Posted October 14, 2017 Well, this double skillgain on characteristics is some good info, if we are talking fair, that definetly isn't. (except stamina ofcourse). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, MrGARY said: Just because people lost tons of items 10 years ago doesn't mean we cannot move forward and better the game with more reasonable behavior Better the game for who, though? Frankly, this game's livelyhood is somewhat centered around the economy. There are hundreds (not me), that would leave if the economy went to ######. Letting all of the Epic players bring all of their crap over, even if only one time, will saturate the Freedom (main) market. Sure, there are probably at max 25 current active epic players, but there are plenty of dormant accounts sitting over there, just waiting for an opportunity like unrestricted item crossing. So, who do we make happy? The 25 poor saps that chose a cluster that was doomed from the start or the hundreds of people playing this game because of the economy? Do you want an out from your prison, Gary, or are you going to get hung up on the fact that you don't get to take your meal tray and mattress with you? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 11 minutes ago, whykillme said: Well, this double skillgain on characteristics is some good info, if we are talking fair, that definetly isn't. (except stamina ofcourse). Characteristics are affected by the curve in a similar manner to meditation. They are noticeably harder to raise past 50 on epic than on freedom. A "fair" transfer would see many accounts get characteristic boosts going epic --> freedom. And before you say it, yes Bix really is that crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 37 minutes ago, As_I_Decay said: Gary, I am sympathetic to your plight, but ultimately, I am more concerned about the economy in the game. I saw it (and called it) with Chaos. They ended up bringing years worth of dusty enchanted stuff that they had accrued from the years when everyone and their brother was a champ. Tanked out the PVE economy, and quite frankly, it's never bounced back since. If it hasn't bounced back, then what's the issue. The way you go on here makes it sound like there's no economy to "ruin". Quote I hate to be cold hearted about it, but yes, you will have to give up most of your physical possessions to leave Epic. Let me remind you (and anyone else who may or may not remember) that the people of JKh and MRh had to leave behind tons of possessions when they were forced onto the newly created Independance map. We were only allowed to bring 100 items on person, 200 on boat. I sold off what I could but I left behind thousands of lamps, hundreds of tools, champ animals, the works. I had been a paying customer for years at that point. Sure, it was unfair.... but was deemed "necessary". You'll get reimbursed in full for your deeds (and I'd also say any PMK) and remaining upkeep, and the coin moves with you. You'll get over it. So you got to keep some items then? Still more than we'd get in the event of a skill transfer. Quote I wager you're not the only Epic player sitting on tomes (or moonmetal). Again, referring back to humans being opportunistic. You guys can all use your tomes up on your characters before you cross them over. Plenty of moonmetal on Chaos and PVE to be obtained, right? Oh wow! Those few tiny lumps I actually have left in my pocket will really destroy the economy! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, As_I_Decay said: Better the game for who, though? Frankly, this game's livelyhood is somewhat centered around the economy. There are hundreds (not me), that would leave if the economy went to ######. Letting all of the Epic players bring all of their crap over, even if only one time, will saturate the Freedom (main) market. Sure, there are probably at max 25 current active epic players, but there are plenty of dormant accounts sitting over there, just waiting for an opportunity like unrestricted item crossing. So, who do we make happy? The 25 poor saps that chose a cluster that was doomed from the start or the hundreds of people playing this game because of the economy? Do you want an out from your prison, Gary, or are you going to get hung up on the fact that you don't get to take your meal tray and mattress with you? All I'm getting from this is freedomers that live for the market with dollar signs in their eyes seeing all those poor souls coming from epic with pocket lint coming to their merchants to drain the items off so the sellers can roleplay scrooge mcduck If it was as simple as some "lol meal tray and mattress" then surely I wouldn't care. Seeing as you make it out to be so simple, you obviously don't care at all because if I can't take my items you won't be affected at all so we have to protect people on the cluster that is doing better and further screw over those on a sinking ship 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Firestarter said: If it hasn't bounced back, then what's the issue. The way you go on here makes it sound like there's no economy to "ruin". I never said it was destroyed, it just never recovered to the state it had been. Had it been destroyed, you wouldn't even have a Wurm Online to log into anymore. And yes, the amount of moonmetal and any tomes floating around on epic would be detrimental to the Freedom economy. However many pieces you personally have is irrelevant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 Just now, MrGARY said: All I'm getting from this is freedomers that live for the market with dollar signs in their eyes seeing all those poor souls coming from epic with pocket lint coming to their merchants to drain the items off so the sellers can roleplay scrooge mcduck If it was as simple as some "lol meal tray and mattress" then surely I wouldn't care. Seeing as you make it out to be so simple, you obviously don't care at all because if I can't take my items you won't be affected at all so we have to protect people on the cluster that is doing better and further screw over those on a sinking ship First off, Gary, you're making a false assumption about my character. It's okay, but I will correct you on your error: I've never played this game for the market. Check my post history. Ask around. There are plenty that do, though. Recognize it. Second, I am going to stop engaging with you in conversation about this because, honestly, you're too worked up about it (which I understand, you have a lot invested) to really talk and think rationally about this situation. You've resorted to character assassination and are being super combative with anyone that has some issue with a straight up, unrestricted merge. You're evidently only concerned about your personal gain (or loss) in this and you're keeping your eyes closed to how it might affect the game/player count. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, As_I_Decay said: keeping your eyes closed to how it might affect the game/player count. 4 hours ago, As_I_Decay said: Let them come, one way - one time, with 50 items on their person, no tomes... no moonmetal. 1 hour ago, As_I_Decay said: you will have to give up most of your physical possessions to leave Epic 35 minutes ago, As_I_Decay said: The 25 poor saps that chose a cluster that was doomed from the start ok 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) What is so bad about letting Epic toons come over to Freedom bringing their skills with them? One might say, "Well, it's because skill gain over there was so much easier than over here and its not fair." Ok, so what? Big deal. Don't forget that to leave Epic is to lose all the hard work making and maintaining deeds, items, etc. Epic toons lose invested time. The least they could get would be their earned skills. Besides, epic skills do not hinder Freedom toons. It's not like they are going to ruin someone's experience on Freedom because they have (some) higher skills than others. Seriously. And even if the devs let them bring the skills over and they hop to Chaos - even better, right? That means more skilled players within the PVP arena. I don't think Chaos players would be all that intimidated, tbh. Bottom line, if fairness is the question, it's a silly question imho. Consolidation of PVP and reduction in overhead are far more important to the viability of WO and the community than petty jealousies about skills. Just my 2c. Edited October 14, 2017 by Eyesgood 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 5 hours ago, MrGARY said: If we're still getting epic turned into a comical joke cluster since there was no mention of this possibly changing can we just do a 1:1 merge throwing epic onto freedom disable deeding and give us a month to move our stuff and animals we want with cages to minimize the loss and then after that month kill all the former epic servers and open a new permanent challenge since that's what the aim seems to be. Put a valrei on chaos and keep a joke valrei for challepic then it can have all its resets or whatever. Pretty sure by now I own the second oldest deed remaining on the epic cluster and i'd happily watch it disband if the last 6 years of playing this game can be appreciated and let loyal epic players get off the sinking ship. There's no one left after all this time to care about their deeds and the poor gameplay epic has to offer for both the last year or so and the future doesn't make holding onto deeds worth it, but if we can continue real remaining meaningful gameplay on freedom with chaos as a real serious option and a joke cluster for people to try and not care about skills or whatever that would be good I'd love to move epic mechanics to chaos, then open a new cluster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 consider the last 2 years of epic, moving epic players to freedom with no loss = a sorry. A compensation for them paying x money for half the game they signed up for. Now the game is changing ON THEIR cluster, they should have the option to leave. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Mclavin said: consider the last 2 years of epic, moving epic players to freedom with no loss = a sorry. A compensation for them paying x money for half the game they signed up for. Now the game is changing ON THEIR cluster, they should have the option to leave. I was wondering when this argument would come up, epic is getting a bum rap either way, but I look at the freedom to epic move as a way of opening the gates for epic to freedom, neither of which should ever happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, JakeRivers said: I was wondering when this argument would come up, epic is getting a bum rap either way, but I look at the freedom to epic move as a way of opening the gates for epic to freedom, neither of which should ever happen. I wouldn't worry about that. The changes they are making to skilling will make ongoing epic to freedom movement impossible to justify. If it ever happens it will be before this update comes, and never be seriously considered again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 21 minutes ago, JakeRivers said: I was wondering when this argument would come up, epic is getting a bum rap either way, but I look at the freedom to epic move as a way of opening the gates for epic to freedom, neither of which should ever happen. because how you feel should determine if servers remain dead. yeah...no. So get over it jakeyboi, i rather have people to talk/fight with than being able to look at the 3rd person on my server and say "im higher lawl" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 Leaving will be possible, it's just not yet determined what will come along with that. We won't be allowing transfers of items/tomes/karma though, this would be skill only 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 14, 2017 4 minutes ago, Retrograde said: Leaving will be possible, it's just not yet determined what will come along with that. We won't be allowing transfers of items/tomes/karma though, this would be skill only Hooray, that's a start. So are we talking blanket nerf to appease the freedom bigots, or selective buffs and nerfs to certain skills? Or a 1:1 and let the advantages and disadvantages cancel each other out? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Retrograde said: Leaving will be possible, it's just not yet determined what will come along with that. We won't be allowing transfers of items/tomes/karma though, this would be skill only Is this going to be permanent? Like say I go to epic to train with the 2x skill and come back to freedom in a month, will I retain those skills I earned? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 Just now, Niki said: Is this going to be permanent? Like say I go to epic to train with the 2x skill and come back to freedom in a month, will I retain those skills I earned? No Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 Any skill you leave freedom with on first crossing, you will return to. Any skill gained on epic will remain epic only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 Wouldn't this cause the same issue again in a few years? Think about it. Epic will likely die again, sorry i'm not optimistic. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 I feel like 1:1 is fair. For Epic to Freedom. You just laid down the law and said no items, then a 1:1 is fair to my eyes. And its also easy. You don't have to come up with some horribly complicated formula, or need to open yourself up to a debate with both Freedom/Epic players about how the skill curve works, or have to deal with backlash from either party, or a debate about whats real and whats imagined and whats code. Its just a straight one time 1 to 1 and then this game is no longer divided between a second class playerbase and Freedom. The healing could then finally begin and we could put this bigotry and hatred behind us. Epic players don't get a final "you are inferior to Freedom" slap on the face. Freedom players don't have to worry about the market being flooded with items from Epic. Its a compromise. And its a fair compromise that it feels like the majority of both sides can stomach and accept. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 no items? no tomes? nothing else? probably a really jacked up conversion calculation that doesn't take everything into account? damn you guys really know how to give it to me for paying 8 premiums steadily for 5 years and at one point 25+ premiums for sermons on epic prior to the sermon reset addition also thanks for dangling me along letting me pay my premiums for the extra year of promised GOOD changes to this game, instead of another quick fix to boost population temporarily before everyone stops playing it again ill enjoy the 2 months of fun pvp this will bring to epic, after that im out o/ dw, theres no door left to hit me on the way out because im pretty sure its already broken off the hinges 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 21 minutes ago, Niki said: Wouldn't this cause the same issue again in a few years? Think about it. Epic will likely die again, sorry i'm not optimistic. Yep. That's why if Epic is to stay the skill set needs to be tied to the account and figure out some system to make it work if keeping it tied is "unfair" Dunno like skill link that lasts forever and all new accounts come linked. But once everyone is linked make a new system. Gaining skill on epic and freedom is 100% the same, however the effective skill on epic is an even higher curve to get people into pvp fast, but, and this is a big one because I'm no scientist but the curve would somehow not affect skilling. This way we can grind on either cluster at 100% the same skill rate and take the skill anywhere Lets also not forget those of us that had a fully ground working account on the freedom cluster/wild before epic launched and had to start over from scratch to regrind where in this case people would be able to port over no loss from freedom and don't have to grind over. Yeah... not everyone played both clusters, but having to regrind from scratch and not be allowed to keep it all is a pretty big backstab to me personally. If I could have kept my skills from before epic then I wouldn't have wasted as much time grinding Lets also not forget that huge groups of freedomers did come over for both the affliction and elevation map resets but quickly died out and stayed with freedom. I honestly do not expect this change to give any growth to epic for longer than a month, maybe a couple months tops. But I'm fairly certain the challenge/wu skillgain system won't keep people interested. Hey spam rivets for a few hours so you can make good horse shoes. Spam shingles to get buff for pvp. I don't think so Tim 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 19 minutes ago, MrGARY said: Yep. That's why if Epic is to stay the skill set needs to be tied to the account and figure out some system to make it work if keeping it tied is "unfair" Dunno like skill link that lasts forever and all new accounts come linked. But once everyone is linked make a new system. Gaining skill on epic and freedom is 100% the same, however the effective skill on epic is an even higher curve to get people into pvp fast, but, and this is a big one because I'm no scientist but the curve would somehow not affect skilling. This way we can grind on either cluster at 100% the same skill rate and take the skill anywhere Lets also not forget those of us that had a fully ground working account on the freedom cluster/wild before epic launched and had to start over from scratch to regrind where in this case people would be able to port over no loss from freedom and don't have to grind over. Yeah... not everyone played both clusters, but having to regrind from scratch and not be allowed to keep it all is a pretty big backstab to me personally. If I could have kept my skills from before epic then I wouldn't have wasted as much time grinding Lets also not forget that huge groups of freedomers did come over for both the affliction and elevation map resets but quickly died out and stayed with freedom. I honestly do not expect this change to give any growth to epic for longer than a month, maybe a couple months tops. But I'm fairly certain the challenge/wu skillgain system won't keep people interested. Hey spam rivets for a few hours so you can make good horse shoes. Spam shingles to get buff for pvp. I don't think so Tim A link is a good idea but a faster way to do this is simply "merge" copy all the old maps, delete the old ones. Or do a clean map reset. Place them next to chaos do account transfers. No items. I know you for that.. but it's scary to even consider all that moonmetal in pvp. Remove epic but keep the systems, this would prevent weird transfer mechanics which is silly. Doing away with epic would prevent situations like I pointed out from a rippling effect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Niki said: No items. I know you for that.. but it's scary to even consider all that moonmetal in pvp. Tbh it's scarier to dump everyone from epic onto chaos with basic plate competing against drake/scale If moon metal armor was balanced in the way I proposed a few times, where addy gives 2.5% bonus and glimmer/seryll 5% bonus (instead of the 5 and 10 current) that puts addy plate as better dr than drake but heavy movement penalty. Glimmer/seryll matches scale dr, but again with heavy movement penalty. I think it'd be fine and if it goes in balanced like this it helps close the gap between dragon armor and plate 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
