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Can we get an update on animal crates? Can we expect those to be implemented soon? :)

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As a currently fulltime PVE player only: I really like the Epic transfer idea.

I have a very big concern though: current Epic players MUST have a fair way to have the same transfer to Freedom, being it hard to translate the skills or not. This change must not go live until it is sorted. 

Smaller concerns:

  • I strongly hope the skill copy is a single time copy only - so when I'm back to freedom, grind up another skill I won't get it raised to the new level when I return to Epic. This transfer should be a first time only thing.
  • Do Faith gets copied over to Epic? Do priesthood copy as well?
  • Will the WU characteristic "curve" be fixed? Currently upon reaching 31 on any characteristics on unpatched WU servers halt to a dead stop (drops to 1/10th skillticks).

 

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One suggestion for the "incredible powerfull Freedomer come to Epic and destroy everything" scenario. Maybe its possible to cap the skill transfer. As i understood you, the idea is to get people that are interested in pvp without forcing them to grind 10 years again.

 

So if freedomer transfers to epic lets cap the skill at the average of epic player skill. F.e. player x has 90 body strength and 30 fighting skill on Freedom. He uses his transfer possibility to epic...

Average body strength is maybe 45, Fs 72. Then he gets 45 bs and 30 fs transfered.

 

So freedomer would still be able to come and participate, but wont destroy everything due to overpower.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Andruil said:

One suggestion for the "incredible powerfull Freedomer come to Epic and destroy everything" scenario. Maybe its possible to cap the skill transfer. As i understood you, the idea is to get people that are interested in pvp without forcing them to grind 10 years again.

 

So if freedomer transfers to epic lets cap the skill at the average of epic player skill. F.e. player x has 90 body strength and 30 fighting skill on Freedom. He uses his transfer possibility to epic...

Average body strength is maybe 45, Fs 72. Then he gets 45 bs and 30 fs transfered.

 

So freedomer would still be able to come and participate, but wont destroy everything due to overpower.

 

 

Good idea! but I dont think any freedomer would accept that. but yes that would balance it

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I was always told skill gain on epic was faster then Freedom?

So this proposed update is making little sense to me.

 

As freedomer  with 70 fighting  I transfer to epic and it sill 70 fighting?

If I get to 75 fighting on epic and come back to freedom it still stay as 75 or it goes back to 70 ?

 

I was under the impression both servers had different skill lvls that never transferred over , but epic was easyer to raise..

 

If you plan to make it were Freedom and epic skills become the same lvl , then why not just add epic to the cluster?..

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I've been holding off commenting on this for a while, more a case of seeing where the discussion went and marshalling my thoughts.

 

I've played on Freedom for a long time, and on Epic since it began, I've played PvE almost exclusively on both, I'm not a dedicated PvP player, never have been, never will be, although I've seen my share of deaths, and the occasional kill on Epic, that's not why I was there, or why I continued to play there, off and on, throughout the years Epic has been in existence.

 

Both my main characters have about the same level of skills, since I'm not a grinder at all, and both are not far off the same age, in time since they were first made, and total playtime as well.

 

In recent years Epic has stagnated, to the extent that at times I was the only person on Serenity, in fact possibly the only person on the entire cluster, ( it's hard to tell, since /who is slightly broken when there is only one person on one of the servers). 

And yes, I would happily have accepted a one time transfer of my Epic character to Freedom, I still would, but that would not fix epic, that would be yet another player leaving the cluster, it would be a small defeat for Wurm, Epic and me as well, an acceptance that Epic was no longer a place Jahpeople wished to play on, and I'm not sure that's what is best for me or Wurm as a whole.

 

I do agree that there is a certain inherent unfairness in allowing the skills adjustment to work only for Freedom to Epic transfers, but the reasons I see for it are to try to boost player numbers on Epic, not further reduce them, which in some cases is what would happen if the adjustments applied from Epic to Freedom.

 

Will I be likely to transfer my Freedom character with reasonable skills to Epic to take advantage of the adjustments offered? Probably, Zenity already transfers to Epic on occasion already, but has nothing like the skills I've spent years getting on Freedom, and frankly it'd be nice to be able to live on both, without feeling so useless on one of the characters I consider my mains, but Jahpeople will still be an Epic only character unless the transfer is two way, and fair.

 

One of the problems with any sort of fixes or merge discussions regarding Epic has always been the perceived imbalance of skills between the two clusters, the perception that Epic is somehow easier, therefore it'd be unfair to be able to transfer those easy skills back to freedom, that somehow it'd be unfair to those who've spent years building up skills to suddenly be competing with others who got theirs the easy way...

 

But after playing on Epic since the first day, I don't see Jahpeople as any more skilled than Zenity, at least not when plain skill is taken into account, since effective skill only applies to Epic, and those 'high' skills won't transfer to Freedom, for all the years Jah has played on Epic his FS is barely higher than Zen's, weapon skills are also comparable, without the effective skill modifier on Epic of course. And the same applies to most other skills, other than lockpicking and associated PvP skills that Jah has developed more of, at the expense of the likes of farming and other more PvE oriented skills.r

 

Overall, I see the skills transfer thing as a positive step, for Epic at least, it should attract a number of players who's main reason for never trying Epic has been the thought of restarting from scratch, it was the reason I developed two characters after all, since I couldn't develop one character on both clusters. And frankly, it'll be good to see more players on Epic, even if they just visit, it'll perhaps be more like it was in the first couple of years, lively, with plenty of chat, and of course dramas, with more action and perhaps more players willing to repel invaders ;)

 

In the end, as Lisabet says, we're all Wurmians, and we should be free to play on Epic or Freedom, and to grow our characters as we feel we need to. Without feeling we're being forced to conform to others ideals as to how we should play in the sandbox, so I'll go from being near the top of the tree on Epic to an average player, a freedumber, it's not like I haven't been there before, and since I play for me, and not for the expectations or approval of others, that's just fine with me.

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8 hours ago, Orlaz said:

Gratz Dave (Dadd)

 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DAVE!

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1 hour ago, Damascus said:

I was always told skill gain on epic was faster then Freedom?

 

its faster up to a certain point, then it slows down, due to difficulty, with the proposed change so its more like WU this will ofc change.

as it is now, getting to 70 is faster overall on epic, to 90 almost the same, after 90, ill rather do that on freedom than on epic since its so much faster.

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I was so fascinated by this news I actually feel a need to post for the first time in months.

 

Epic was suppose to be story driven, that was the whole idea when Rolf's announced it, a completely different way of playing from Freedom or Chaos. Then you enter a bunch of whiners and end up transferring one of the main Epic concept to Freedom like the missions appeasing said whiners and kind of making Epic just a faster grind. Now you make skills transfer....faaaacinating. Good job on screwing over people who worked for it separately or better paid for a separate account.

 

I don't even play Epic or pvp and I'd want to kick your asses.

 

And so OBVIOUSLY this was needed based on the big numbers playing...oh wait...

 

When are you gonna do something about the player base? New wall types are incredibly fabulous :rolleyes: and screwing over some group of players in the game is nifty but what about the player base? I thought when Rolf stepped down, back, where ever the hell he went there would be an effort to get the Wurm name out into the real world. One interview in Massively what 6 years ago, doesn't cut it.

 

How about you remove your head out of your collective butts and start polling what the players want and HOW.

 

I know you don't have that abi- OH WAIT YOU DO.

 

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Any update plan like this one where an entire part of your player community is completely disrespected is a failure. 

 

It's simply unacceptable to give Freedom players an ability that Epic players don't also receive.

 

If the plan was the opposite with the benefit going to Epic players with Freedom players being disrespected I would say the same thing.

 

Please rethink this plan and come up with something where both Freedom and Epic players are treated respectfully especially when it comes to the amount of work it takes to build up a character.

 

~Nappy

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@NappyThey never said they wasn't going to allow Epic, infact what they said means they're trying to figure out HOW.

 

Quote

Transferring from Epic to Freedom is a little more difficult, and we'll continue to discuss our options with this prior to the launch.


Prior, to the launch. He just explained how the Freedom transfer would work because for them it's clear, simple. 
But for the epic transfer it isn't so clear yet, so when they're clear and can explain it without requiring Einsteins equations, they'll post it to us.

People were jumping the gun a little here. It isn't about just bringing epic to freedom it's how you do it. nappy, being a person who has played with the code, you can probably appriciate the difficulty this task will be. 
But I'm sure even if they have to make some freedomers grind their teeth, they won't let down epic players looking to come freedom. 

Everybody owes it to epic to allow them to come freedom, put personal interests to one side.  

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@mclaven As I mentioned a fair solution for ALL players is needed. Nothing personal in that statement at all.

 

I can help with the curve formula requirements to make the conversion from Epic to Freedom easier too.

 

A handy reference source called the Wurmpedia actually says the following:

 

(snip)

 

The Curve's formula is y = 2x-(x/10)^2, where y is the "effective skill" and x is the raw skill number. For example, at 50 raw skill in mining, one can get 75 max. ql of ore, since their effective skill is 2*50-(50/10)^2, which equals 75 effective skill. The reverse formula for this equation is -10*((100-y)^(1/2)-10) = x.

 

(end snip)

 

From: https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/The_Curve

 

So for all epic characters going to Freedom apply the reverse formula. Ok, no more inequality required and a fair solution for everyone involved. Definitely nothing personal there.

 

~Nappy

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11 minutes ago, Nappy said:

@mclaven As I mentioned a fair solution for ALL players is needed. Nothing personal in that statement at all.

 

I can help with the curve formula requirements to make the conversion from Epic to Freedom easier too.

 

A handy reference source called the Wurmpedia actually says the following:

 

(snip)

 

The Curve's formula is y = 2x-(x/10)^2, where y is the "effective skill" and x is the raw skill number. For example, at 50 raw skill in mining, one can get 75 max. ql of ore, since their effective skill is 2*50-(50/10)^2, which equals 75 effective skill. The reverse formula for this equation is -10*((100-y)^(1/2)-10) = x.

 

(end snip)

 

From: https://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/The_Curve

 

So for all epic characters going to Freedom apply the reverse formula. Ok, no more inequality required and a fair solution for everyone involved. Definitely nothing personal there.

 

~Nappy

 

No... The curve is not a skill gain formula, it's an implementation formula. The curve certainly affects our skill gain, but not in such a simplistic way. To negate the curve, you would just copy our actual skills as is over to freedom, because the curve is not active on freedom.

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25 minutes ago, Czartemp said:

 

No... The curve is not a skill gain formula, it's an implementation formula. The curve certainly affects our skill gain, but not in such a simplistic way. To negate the curve, you would just copy our actual skills as is over to freedom, because the curve is not active on freedom.

In rethinking this I think you are right. Thank-you for giving me that second set of eyes!

 

It doesn't change the important core of what I am trying to say.

 

Rather then implement a plan that hurts some players while letting others get away with a huge improvement, put the plans on hold, rethink it, discover a better, more fairer way to implement and then do that. There is no need to favor one group of players over another, especially when the people you hurt the most are the ones that have likely been the most faithful to you by continuing to play on dying servers. Might be a good time to read a great book about customer service called "Raving Fans". Lots of really good ideas in that book.

 

~Nappy

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please do not change the skilling system on epic. if people wanted wurm u skilling they would play wurm u

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12 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

please do not change the skilling system on epic. if people wanted wurm u skilling they would play wurm u

 

If I had -known- that WU had such a better skilling system, I would likely have played it instead. Accelerated skillgain is one thing, but removing the 1.01 - 39.99 random roll requirement is huge. Much less frustrating, and just more sensible all around.

 

Plus, Epic is official, and to a new guy, WU sounded ephemeral.

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Epic server reset.  Fresh start on Epic and all maps.  If this works out, I'm hoping this brings all of Chaos over (not by force) to Epic and ends up making Epic the main PvP.

Edited by nicedreams
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9 minutes ago, Nappy said:

Rather then implement a plan that hurts some players while letting others get away with a huge improvement, put the plans on hold, rethink it, discover a better, more fairer way to implement and then do that. There is no need to favor one group of players over another, especially when the people you hurt the most are the ones that have likely been the most faithful to you by continuing to play on dying servers. Might be a good time to read a great book about customer service called "Raving Fans". Lots of really good ideas in that book.

 

It's impossible to please everyone. How the curve affects skilling is being discussed in this thread

 

 

How do you decide what is fair, or how much time players spent raising certain skills? I got 95 digging doing terraforming projects that took months... is that skill to be treated as though i sat on tar for a few weeks digging? I am biased, but as an epic player wishing to escape what looks like an even bleaker future for epic, I think losing the curve and the ability to easily make high ql items; having (probably permanently) gimped body stats and having suffered under the curve for pita skills like meditation, locksmithing, metallurgy, coal making, natural substances and many more is punishment enough. Naturally some foaming-at-the mouth freedomers disagree.

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wurm u may have a better skilling system or it may be worse, thats not the point. people have grinded on epic for years and with the wurm u skilling system it would just take a matter of hours to get 80 in a skill. don't you think this will upset the many people who have grinded their accounts or purchased their accounts. It will make everyone's time wasted and money wasted. a new skilling system should not be implemented on a server that people have been working on for years. put a new skilling system on a new cluster instead of ruining an entire cluster.

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Just now, JamesSnow said:

wurm u may have a better skilling system or it may be worse, thats not the point. people have grinded on epic for years and with the wurm u skilling system it would just take a matter of hours to get 80 in a skill. don't you think this will upset the many people who have grinded their accounts or purchased their accounts. It will make everyone's time wasted and money wasted. a new skilling system should not be implemented on a server that people have been working on for years. put a new skilling system on a new cluster instead of ruining an entire cluster.

 

If they can fairly transfer skills from Epic to Freedom then there is no issue.  Then it's not a waste of time going forward with any change.

 

Last I heard Epic's on induced coma life support.....

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Please everyone isn't what I've asked for. I've asked for a careful reconsideration of the plan so that one group of players don't end up with a massive step forward while the other group takes a massive leap backwards.

 

Brings to mind at least the following questions:

 

1) Why do Freedom players get to bring their skills to Epic but Epic players can't bring their skills to Freedom? If you can't figure out a fair way to move then don't do the move until you do.

 

2) Was there some value reduction in an Epic player subscription that wasn't present in a Freedom player subscription? In other words did Epic players spend 5 silver a month for their subscription while Freedom players paid 10 silver? If the answer is no then why are one type of players efforts being massively devalued while another group are being massively increased?

 

3) Why is the long, multiple year, effort of Epic players being reduced to nothing while Freedom players who have done nothing on Epic are suddenly becoming cluster gods on a cluster they have never participated in?

 

Compromises have to happen. Just apply them fairly, transparently and equally. If you are going to let Freedom players bring their skills across then give Epic players the same. Can't figure out a perfect formula, fine do a blanket 95% of skill or 75% of skill or something like that, there must be some compromise that works.

 

Screwing over one part of the community for another is not something that leads to a positive experience.

 

Apply the golden rule, do unto others as you would like done unto yourself. In other words how many Freedom players would accept the exact opposite approach, bring Epic skills over and not allow Freedom transfer? 

 

~Nappy

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You could also just do away with both Chaos and Epic entirely, build a new PVP cluster and let people grow their characters from a new starting point.

 

Of course that devalues people's love of their deeds, servers etc. Also not perfect in a big way.

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19 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

wurm u may have a better skilling system or it may be worse, thats not the point. people have grinded on epic for years and with the wurm u skilling system it would just take a matter of hours to get 80 in a skill. don't you think this will upset the many people who have grinded their accounts or purchased their accounts. It will make everyone's time wasted and money wasted. a new skilling system should not be implemented on a server that people have been working on for years. put a new skilling system on a new cluster instead of ruining an entire cluster.

 

I understand the feeling of waste, but at the same time, I think it's incomplete. One, you've -played- for years, no doubt much of it at the top. At the least, you did get that return on investment. Two, if nothing changes, what are your future years really worth on Epic? Few players on the servers, almost no one who can compete at the top tier or be willing to spend the time required to ever match the top tier.

 

To be clear, what would be lost is not the gameplay you've already had as the top dogs, but the gameplay you might have if the rules didn't change. How much is that gameplay actually worth?

 

In short, it sounds like you veterans want to preserve a worse ruleset because you're invested in it, and anything actually solving Epic's problems would cheapen what you did. I understand that, but if I had a vote, I'd vote for the new rules all the same.

 

I would also point out that a fundamental principle of Epic, as evidenced by the curve, is to make it easier for players to get started and catch up with veterans, while not completely removing the advantage of being veterans. The current implementation is clearly faulty, and these rule changes are aimed at better implementing that fundamental principle.

 

What I don't see changing, however, is that same principle. This is all about making it easier for new players to catch up, which (as far as I can see) is the design purpose behind Epic. So, in my view, that makes these kinds of changes both reasonable, and an assumed risk for playing on Epic.

 

I thus know that at some point in the future, if I stay and become a vet, and the problem of newbies not being able to catch up still exists, I can expect changes to mitigate that. That shouldn't be a surprise.

 

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