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Maxthx

One Time Skill Transfer from Epic to Freedom

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I say don't do it.. they say pvp is dead..reading about this topic for months i say the pvp is real on the forums!! let them war on the forums!! :ph34r:

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If it turns out that you can level to cap faster on Epic you'll find people just camping out there till they've grinded up. Again idk the fine details but achieving 90 in a skill on Freedom, if in fact is slower and more difficult, devalues it if it's brought across from epic for par. It would essentially make the freedom servers a retirement server. You've grinded what you want to where you want and want to join the general populous that are like yourself. 

 

This isnt spoken from experience but instead from a viewpoint of theory. 

 

While I'm not saying there shouldn't be some form of compensation for their investment of time in the game and giving them a leg up when they across, a 1:1 exchange wouldn't be doing right by your Freedom population. Those who invested more time into grinding their skills at a slower pace. 4 years grinding as opposed to 8.

 

Maybe something like a 10% or a 15% loss on moving across would satiate both sides? 

 

Just spitting ideas out. 

Edited by Tehangel2

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45 minutes ago, Firestarter said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because the code says so, doesn't always make it so in WO.

 

I'd say those who have actually tried both sides have more experience with the matter than those who have only looked at the code.

Everyones saying that, but im asking the GMs to help me TEST this, to get NUMBERS, PROOF, and none of you wants me to do that, WHY IS THAT?

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38 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Everyones saying that, but im asking the GMs to help me TEST this, to get NUMBERS, PROOF, and none of you wants me to do that, WHY IS THAT?

I don't want to sound like an insensitive muppet, but GM's won't assist you with that. If you want to do a test like that, it'd be up to you to set it up.

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Why wouldnt they assist me with that? Its just to test, the acc we test on can be deleted after. Devs might.

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Just now, whykillme said:

Why wouldnt they assist me with that? Its just to test, the acc we test on can be deleted after. Devs might.

There's a few reasons. Doing so would set a precedent. "Well you did it for him, why can't I have it done too?".

 

The other reason I can think of off the top of my head is that a fair few others have tested it already of their own accord, you could ask them about their experience.

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15 minutes ago, Firestarter said:

There's a few reasons. Doing so would set a precedent. "Well you did it for him, why can't I have it done too?".

 

The other reason I can think of off the top of my head is that a fair few others have tested it already of their own accord, you could ask them about their experience.

Its not about experience. Its about facts.

 

What did they do, what tools did they use, what quality, what enchants, etc etc. There are so many factors. And i'm pretty sure if you optimize what youre doing for the specific cluster you are on, epic simply is faster. And i am willing to prove it if someone would help me so i don't have to invest 150$ to do it myself.

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I still to this day do not understand why we are arguing what's faster or not.  We can literally get 90 body strength with a bunch of numbers on a plastic card instantly.  As long as we can buy accounts with no penalty to the skill there should -NEVER- be a skill nerf to either cluster.  Guess what, I don't think theres even an account on Epic with 90 body strength, I've been on epic since the start and I don't.

 

To me, an ideal character and not full cluster merge is this:

- 1:1 skills no nerf, tied to the account and not the cluster

- For dual cluster skill sets, figure out a way to combine both skill sets in compensation.  This might not be truly fair but to keep it simple take the lower of the two, divide by 10 and combine it.  90 epic 90 freedom becomes 99 combined.  50 epic 70 freedom becomes 75 combined.  70 epic 50 freedom becomes 75 combined too.  Can cap it at 99 or 99.9 or something so some people don't get instant 100

- Combine karma to tie it to the account.  Those that have bought or gained karma on freedom would be able to use it on epic.  Those that gained karma on epic would be able to use it on freedom.  Those that want it on epic can buy from freedom, win win.  Those that want it on freedom can try out valrei and get karma to use on freedom, win win.

- Tie tomes to account.  Yes this might be controversial but instead of arguing which cluster has a better time for tomes lets just move forward.  People that have spent thousands of euros on tomes on freedom obviously will benefit from using them on epic.  People that have spent years and thousands of karma on epic/valrei to get tomes obviously will benefit from using them on freedom.  This also encourages freedom to try out valrei and play both clusters to get tomes to use on freedom as well as complete personal goals etc.  To handle duplicate tomes cross cluster, the player would have to pick which cluster of tomes to use for both, and the ones overridden would appear as single use tomes in inventory on the cluster that they are wiped.  So if I have a red tome on freedom and epic, and I pick to keep epic, I'd get a 1 charge red tome in inventory on freedom.  If i pick to keep freedom, I'd get a 1 charge red tome in inventory on epic.

- Merge affinities to tie to the account.  There shouldn't really be any plus or minus to this, especially when freedom has a market to sell affinities, and people have purchased/earned affinities

- Med path, easy solution is to merge path whatever side doesn't matter, just give a one time option to swap path, this covers anyone wanting to be insanity here and knowledge there, or whatever.  If it's not acceptable to have knowledge skillgain in one place and a pvp bonus in another then just fully merge it and let us pick which or one time use path swap covers it still.

- Faith, tbh it can be left as is.  Yes, having priest on one and not the other with tied skillset leads to being able to grind religion and crafting skills at the same time but this is already possible with dual faith on chaos/freedom but wouldn't allow the benefit of crafting your own items where you need it as a priest

 

For the love of god don't totally change the core mechanics of the game (epic) after 6 years to the challenge/wu skill gain system.  The system we have works at the core, it just needs tweaks which is better to fix a working system than to totally alienate it from the "main" game.  You can even do changes like for example pvp related gear, weapons, armor, shields, horse gear, arrows, they create at skill/2 as long as the material ql allows.  This is already possible with certain items like mallets and carving knives (you can literally create them at 100ql) and wooden shields can create 70-80+ ql. 

Edited by MrGARY
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Ok so people need to stop talking in base skill numbers because that's not really how exponential curves work, flat % increases/decreases are always going to be broken, if you are going to do anything you need to convert the skill into equivalent total skill ticks, then assess the difference in tick rates for each skill, as it is possible to achieve good tick rates on some skills even at high levels and not with others. So you work out the number of skill ticks they have got and then convert it to freedom numbers, possibly with adjustment factors for each skill where tick rates are significantly lower. As far as combining duplicate skills, just taking the higher could work or taking the same approach calculating total skill ticks adding them together and working out the new skill.

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- 1:1 skills no nerf, tied to the account and not the cluster

- For dual cluster skill sets, figure out a way to combine both skill sets in compensation.  This might not be truly fair but to keep it simple take the lower of the two, divide by 10 and combine it.  90 epic 90 freedom becomes 99 combined.  50 epic 70 freedom becomes 75 combined.  70 epic 50 freedom becomes 75 combined too

 

---


Ideal for you becuase you grinded all easy skills on epic. Lets be realistic here and look at some "facts".

 

skill after 920000 actions: 77.397788

skill after 1840000 actions: 90.006218

skill after 2760000 actions: 95.243111

skill after 4790000 actions: 99.000480

 

Basically, this means 1840000 actions on freedom for 90 skill.

This means 920000 actions on Epic to also get 90 skill (not effective, becuase you have double the skillgain). if you keep your tickrate at the correct amount.

This means 90 skill on freedom + 90 skill on epic = 2760000 which is 95.243111 skill. 

 

So if you have 90 on Epic, and convert to freedom, you should get 77.4 skill on Freedom. This is the same amount of work 

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From what I understand the whole point of this is to let people join epic without being held back by the regrind, since epic's playerbase is so narrow. Increase the playerbase there and get some action.

If the current residents don't even wanna play there and move to freedom, maybe there's an deeper problem than a skill transfer can solve.

 

 

Either way, grinding on epic IS easier, up to a certain point, where the difficulty becomes hard to achieve for an efficient grind; but if you know how to raise the difficulty it is a lot faster. It's just a matter of figuring out how to raise the difficulty, which because of the higher effective skill will be different than on freedom. There are ways to increase difficulty of just about everything but if you're just purely going on he said, she said, then you don't have a good solid way of comparing the two clusters and their skillgain. 

 

 

 

With that said, let the current half dozen active epic players with their skills come over to freedom, it's not like there's hundreds of them. As long as it's a one time thing that's limited to a certain time or date I don't see a problem. As long as it doesn't become a way to quickly get that 2x skillgain bonus on epic and then pop back with your skills to freedom.

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34 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Ideal for you becuase you grinded all easy skills on epic. Lets be realistic here and look at some "facts".

 

Maybe you forgot that some people grinded the same/higher skills on their account before epic even released.  But lets be realistic here and look at some "facts".

 

Body strength on freedom after swiping a plastic card once and 0 actions: 90

Basically this means 0 actions on freedom for 90 body strength

 

With the proposed plan in the news this would mean 90 body strength on epic with 0 actions.  To be fair to everyone the body strength on freedom and epic should be 19.5 instead of 90 as it is the same amount of work as 0 actions on either cluster.  Crazy idea huh.

 

We can sit here and be petty throwing numbers at each other wanting epic players to get screwed over for whatever selfish reasons there are or we can help the game survive.  I'm sorry if my blacksmithing is too high and ill gotten for your tastes to compete with the hundreds or thousands of 90+ skilled blacksmiths on freedom but we pay for the same game.  Actually, we don't, we've been forced to pay more for the same game as freedom while people from freedom want us to remain second class players.  For the last 6 years we have to pay 3x the cost of guards for our deeds because we actually need them to enforce deed permissions

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You do know that a bought account is an account that someone has done actions on right.

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Just now, MrGARY said:

 

Maybe you forgot that some people grinded the same/higher skills on their account before epic even released.  But lets be realistic here and look at some "facts".

 

Body strength on freedom after swiping a plastic card once and 0 actions: 90

Basically this means 0 actions on freedom for 90 body strength

 

With the proposed plan in the news this would mean 90 body strength on epic with 0 actions.  To be fair to everyone the body strength on freedom and epic should be 19.5 instead of 90 as it is the same amount of work as 0 actions on either cluster.  Crazy idea huh.

 

We can sit here and be petty throwing numbers at each other wanting epic players to get screwed over for whatever selfish reasons there are or we can help the game survive.  I'm sorry if my blacksmithing is too high and ill gotten for your tastes to compete with the hundreds or thousands of 90+ skilled blacksmiths on freedom but we pay for the same game.  Actually, we don't, we've been forced to pay more for the same game as freedom while people from freedom want us to remain second class players.  For the last 6 years we have to pay 3x the cost of guards for our deeds because we actually need them to enforce deed permissions

 

Comparing actual effort of grinding vs buying an account is quite the dumbest argument I've read so far. Surely you could just play WU instead and then it only costs a single dollar on humble bundle and you can set all your skills to 99 instantly! Sorry on behalf of all the freedom players that don't really want their accounts and efforts to be devalued because you picked a server with 2x faster skillgain, and then decided that you don't like it anymore? Again, the whole point of this change is for epic to survive, not freedom. There's not that big of a problem with player numbers on that side of the cluster. At least try to come up with a better argument than "just buy an account". I'd say that figuring out the skill that would've been gained for the same amount of actions on the cluster you are trying to transfer to, seems fair enough. You don't have to start from scratch that way while abandoning the servers that they're trying to revive.

 

There's nothing petty about throwing numbers if the whole suggestion is literally to have numbers transfer

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Oye gary, so dadd was bought with 90+ body, how many other 90 body toons have been bought or even exist? This seems to be your biggest issue? (I'm opposed to toon sales for the record). The fact you're hung up on the sale of dadd's toon is a little odd.

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2 minutes ago, Webba said:

You do know that a bought account is an account that someone has done actions on right.

 

2 minutes ago, Alyeska said:

Comparing actual effort of grinding vs buying an account is quite the dumbest argument I've read so far.

 

So what you're saying is that 6 years of me grinding on Epic is unacceptable to transfer 1:1 to freedom and very unfair...

But I can go buy a better or equal account on Freedom instead and that's perfectly fine because someone else did the work even if I put absolutely zero effort into it?

And does this mean that you're also against freedom skill transfers to epic because it's unfair?

 

10 minutes ago, Alyeska said:

Sorry on behalf of all the freedom players that don't really want their accounts and efforts to be devalued because you picked a server with 2x faster skillgain, and then decided that you don't like it anymore?

 

Maybe those of us that played epic don't really want our accounts and efforts to be devalued because people think they know better and assume that every single player grinds with such perfection and efficiency that their effort is not as significant as on freedom.  Lets also not ignore that it's far easier on freedom to use the free double skillgain to equal epic's skillgain, where on epic it reaches points where it's pretty much just not possible.  And I'm sure you can find in my post history for 99% of epic's lifespan I've fiercely defended epic and been very anti-merge.  It's not my fault that epic died and was cannibalized, nor do I feel like it will have a lengthy revival with freedom coming in with 0 effort gained skills.  I just want to be allowed to go back to the cluster that I started on without my accounts being nerfed and treated like second class players

 

2 minutes ago, Pingpong said:

Oye gary, so dadd was bought with 90+ body, how many other 90 body toons have been bought or even exist? This seems to be your biggest issue? (I'm opposed to toon sales for the record). The fact you're hung up on the sale of dadd's toon is a little odd.

 

I use it because it's a very good example to prove my point.  I don't know how many accounts have 90 body str, but I do know that Freedom has tons of accounts with 60-70+ (account sales, history, and niarja), and I'm going to go on a good guess that there's way way more than on epic.  Yes logically freedom should have many more than epic because it has a much higher population, but then the point there becomes that the amount coming from epic would be so insignificant that it doesn't affect the total much on freedom

 

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2 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

So what you're saying is that 6 years of me grinding on Epic is unacceptable to transfer 1:1 to freedom and very unfair...

But I can go buy a better or equal account on Freedom instead and that's perfectly fine because someone else did the work even if I put absolutely zero effort into it?

And does this mean that you're also against freedom skill transfers to epic because it's unfair?

I fail to see why you grinding on your account is more valid than someone else grinding on an account. I agree account selling is not healthy but its a thing and it is not really the topic of conversation.

You seem to misunderstand my point about why a 1:1 transfer doesn't make sense for every skill, the only way of doing it fairly is to calculate the time it takes to get each skill on epic and freedom and then provide an equivalent on freedom. This will mean higher skills on epic (95+) probably don't take too much of a hit as the tick rate is lower but go down a bit if you have literally spent less time on the same skills, but lower skills which are easier go down a fair chunk. Applying this to your freedom character where you have shared skills what I would suggest is work out total time used on skill grinding, or a proxy for this, and work out what that would equate to on a freedom character.

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19 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

 

 

So what you're saying is that 6 years of me grinding on Epic is unacceptable to transfer 1:1 to freedom and very unfair...

But I can go buy a better or equal account on Freedom instead and that's perfectly fine because someone else did the work even if I put absolutely zero effort into it?

And does this mean that you're also against freedom skill transfers to epic because it's unfair?

 

 

 

 

Yes, yes, no.

 

Yes, because your grind was easier, and therefor it should transfer 1:1. Comparing the actual time that it took to get that skill and applying to Freedom, would be better.

 

Yes, because someone put in that effort and didn't have an easier 2x increased skillgain, but that has nothing to do with accounts transferring as a game mechanic. 

 

Partially, I am not against transfers, I am not in favor of 1:1 transfers without looking at how easy or difficult said skill was compared to the cluster you are bringing it to.

 

 

Hopefully that clears up the confusion you are having.

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34 minutes ago, Webba said:

You seem to misunderstand my point about why a 1:1 transfer doesn't make sense for every skill, the only way of doing it fairly is to calculate the time it takes to get each skill on epic and freedom and then provide an equivalent on freedom. This will mean higher skills on epic (95+) probably don't take too much of a hit as the tick rate is lower but go down a bit if you have literally spent less time on the same skills, but lower skills which are easier go down a fair chunk. Applying this to your freedom character where you have shared skills what I would suggest is work out total time used on skill grinding, or a proxy for this, and work out what that would equate to on a freedom character.

 

Lets entertain the idea of determining the amount of time that went into grinding a skill.  How do we do it fairly? 

 

Theoretically, an efficient grinder on freedom utilizing double skill gain will get to 50 blacksmithing faster than a normal inefficient player on epic, so nerfing the epic player to "match" freedom in this case is not fair.  If we compare a normal player on freedom and an efficient grinder on epic, epic will definitely be faster, so it could be said it's fair to nerf in this case to match.  But then when we get to 90, where we're already past where the curve hurts grinding, how do we start to compare that?  What if a freedomer was efficient and got 90 blacksmithing fast with a purposeful grind, where an epic player didn't grind at all and simply just imped his own tools and his villager's tools and got 90 after 3 years of imping 70ql tools?  What's fair there to nerf the epic player? 

 

That just covers crafting skills done by simple imping where if we're assuming neither use the double skillgain, it's simply just imping the right ql items, but just for a simple fun reminder, as you're at 90 skill on epic you need to hit 99.23ql to get double skillgain where freedom just needs 92.3ql.  But, then we have to consider some skills are not curved at all nor doubled skillgain as far as I'm aware, like faith and fight skill.  Then there are skills that are not curved in use but are curved in skilling, such as meditating or lockpicking, where you are having a far worse off time grinding on epic than on freedom since the difficulty used for grinding is based on the effective skill but the skill used for actual use like advancing is the actual skill (this means grinding at 70 med on freedom is on par with mid40 med grinding on epic difficulty wise but you still need 70 skill for the same path level).  Then there are the skills that are creation only and extremely limited in difficulty options that bottom out fast on epic due to the curve, such as locksmithing, coalmaking, etc.  How do we fairly balance all of the above?  Are we going to make assumptions that every single player is a perfect efficient grinding machine, and as such nerf skills where applicable, but give skill where applicable as well?

Edited by MrGARY
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SOunds like the freedomers want their cake as well as ours (epics) and CC jsut gave it to them and theya re still arguing about fairness.

Edited by Rhianna
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they are trying to figure out how to bring Epic to freedom, it isn't going to NOT happen, it's just not clear on HOW it should happen. It's better to wait for a more clear idea than receive a foggy half assed one which won't work.

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14 minutes ago, Shrimpiie said:

No.

-1


well it's happening so, oh well. Thanks for the feed back.

Edited by Mclavin

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So if an epic to freedom transfer is allowed before our home for many years becomes a jokey arcade WU style lolsupergain server, infested with hyperpowered freedom characters. We limp to freedom, starting pretty much from scratch, having lost the curve - in the case of many skills, on most accounts, losing the ability to make 90+ql items. We keep our gimped body stats - gimped as a result of epic skilling eccentricities and bizarre decisions by rolf early on. And then freedomers want to slap yet another nerf on us. Where is the love?

 

 

Edited by Czartemp
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I would like it if all the effort epic players put into their account wasn't wiped away with a silly unnecessary update to the skilling system. people play wurm online instead of wurm u because of the different skilling system. if epic gets turned into wurm u then what is the point of it anymore? just make an official wurm u server and leave epic's skilling system alone.  please.

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