Angelklaine

Allow family members in the same household to play in different PMKs

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Today I had my wife log into her character (Which I have been using 95% of the time) on her computer to convert my main to the PMK. Unfortunately, it triggered spy prevention, which ended up with me locked out of my character (Its still locked out it hasn't let me get back in.) After speaking with a CM, I found out that the Spy Prevention mechanic can take up to 2 days to allow you back into the game. 

 

2 days. 

 

Given the fact that someone who is trying to actually spy would use a proxy, a vpn, or a different connection, this mechanic only affects innocent people such as those who are trying to convert their characters to their PMK, or family members living on the same household playing in differnet PMKs. This mechanic does nothing to prevent actual spying between two kingdoms.

 

Remove this mechanic that seriously disrupts player experience and denies legitimate players from their ability to use the subscription they pay for. This mechanic is obsolete, intrusive, and harmful for the player base. It serves no purpose, helps nothing, and makes people unable to play the game they pay for.

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Its been nearly an hour for me and I can't log in. I have no other accounts logged in at this time, at all, and I can't log my character in. I was told it can take up to two days.

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So, if I for example get mad at Pingvinen one day I can go kick him out of Wurm for up to two days?

That's fu**ed up.

Even the accidental sail to Chaos would do that.

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2 minutes ago, Samusen said:

Download a vpn

 

Whats the point though? Why do I need a VPN to play a game? Can't someone trying to spy on a different PMK do the same thing? So what does this mechanic achieves?

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  It's probably something that was overlooked in removal with the creation of PMK's.  Does it serve a purpose?  Not really, especially when it only checks on your initial login and not even when you reconnect.  So it's more annoying than useful.  I think most would be ok having it removed since PMKs can actually now remove people properly.

 Even still quite a few American players use VPN's anyways since the host throttles our connection sometimes.  So vOv

Edited by Samusen

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It's a pointless mechanic that only affects people that aren't looking to cause trouble. Those that are looking to cause trouble wouldn't be stopped by this mechanic at all. It's about time it was removed.

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Telling someone to use a VPN is in effect telling them to exploit a loophole in a game mechanic.

 

As such you reveal the very real problem here, that this spy prevention measure is practically useless as far as preventing spying, since circumventing it is trivial.

It's not a game breaking issue for most players, but for those who have an honest need to have characters online from different kingdoms, it is a major annoyance that shouldn't force them into a situation where they may be in breach of the rules in order to log in.

 

Like other spy prevention measure, it simply does nothing to prevent anyone determined enough to use spies. The 'no local list' is another of these spy prevention measures that does not prevent spies, and is actually one of the reasons for the population decline on Epic/Chaos, since it means that not only can new players not see threats in local, they can't see anyone at all, in fact they assume the server is abandoned and dead, a self fulfilling condition, since most leave shortly after entering from Freedom or Tutorial.

 

Spy prevention has always worked best when the players have the means to detect and neutralise spies, mechanics are either insufficient to deter the determined, or work against new player retention right at the start of their journey.

 

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Its not against the rules to circumvent spy prevention its more a deterrent for what i liken to oportunistic thieves, people who wont go out of their way to break into your house to steal but may be tempted if you leave the door open. Basically a soft barrier that limits people who cant be bothered meaning those who really want to can still but less people overall. Is it not ideal or outdated, perhaps but there are still template kingdoms so the existence of pmks in itself doesnt make it redundant. 

 

As a side note it shouldnt prevent after the other toon has left the world it just sometimes bugs out but it can help to log the enemy back in and out to try and wrestle it if it's hanging

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-1 I know it can be an inconvenience at times but still better than the way chaos was before it was introduced, I would personally leave it myself till a new better system is introduced.

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54 minutes ago, Zenity said:

Telling someone to use a VPN is in effect telling them to exploit a loophole in a game mechanic.

 

As such you reveal the very real problem here, that this spy prevention measure is practically useless as far as preventing spying, since circumventing it is trivial.

It's not a game breaking issue for most players, but for those who have an honest need to have characters online from different kingdoms, it is a major annoyance that shouldn't force them into a situation where they may be in breach of the rules in order to log in.

 

Like other spy prevention measure, it simply does nothing to prevent anyone determined enough to use spies. The 'no local list' is another of these spy prevention measures that does not prevent spies, and is actually one of the reasons for the population decline on Epic/Chaos, since it means that not only can new players not see threats in local, they can't see anyone at all, in fact they assume the server is abandoned and dead, a self fulfilling condition, since most leave shortly after entering from Freedom or Tutorial.

 

Spy prevention has always worked best when the players have the means to detect and neutralise spies, mechanics are either insufficient to deter the determined, or work against new player retention right at the start of their journey.

 

 

  Clearly it states that he and his wife are or were in separate kingdoms.  Therefor they were not able to be logged in at the same time.  A VPN is merely just a different IP that the game recognizes as a separate identity.  It's not an exploit, and it doesn't effect anyone's game play or the game itself.  It's literally no different than if they paid $10 a month more for a second IP to be added to their home.

  The no local list is not a spy prevention mechanic.  It was created to help stop people from continuing with non premium alt abuse.  Most often on Chaos/Epic new players are helped and looked after a lot better than Freedom.  You don't get the same kind of strong bonding experience you do from Pvp servers that people don't get on Freedom.    Pretty sure it also lists how many people are on the server when you login.  

  

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2 hours ago, SmeJack said:

Its not against the rules to circumvent spy prevention its more a deterrent for what i liken to oportunistic thieves, people who wont go out of their way to break into your house to steal but may be tempted if you leave the door open. Basically a soft barrier that limits people who cant be bothered meaning those who really want to can still but less people overall. Is it not ideal or outdated, perhaps but there are still template kingdoms so the existence of pmks in itself doesnt make it redundant. 

 

As a side note it shouldnt prevent after the other toon has left the world it just sometimes bugs out but it can help to log the enemy back in and out to try and wrestle it if it's hanging

I can think of many times this has not stopped someone from stealing. It stops no one on Freedom, stops no one on Chaos. Anyone with an inkling for theft who could be stopped by this can simply drop items outside deed, log out, log in alt, and continue its intent. 

 

We tried logging in multiple times, on both characters. I was bugged out and was told by staff there is nothing they could do. Thats my issue with the system. It does nothing to stop whats intended to stop, and even staff tells you to use a Proxy... So whats the point? 

 

2 hours ago, shakys said:

-1 I know it can be an inconvenience at times but still better than the way chaos was before it was introduced, I would personally leave it myself till a new better system is introduced.

 

Only that it does not work as intended and doesn't stop those it is intended to stop. So why keep something that has no use, and only causes problems?

 

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5 hours ago, shakys said:

-1 I know it can be an inconvenience at times but still better than the way chaos was before it was introduced, I would personally leave it myself till a new better system is introduced.

VPNs weren't an easy thing back then.  They did exist, but not like they do now.  Today, many gamers depend on VPNs, for a number of reasons.  They are cheap and extremely easy to set up now.  Seems like the mechanic should be rethought and handled another way.

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4 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

I can think of many times this has not stopped someone from stealing. It stops no one on Freedom, stops no one on Chaos. 

 

It was an analogy to explain spy protection not theft protection, a picture to show a likeness of mentality. If it were theft protection then its not working on pve because its not a mechanic there.

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Players shouldn't need or be expected to use 3rd party software to enable game play, that is very poor game design. This mechanic serves no purpose, it prevents no malicious actions of a determined player and only inconveniences legitimate players. The better solution to this is permanent bans for the toxic players offending, it won't be a problem for much longer after the first couple of bans. I mean that's how we punish in society isn't it? Rather than tolerate them and try to prevent them and their misdeeds.. Reminds me of people locking their kids up and preventing them from going outside for fear of something bad happening, the criminals keep on breaking the law while the innocent children are punished 'for their protection'. It's very dumb.

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I don't know about this. Metagaming is serious business.

 

I do think they should lower the time, sounds broken though!

Edited by Niki

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me and my wife are in the same boat but what you are asking for comes with its own issues. Anybody looking to steal/grief/spy, will do so, with or without this detterant.

I think we need this to be GM based, like Epic-forums use to be.
Perhaps, if proof is provided, then they can enable the account to be logged in? 

It's the only way I can see it going forward, but it's akward cause, who's gonna allow 2 people in the same household to play 2 different kingdoms =p

But ye, would be nice on a proof-given basis or something. The whole trust thing is up to the kingdom/players.

Edited by Mclavin

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1 hour ago, SmeJack said:

 

It was an analogy to explain spy protection not theft protection, a picture to show a likeness of mentality. If it were theft protection then its not working on pve because its not a mechanic there.

Regardless of if its theft or spying that it blocks, the mechanic does not work as intended. I can understand the reason it was implemented. That reason, however, no longer applies, or is not effective. Its like turning an intersection on a street into a single one way street but leaving the Traffic Light and forcing drivers to wait a few minutes every so often when it turns red. It serves no purpose, helps nothing, and only gets in the way. If it did anything to prevent Spy accounts from logging in, then I would agree with it, but it does not.

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There are times that I have wanted to go to chaos when Xallo was with the Macedon kingdom. I was in JK and I wasn't able to go over there without jumping through hoops as long as that went on. It sucks when you're in that situation and it doesn't even really help for it's intended purpose. If it's so easy to circumvene it and it actually bothers legit players, it should be removed. They did it for "but it makes macroing too easy mechanics" (removal of the random shuffle of spell lists, crafting window etc) This is just another step to take where the mechanic to prevent something bad, is bothering legit players.

 

Besides, is the alt/spy issue really so rampant that we need game mechanics like this? Because if it is, it's time to come up with some stronger rules and mechanics. It's just not working right now.

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I agree this solution is really outdated now. Same-IP restrictions are always a thing that upset players where the same public IP is shared - like households with several players not mentioning colleges where hundreds of potential players may share a single IP.

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