fact my new account on chaos I've skilled more to 90 than I have on my epic toon ) and im going to be very gimped on freedom, this is my account, my avatar and it represents me and the work I've put into the game for many years and I would rather continue to build on that instead of anything else also my second reason is that, in the event these epic changes fail to keep epic afoot in the long run, I don't want to go through this process of feeling like a 2nd class citizen for 2 years again sitting on a server with an average population of 3 people(this is no exaggeration) waiting for changes thirdly, after testing the 2x timer in wu epic is basically going to turn into a challenge cluster from what I can see, everybody is going to be hitting 90 in skills within a couple hours of spamming rivets or spamming war arrow heads, kindlings etc. I want nothing to do with that type of gameplay with a character that I put hundreds of days playtime into. I enjoy the endurance aspect of grinding a character, I just didn't like the barriers in place with moon metals, sorcery, sotg etc..but this 2x timer combined with WU Skill gain (I wouldn't mind seeing just the wu skill gain added) totally turns the cluster upside down for the few veterans that were left playing on it Edited October 14, 2017 by platinumteef 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 As the other people say, its totally absurd to give all freedomers access to epic with a copy but not vice versa. Thats how you treat second class citizens. At the same time you change how skilling works on EPIC, and yes wu skilling is much faster, so all this is a extremly hard pill to swallow. If you only give one side the convert option it should obviously be us on epic. I mean you change everything about how we play, invite freedom with free skills but do not let us leave? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 Again, havent said no, just working out details of crossing from a 2x skillgain server to a 1x skillgain server 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 Just now, Retrograde said: Again, havent said no, just working out details of crossing from a 2x skillgain server to a 1x skillgain server Lol its insulting how little our playtime is worth for you guys. At this time, with all the things we had to endure, its a 1:1 transfer or nothing. Good bye Wurm if if you give freedom a 1:1 transfer, change everything about skilling and not give us a 1:1 transfer. Its even more logical to give us a effective skill transfer then a nerf, but that is okay, I think everyone will settle for a 1:1 transfer. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 13 minutes ago, Retrograde said: Again, havent said no, just working out details of crossing from a 2x skillgain server to a 1x skillgain server [13:06:35] You have played 291 days, 12 hours and 2 minutes. and still getting treated like 2nd rate citizen.. Wurm implemented the apartheid system long time ago. Now lets get rid of it and let us epic players transfer our characters out from the official WU server Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, Retrograde said: Again, havent said no, just working out details of crossing from a 2x skillgain server to a 1x skillgain server and please consider that its not just "2x" there are many skills, as you know, that don't quite properly translate into "2x" on epic most creation skills function quite poorly on Epic for skilling, then there is the aspect of double skill gain bonus on freedom all the way to 95 fairly easily, try that on epic please. there are just a handful of skills that are properly translated into directly being twice as fast, mining is the main example as the range of difficulty offered by veins and tool QL makes it so thats why theres one guy spamming on every epic thread "WHAT ABOUT MINING, WHAT ABOUT MINING" yea dude, we get it, 50% tick ratio all the way to 100, cool. now go try something that you can't adjust the difficulty properly all the way to 100 to maintain a 50% tick ratio 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) You could also motivate it by pointing out that freedom players could focus how ever much they wanted on safe skilling while we had no safe skilling, would be abrupted by raids and PVP and could not grind safely. So they, on freedom, actually had faster skills, if you compare how fast a player reached high skil on freedom to epic I can guarantee that freedom is faster. But how fast it is shouldnt be the issue. Its our cluster that you are changing. If anybody should get a chance to convert it should be the people on the server that you are changing - not the guys who gets to keep their playstyle and server. How this is so hard to realize is unbeliveble. Poor customer service, on this subject and so far, is puting it nicely. Edited October 14, 2017 by permo 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 I'm not against letting epic people come to freedom. I'm against the idea that you somehow think you deserve to keep your skills which you gained easier. If we do a somewhat fair transfer it's all fine with me and probably many others. But demanding you get double the skill for doing half the work is complete ######. skill after 920000 actions: 77.397788 skill after 1840000 actions: 90.006218 Lets say you would keep 1380000 actions, which is not completely overpowered and still good value for your work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, platinumteef said: and please consider that its not just "2x" there are many skills, as you know, that don't quite properly translate into "2x" on epic most creation skills function quite poorly on Epic for skilling, then there is the aspect of double skill gain bonus on freedom all the way to 95 fairly easily, try that on epic please. there are just a handful of skills that are properly translated into directly being twice as fast, mining is the main example as the range of difficulty offered by veins and tool QL makes it so thats why theres one guy spamming on every epic thread "WHAT ABOUT MINING, WHAT ABOUT MINING" yea dude, we get it, 50% tick ratio all the way to 100, cool. now go try something that you can't adjust the difficulty properly all the way to 100 to maintain a 50% tick ratio I very well know that, but you all assume you deserve to keep all your skills while it is in fact easier for many skills on epic. What makes you think you deserve to keep all your skills exactly when it has been easier to grind alot of them? Can anyone go link my that gomeo or whatever account, wasnt that crazy overskilled like 3 years ago? in such a short time? or was that all a fake? What about the 90 ML, SD, BC that some people have using "features" in the game? How many people on freedom have 90+ ML/SD, let alone BC. Yes, Body Stamina should get a small boost if you transfer to freedom. Edit: And you name creation skills. Really. Yes, they probably aren't perfect but they arent horrible either. If you get at least 26% tickrate on a creation skill, you gain skill faster than you do on freedom. And how many creation skills do even get below that point ? Edited October 14, 2017 by whykillme Edit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 36 minutes ago, whykillme said: I'm not against letting epic people come to freedom. I'm against the idea that you somehow think you deserve to keep your skills which you gained easier. If we do a somewhat fair transfer it's all fine with me and probably many others. But demanding you get double the skill for doing half the work is complete ######. skill after 920000 actions: 77.397788 skill after 1840000 actions: 90.006218 Lets say you would keep 1380000 actions, which is not completely overpowered and still good value for your work. Oh, I don't deserve them do I? I don't deserve my skills that I've spent the past 5 years grinding? I don't deserve them, despite holding onto an empty server for a year in the hopes that it might pick back up again? Oftentimes being the only person online on my server. But I don't deserve them, right? My deed's gone, my group's gone, my items are gone, my animals are gone. But I don't deserve my skills? I'm sorry, but we absolutely do deserve our skills. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Retrograde said: Again, havent said no, just working out details of crossing from a 2x skillgain server to a 1x skillgain server Then why is Freedom getting a 1 to 1 transfer. If Epic skill gain is so lopsided and disproportionate why aren't all Freedom skills getting an automatic x2 on Epic during the transfer. Its such blatant hypocrisy that I'm shocked I have to say this. if Freedom is getting a 1:1 transfer and NOT getting a bonus to their skills (because they are obviously the master race and deserve better treatment). Then why would Epic receive any sort of nerf AT ALL when transferring over? That is adding insult to injury. If Freedom is being so degraded as not being honored for their master race skill gain, then why would Epic receive a double blow and get a skill nerf? If you are seriously going to offer a 50% skill transfer then do not bother. Do Not Offer This. Because I will quit. You would turn my 95 Leatherworking into 48? Are you serious? I could get 48 Leatherworking in a month on Freedom. Its so insulting that I will quit. I'm not going to acknowledge whykillme because they having nothing but hatred and bile for this topic and do not deserve a voice in this discussion. Edited October 14, 2017 by Maxthx 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) whykillme is just a joke, ignore him and that's that saying that we don't deserve skills we spent time on just as much as a freedom player commited time to skilling up something is just utter ###### utilizing the double skillgain on freedom is way faster than skilling on epic, i tried it and hit 70 blacksmithing in 3 days of grinding yes it was 3x 12hrs days, but that being said, on epic it took me almost a week back then the sheer fact you can get materials to skill with in a matter of seconds after posting in trade chat is just another point but no, whykillme just comes around the corner and posts some ###### about actions taken to reach a certain point.... take that amount of actions taken on freedom and divide it by 2 buddy, cause that's what you are going to end up with when you efficiently grind Edited October 14, 2017 by Quicktor 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 @Retrograde we're not all knuckledragging, adderall quaffing kill farmers. We do appreciate the rest of the game. It's safe to say the ones still active on epic are not "all about the pvp". 6 hours ago, Retrograde said: Moving to the 2x skill/timer system won't suddenly make everyone super OP, in fact epic is already 2x, so you'd only be seeing benefits from not having to lengthen the timer as long as possible to gain the most per tick. It still requires a significant investment of time and with the curve adds up to PvP ready skills and equipment faster, meaning new players get into PvP faster, recuperating after losses is quicker, and less focus on downtime But it will be much faster (up to 6-8x compared to now for the difficult skills?), less nuanced and borderline trivial. If you announced this change for freedom what do you think the response would be? Yay faster skilling! across the board? Or would you lose a significant proportion of your more dedicated players? Also I wish you'd stop saying epic is 2x, it's not that simple and you know it, it just fires up the freedom brigade unnecessarily. 6 hours ago, Retrograde said: But back to the transfer requests, I'm curious as to why individuals want them, whether its for security in knowing that regardless of what happens with epic their account will remain useful or whether you've found the PvE play style preferable and would like to return to that. So if you want to leave your thoughts on that feel free to do so. As the discussion is ongoing we're using feedback from all areas, such as this thread and the numerous conversations on Discord. I don't want to play on a WU style server. This change makes all my work on Czar a waste of time and I think my predictions in the other thread are going to come true. I want out. Transfer or not, if these changes are made, I won't be playing on epic any more. It's just a question of whether I continue Czar's journey on the other cluster or not. 3 minutes ago, Maxthx said: If you are seriously going to offer a 50% skill transfer then do not bother. Do Not Offer This. Because I will quit. You would turn my 95 Leatherworking into 48? Are you serious? I could get 48 Leatherworking in a month on Freedom. Its so insulting that I will quit. Agreed, I want 1:1 as compensation. And don't forget that is still a nerf. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 7 minutes ago, Maxthx said: Then why is Freedom getting a 1 to 1 transfer. If Epic skill gain is so lopsided and disproportionate why aren't all Freedom skills getting an automatic x2 on Epic during the transfer. Its such blatant hypocrisy that I'm shocked I have to say this. if Freedom is getting a 1:1 transfer and NOT getting a bonus to their skills (because they are obviously the master race and deserve better treatment). Then why would Epic receive any sort of nerf AT ALL when transferring over? That is adding insult to injury. If Freedom is being so degraded as not being honored for their master race skill gain, then why would Epic receive a double blow and get a skill nerf? If you are seriously going to offer a 50% skill transfer then do not bother. Do Not Offer This. Because I will quit. You would turn my 95 Leatherworking into 48? Are you serious? I could get 48 Leatherworking in a month on Freedom. Its so insulting that I will quit. I'm going going to acknowledge Whykillme because they having nothing but hatred and bile for this topic and do not deserve a voice in this discussion. the only thing i know, is im over on chaos getting 90's in about 10 days average abusing double skill gain method, something that i couldn't do on epic.. I've gotten more 90s on freedom in the last 3 months than I have on epic in the years I've played it took me 8 days to hit 70 metallurgy on freedom, Im like #6 if i uploaded to niarja lol but yea, my epic skills that I spent years on, I don't deserve those because they're not worthy. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, QueenRocks said: Fact is there are precious few epic players that have lived their wurm life there and stuck it out on a declining cluster, and they should not be punished for doing so. For those players it would be more than fair to transfer to freedom on effective skill. You are very kind to your epic brothers and sisters, but transferring on our curved effective skills might be a little bit too far. I can live with a 1:1 transfer for our actual skills and losing the curve. Edited October 14, 2017 by Czartemp 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 31 minutes ago, Maxthx said: If you are seriously going to offer a 50% skill transfer then do not bother. Do Not Offer This. Because I will quit. You would turn my 95 Leatherworking into 48? Are you serious? I could get 48 Leatherworking in a month on Freedom. Its so insulting that I will quit. Thats... that's not how it works at all. as you gain skill tick size shrinks, so while 47.5 might be 95/2 it's not halfway in terms of ticks. Since ticks get smaller as you gain skill it means that it might be 50 ticks to go from 1-5 skill, but 500 ticks to go from 5 to 10 (arbitrary numbers) so halving wouldnt put you down near 5. But aside from that, the only reason I pointed out the 2x skillgain difference was to highlight why it's not so straight forward. It wont be halved to 48, you can rest easy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
