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Maxthx

One Time Skill Transfer from Epic to Freedom

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From my own experience I was saying for a long time that meditation was harder on epic to 70 and was laughed at by jeering fools. Finally the word of God has confirmed that. From my own experience allow me to share my experience with the rest

6 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Characteristics

 

Much like meditation characteristics are easier to 50 then slow down considerably, even with double tick size. It's no accident that 70 body is so rare on epic.

 

 

16 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Skills you can definetly get 2x on all the time to 100 afaik: 

Spoiler

 

Farming 

Gardening 

Dairy food making 
Hot food cooking 
Baking 
Beverages 

Milking 

Weapon smithing  (Because this skill is harder it should be possible to get 2x here)

Archery

Prayer 

Prospecting 

Short bow 
Long bow 
Medium bow

Animal taming 

Channeling 

Mining
Digging

Butchering
Carpentry

Small wooden shield
Medium wooden shield
Large wooden shield
Small metal shield
Large metal shield
Medium metal shield

Religion

Repairing

Forestry

Tracking (Assumption)

Yoyo
Puppeteering

Locksmithing

Metallurgy

 

 

 

Firstly 2x is a _theoretical_ maximum. To truly be fair, you would have to know how these skills were raised. A flat nerf might mean a few weeks

to a grinder or years for someone else. Secondly I disagree with quite a few of these you have marked as "easily" changeable difficulty.

 

The following are horrendous skills on either cluster, whose difficulty maxes out quite early on

 

Baking (not certain now after the cooking update)
Beverages (not certain now after the cooking update)

Milking 

Prayer

Butchering

Religion

Repairing

Locksmithing

Metallurgy - this one is the worst of the worst.

I'd put money on these being harder on epic beyond 40-50 something.

Beyond that I broadly agree with the list - easier on epic until very high levels.

 

27 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Other Skills:

 

Woodcutting

 

Woodcutting I would say is easier on epic until about 75 actual, then becomes a tickless nightmare, probably harder on epic after you are ticking at the 90 rate.

 

29 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Imping Skills, 1.5X because you can have someone else make 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 etc etc items for you all the way to 95. That means that until your effective is 95 you can basically grind at least at 1.5x the speed, if not more. So it is in fact faster than on freedom.

 

This almost never happens lol. Not even when epic was booming. However with imping skills you have a case for saying they are much easier, not all the way to 100, but easier until pretty high levels. You can't base your nerf by pretending that everyone on epic has a friend who stashes skilling items at ideal skill levels. Most of us still around are and have been on their own for long stretches. Something else too, 90+ improvement skills aren't all over the place on epic. Many, many people don't go past 75, because that's more than you need with the curve active. Fear us epic players flooding the market with 70ql weapons.

 

32 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Fighting/Weapon Skills, No idea. Will need to test this, assuming 2x the gains aswell.

 

Fighting was never on a seperate system, that will be 1:1. Though a very anal player might want to make a case based on harder epic mobs hehe. Weapon skills I suspect are easier all the way to the top on epic. Shield skills I am not certain about, probably irrelevant after they created a window of opportunity by nerfing afk training. Stances feel slower on epic especially past 50.

 

35 minutes ago, whykillme said:

Overall Skills, 2x:

 

Meta skills nope, excepting the ones that can be raised directly. They seem to operate in a similar fashion to characteristics. Suspect harder on epic past the mid-levels.

 

Some of the other ones you mention:

 

Paving (2x?) Suspect easier on epic until the late 80s

Coal-making (2x?) Way harder on epic to any kind of decent level, even when burning logs to 1ql.

Natural substances (1.5x)? Ditto, way harder due to lack of options.

Lock picking (2x?) Not sure myself, this one was never on the curve, but might have been affected by it like meditating. Even if it was, it just meant a few more lockpicking attempts for epic players in that 10 minute window. 1:1 most likely, despite possibly more cursing at your trainer chest for epic players who went high.

 

----

 

The nature of the system means flat nerfs and buff aren't fair. Take meditating as an example. Someone with 40 on epic probably "deserves" a nerf going to freedom, maybe to 30 or 35. Someone with 70 on epic would get a buff going to freedom, probably to 80 or thereabouts. I would expect something similar for all characteristics, not just stamina, and many other skills on top of that. What would need to be calculated is that point where grinding on epic becomes a disadvantage. For some skills that probably isn't until 90+ actual, for others its a lot sooner.

 

It's easiest to understand this looking at the higher end and why epic players were so upset that 100 titles first came to freedom only. Have you ever raised a skill to 100? Recall the tick rate at 99+? More often than not, we skill at that difficulty for 9 whole points 91-100.  Recall the tick rate at 99.99? That's us for the whole last point.  This topsy-turvy system pervades epic skilling to differing degrees on different skills and there is no simple formula available. It's a serious bit of maths, maths that would require a lot of guesswork and assumption regarding play styles, tools/enchants used and presumed knowledge of the game. If the devs are really trying to figure this out, I don't envy them.

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Watching Fire blow Niki out of the water was fun. Best thread i've read all month

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14 minutes ago, punishlife said:

Watching Fire blow Niki out of the water was fun. Best thread i've read all month

There is nothing better than arguments from the peanut gallery from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Very amusing.

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*talking about it like its a tv show* like how did niki not notice she was the one assuming... the plot for this show sucks. They need better writers

 

 

*scoffs popcorn*

 

 

add popcorn to the game

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hello can we discuss why characteristics are affected by the epic 2x skillgain now

thx

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51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

From my own experience I was saying for a long time that meditation was harder on epic to 70 and was laughed at by jeering fools. Finally the word of God has confirmed that. From my own experience allow me to share my experience with the rest

 

Much like meditation characteristics are easier to 50 then slow down considerably, even with double tick size. It's no accident that 70 body is so rare on epic.

 

  • Yes, but this is also because the persons skill they're grinding is higher. hence i said this should be more then just a half cutoff. On freedom you *could* make hundreds of 10ql weapons on an alt, and then imp them on a high skilled WS to get some decent body stats, but nobody does that ever. On epic your curve is higher so you'll get lower characteristic gains afaik, meaning you should not be nerfed completely on that. But it's definetly faster.

 

Firstly 2x is a _theoretical_ maximum. To truly be fair, you would have to know how these skills were raised. A flat nerf might mean a few weeks

to a grinder or years for someone else. Secondly I disagree with quite a few of these you have marked as "easily" changeable difficulty.

 

The following are horrendous skills on either cluster, whose difficulty maxes out quite early on

 

Baking (not certain now after the cooking update)
Beverages (not certain now after the cooking update)

Milking 

Prayer

Butchering

Religion

Repairing

Locksmithing

Metallurgy - this one is the worst of the worst.

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

I'd put money on these being harder on epic beyond 40-50 something.

Beyond that I broadly agree with the list - easier on epic until very high levels.

 

  • Baking and Beverages can be grinded to 100 with the use of mass cooking, just like HFC. This counts for both clusters. So this is easier on Epic because youd have 2x skillgain and the same difficulty. Keep in mind that 99 skill is roughly only 20% of the skill to a complete 100.
  • Milking - Sucks on both clusters yes, but youd have 2x the tick size on Epic.
  • Prayer - Same
  • Butchering - This can be grinded on epic much easier because of 2x tick size. All you need is fresh meat and some patience. Definetly 2x on Epic.
  • Religion - same as milking ?
  • Repairing - Somewhat yes and no, if you "grind" it, youd easily get 2x the tick size, but as most people don't i guess that falls away. But you can
  • Locksmithing - I have it on 90 on freedom, afaik you can keep at 50% tickrate, means 2x on Epic?
  • Metallurgy - I have it 90 on freedom, completely sucked, but if you catapult your lumps to the lowest ql possible it's not that bad. So youd still have it easier on Epic.

 

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

 

Woodcutting I would say is easier on epic until about 75 actual, then becomes a tickless nightmare, probably harder on epic after you are ticking at the 90 rate.

  • This is until 99 skill yes, then its the same for freedom basically. a 40% tickrate so youd have 80% on epic and only 40% on freedom. Hence why not a complete 2x.
51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

 

This almost never happens lol. Not even when epic was booming. However with imping skills you have a case for saying they are much easier, not all the way to 100, but easier until pretty high levels. You can't base your nerf by pretending that everyone on epic has a friend who stashes skilling items at ideal skill levels. Most of us still around are and have been on their own for long stretches. Something else too, 90+ improvement skills aren't all over the place on epic. Many, many people don't go past 75, because that's more than you need with the curve active. Fear us epic players flooding the market with 70ql weapons.

 

  • Well, i see previous posts people complaining they couldn't do it becuase you get skill faster than you imp the item. This is just me stating they are wrong and could've done it. If you think every single person on freedom does this those people are highly mistaken. I bet most people on freedom dont grind that way, which means those people grind way slower than you do on Epic where its still 2x the normal way.

 

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

 

Fighting was never on a seperate system, that will be 1:1. Though a very anal player might want to make a case based on harder epic mobs hehe. Weapon skills I suspect are easier all the way to the top on epic. Shield skills I am not certain about, probably irrelevant after they created a window of opportunity by nerfing afk training. Stances feel slower on epic especially past 50.

 

  • Yea i figured fightning was never seperate and i don't think anyone cares about that either. Doubt many people care for the weapon and shield skills to be 1:1. Still, it probably was faster. So it's not just "a few skills that are faster" that was mentioned before.

 

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

 

Meta skills nope, excepting the ones that can be raised directly. They seem to operate in a similar fashion to characteristics. Suspect harder on epic past the mid-levels.

 

  • Might also have to do with other things because other skills raise faster automatically.

 

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

Some of the other ones you mention:

 

Paving (2x?) Suspect easier on epic until the late 80s

Coal-making (2x?) Way harder on epic to any kind of decent level, even when burning logs to 1ql.

Natural substances (1.5x)? Ditto, way harder due to lack of options.

Lock picking (2x?) Not sure myself, this one was never on the curve, but might have been affected by it like meditating. Even if it was, it just meant a few more lockpicking attempts for epic players in that 10 minute window. 1:1 most likely, despite possibly more cursing at your trainer chest for epic players who went high.

 

  • Thanks for the answers. 
  • Coal Making - CoC kindlings and thousands of logs :) Just spam unfinished piles
  • NS - Early on reaches the shitty difficulty so sucks to raise

 

51 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

----

 

The nature of the system means flat nerfs and buff aren't fair. Take meditating as an example. Someone with 40 on epic probably "deserves" a nerf going to freedom, maybe to 30 or 35. Someone with 70 on epic would get a buff going to freedom, probably to 80 or thereabouts. I would expect something similar for all characteristics, not just stamina, and many other skills on top of that. What would need to be calculated is that point where grinding on epic becomes a disadvantage. For some skills that probably isn't until 90+ actual, for others its a lot sooner.

 

It's easiest to understand this looking at the higher end and why epic players were so upset that 100 titles first came to freedom only. Have you ever raised a skill to 100? Recall the tick rate at 99+? More often than not, we skill at that difficulty for 9 whole points 91-100.  Recall the tick rate at 99.99? That's us for the whole last point.  This topsy-turvy system pervades epic skilling to differing degrees on different skills and there is no simple formula available. It's a serious bit of maths, maths that would require a lot of guesswork and assumption regarding play styles, tools/enchants used and presumed knowledge of the game. If the devs are really trying to figure this out, I don't envy them.

 

  • Keep in mind that 99 skill is roughly only 20% of the skill to a complete 100. And at 99+ it's basically the same tickrate as we freedomers get, While you keep double the tick size.

 

 

Thank you for your normal reply. I added my replies.

 

It's not like i want a complete nerf for the Epic players, i do also understand that you lose your home/items. But that does not mean that you should be given something that we would have to spend much more time to achieve. I understand there needs to be some sort of compensation skill-wise. But a 1:1 seems too much in my eyes. (and many others). But simply claiming that most of the skills are much harder to raise on epic is a complete lie.

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45 minutes ago, whykillme said:
  • Baking and Beverages can be grinded to 100 with the use of mass cooking, just like HFC. This counts for both clusters. So this is easier on Epic because youd have 2x skillgain and the same difficulty. Keep in mind that 99 skill is roughly only 20% of the skill to a complete 100.
  • Milking - Sucks on both clusters yes, but youd have 2x the tick size on Epic.
  • Prayer - Same
  • Butchering - This can be grinded on epic much easier because of 2x tick size. All you need is fresh meat and some patience. Definetly 2x on Epic.
  • Religion - same as milking ?
  • Repairing - Somewhat yes and no, if you "grind" it, youd easily get 2x the tick size, but as most people don't i guess that falls away. But you can
  • Locksmithing - I have it on 90 on freedom, afaik you can keep at 50% tickrate, means 2x on Epic?
  • Metallurgy - I have it 90 on freedom, completely sucked, but if you catapult your lumps to the lowest ql possible it's not that bad. So youd still have it easier on Epic.

 

I'm just going to pick at this part because it's the bulk that needs it.  Saying we have 2x skillgain and the same difficulty clearly shows you aren't following the point.  If we are at 50 baking and both use 50 difficulty bread (idk what's ideal I'm just using an example) then no, it's not as simple as epic gets 2x skillgain.  You're grinding 50 difficulty bread at 50 skill, we're grinding 50 difficulty bread at 75 effective skill, big difference.  And if you're saying that there's options like say for hfc where we can just make larger meals to balance the difficulty, that is still more work to get the skill.

Then take for example your milking comment, it doesn't just suck on both clusters.  Unless I'm missing something, you simply cannot make a cow more difficult?  So what use is 2x skillgain everytime we milk and don't get skill because it's too easy? 0x2=0

Idk how stuff for prayer and butchering and repairing etc works.  All I know is I repair all my stuff all the time that sits in my boat and my repair skill doesn't move.  I do the same thing on freedom and I gain skill.  Both are around 80~

Locksmithing is stuck at like 99% lockpicks with a 1ql anvil very early on.  I don't know what this translates into for skill ticks, but it's not pleasant.  Most people have low skill and rely on the curve and spamming to get good locks

Metallurgy again, limited difficulty.  I used thousands and thousands and thousands of low ql lumps making brass and I didn't even bother to finish getting 50, it's awful

 

You'd have to compare how far you can reasonably manage difficulty PER skill before flat out labeling anything as "you can get double skillgain so its fine lol".  But also again, most people rely on the curve.  Without the curve they will now have underpowered skill sets that can't go making 80-90ql items anymore.  The only ones with 90 in all crafting skills are the nerds that run for titles and the slightly easier imping

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Just allow highest skills from either cluster to transfer over, back and forth ))<>((

 

This way everyone who grinded skills at great risk on a pvp server will be rewarded with a decent freedom account just like freedomers that grinded their skills in complete safety will also be rewarded with pvp account.

 

risk vs reward is where good balance is made.

pvp+increased skill gain

vs

pve

is balanced

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18 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

 

I'm just going to pick at this part because it's the bulk that needs it.  Saying we have 2x skillgain and the same difficulty clearly shows you aren't following the point.  If we are at 50 baking and both use 50 difficulty bread (idk what's ideal I'm just using an example) then no, it's not as simple as epic gets 2x skillgain.  You're grinding 50 difficulty bread at 50 skill, we're grinding 50 difficulty bread at 75 effective skill, big difference.  And if you're saying that there's options like say for hfc where we can just make larger meals to balance the difficulty, that is still more work to get the skill.

Then take for example your milking comment, it doesn't just suck on both clusters.  Unless I'm missing something, you simply cannot make a cow more difficult?  So what use is 2x skillgain everytime we milk and don't get skill because it's too easy? 0x2=0

Idk how stuff for prayer and butchering and repairing etc works.  All I know is I repair all my stuff all the time that sits in my boat and my repair skill doesn't move.  I do the same thing on freedom and I gain skill.  Both are around 80~

Locksmithing is stuck at like 99% lockpicks with a 1ql anvil very early on.  I don't know what this translates into for skill ticks, but it's not pleasant.  Most people have low skill and rely on the curve and spamming to get good locks

Metallurgy again, limited difficulty.  I used thousands and thousands and thousands of low ql lumps making brass and I didn't even bother to finish getting 50, it's awful

 

You'd have to compare how far you can reasonably manage difficulty PER skill before flat out labeling anything as "you can get double skillgain so its fine lol".  But also again, most people rely on the curve.  Without the curve they will now have underpowered skill sets that can't go making 80-90ql items anymore.  The only ones with 90 in all crafting skills are the nerds that run for titles and the slightly easier imping

 

- Baking & Beverages. If that really is how you grind HFC, Baking, Beverages, then yes i understand your point of view.

 

- I did say i agreed somewhat on repairing. If not grinding its definetly more effort to get on Epic.

 

- How many thousands of lump did you really combine for metallurgy? For your idea, it took me over 8000 combining actions to get 60 metallurgy on freedom. And around 30k to get 90.

 

What risk vs reward on a dead server?

That means all people on chaos shouldve been grinding 2x skillgain the past few years.

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1 hour ago, punishlife said:

*talking about it like its a tv show* like how did niki not notice she was the one assuming... the plot for this show sucks. They need better writers

 

 

*scoffs popcorn*

 

 

add popcorn to the game

You're all friends, so you go ahead and enjoy the laugh. ;) The writers don't get paid enough I guess.

 

~Whatever~

 

Things I do know, I have tested and have seen first hand, I'm not the only one who isn't oblivious I'm sure. 

 

1 hour ago, whykillme said:

It's not like i want a complete nerf for the Epic players, i do also understand that you lose your home/items. But that does not mean that you should be given something that we would have to spend much more time to achieve. I understand there needs to be some sort of compensation skill-wise. But a 1:1 seems too much in my eyes. (and many others). But simply claiming that most of the skills are much harder to raise on epic is a complete lie.

I'm starting to agree, they don't deserve a 1:1, I'm sure the developer's are aware of it as well. It might not even happen now.

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@whykillmeI was about to reply then Gary did along the same lines. Sometimes I think you understand the tick rate problem, sometimes not.

1 hour ago, whykillme said:
  • Baking and Beverages can be grinded to 100 with the use of mass cooking, just like HFC. This counts for both clusters. So this is easier on Epic because youd have 2x skillgain and the same difficulty. Keep in mind that 99 skill is roughly only 20% of the skill to a complete 100.
  • Milking - Sucks on both clusters yes, but youd have 2x the tick size on Epic.
  • Prayer - Same
  • Butchering - This can be grinded on epic much easier because of 2x tick size. All you need is fresh meat and some patience. Definetly 2x on Epic.
  • Religion - same as milking ?
  • Repairing - Somewhat yes and no, if you "grind" it, youd easily get 2x the tick size, but as most people don't i guess that falls away. But you can
  • Locksmithing - I have it on 90 on freedom, afaik you can keep at 50% tickrate, means 2x on Epic?
  • Metallurgy - I have it 90 on freedom, completely sucked, but if you catapult your lumps to the lowest ql possible it's not that bad. So youd still have it easier on Epic.

 

Baking and beverages aside, since I haven't properly tried a grind since cooking patch, how do you raise the difficulty of these actions? To get 2x skill we need the same tick rate as freedom. How would you raise the difficulty of milking, prayer, religion, repairing, locksmithing, metallurgy beyond what you can do on freedom?

 

1 hour ago, whykillme said:

Locksmithing - I have it on 90 on freedom, afaik you can keep at 50% tickrate, means 2x on Epic?

 

Let's assume that's true. We'd get that tick rate up to 70ish.

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11 minutes ago, Niki said:

You're all friends, so you go ahead and enjoy the laugh. ;) ight not even happen now.

 

I'm friends with practically everyone, its hard to have enemies when you spend most of your time in game chatting or making stuff for people, i'm like the shop owner from Frozen

Yoohooo big summer blowout

 

Joking aside, i will enjoy the laugh. Life's pretty bleak if you can't find the fun in anything :)

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15 minutes ago, whykillme said:

What risk vs reward on a dead server?

 

oh, so now that epic has been inactive a few months, we all skilled on a dead server, assuming you mean from the beginning here, i got you...

yeah that makes sense, totally

really

i think

yeah...

 

 

yes

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14 minutes ago, whykillme said:

- Baking & Beverages. If that really is how you grind HFC, Baking, Beverages, then yes i understand your point of view.

 

- How many thousands of lump did you really combine for metallurgy? For your idea, it took me over 8000 combining actions to get 60 metallurgy on freedom. And around 30k to get 90.

 

Baking?  I grinded pre 1.3, I got 70 by making dough with sundered 0.03ql water (not sure if it effectively goes under 1ql) because by the time we hit 30~ 100ql water becomes ridiculously easy.  Between getting skill from making dough and cooking bread iirc I made 15-30k bread.  Yes... that's a big margin, and it was years ago.  I can't check my logs because I use daily files and don't know the full time frame I spent grinding it so it's not worth checking the 45,000+ files I have in my player folder.  These were all used in hfc because we needed to make 5 item meals to bump the difficulty up (also pre 1.3).  Beverages was also pre 1.3 and I got 70 by squeezing strawberries, this took months of harvesting to get enough, unfortunately could not tell you how many either.  I know all of this is easier post 1.3...  but are we keeping this in mind?  Someone on epic will get 70 baking and 70 beverages a lot easier than I did now post 1.3.  Don't forget the people on freedom that got 90-95 beverages using jugs and brandy and then that grinding got nerfed, that's not fair to others.

 

Same as above, I can't get logs.  Memory tells me I made around 3000 brass to go from 35 to 48, prior to that was countless sessions of making steel for plate or brass/bronze for monuments so no idea

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2 hours ago, whykillme said:

It's not like i want a complete nerf for the Epic players, i do also understand that you lose your home/items. But that does not mean that you should be given something that we would have to spend much more time to achieve. I understand there needs to be some sort of compensation skill-wise. But a 1:1 seems too much in my eyes. (and many others). But simply claiming that most of the skills are much harder to raise on epic is a complete lie.

 

Alright then, so no Freedomer should be given the opportunity to transfer 1:1 to Epic either. They've got skills they've grinded for years in complete safety. They haven't needed to put up with gimped stat gains. They don't have anything planned to completely change their cluster. It would take Epic players a fair while to catch up to that.

 

I was actually in favour of a transfer from Freedom to Epic, it does seem like a way to get more players to it. However, this should also be reciprocated. Epic players should be given a 1:1 transfer to Freedom, it's the least we deserve after all.

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Started Epic at launch and have played ever since through the high's and low's. I think its great these changes are being looked at and given the history I think a 1:1 transfer would be fair due to the many reasons previously stated by long term epic players. I don't care about gear/tomes/karma etc I just want to play my character/my identity that I haved worked on in a populated community environment.

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2 hours ago, Firestarter said:

 

Alright then, so no Freedomer should be given the opportunity to transfer 1:1 to Epic either. They've got skills they've grinded for years in complete safety. They haven't needed to put up with gimped stat gains. They don't have anything planned to completely change their cluster. It would take Epic players a fair while to catch up to that.

 

I was actually in favour of a transfer from Freedom to Epic, it does seem like a way to get more players to it. However, this should also be reciprocated. Epic players should be given a 1:1 transfer to Freedom, it's the least we deserve after all.

 

KK.  Get them to stop the transfer of freedom players to Epic.  Let it stay with only the ones up there to fight when you feel like it.  That will work for more than it won't work for.

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