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Roccandil

Thinking of trying this game

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20 hours ago, Roccandil said:

In short, a master would waste a lot less material than a beginner making something, and the result would be higher QL, but there would be no gambling involved.

 

Potentially workable.

 

It would make grinding up skills a bit obnoxious for newbies since gathering mats for creation already sucks enough. Hard to get a good amount of logs and ore around when all you have is a small cart, if that.

 

20 hours ago, Roccandil said:

Oh, and I don't see how one loses an element like gold, especially if you're working with molten gold. Remelt it, re-refine it if necessary, but it's not going anywhere easily.

 

Well, it could spill on the floor or other surfaces. You are trying to attach the gold to the object while imping it. Or maybe you start attaching a bit you look at it and it's just ugly, misplaced, or just not quite enough gold yet and you need to add a bit more.

 

Less sure about creation. But it might just be a thing where mechanics triumphs over reality.

 

1 hour ago, Yiraia said:

the ql you get is random.

 

The quality you get is defined by a specific equation. Nothing in the game can be truly random since it's done by a computer. And as Roccandil said, the universe isn't really random it's just exceedingly complex.

 

I think the word you're looking for is "variable". The results do vary but the results are never random.

 

1 hour ago, Yiraia said:

I know that technically the more trials you get, the more your data resembles the 50/50 chance, but we all know thats not really the case in wurm. People have complained about failing 2-4 times in a row with a 99% chance.

 

You done any significant amount of trials? Compared p values of your findings?

 

My own character has imped hundreds of thousands of times and has created God knows how many thousands of items. People are pretty inherently bad at assessing odds (hence why casinos make such a killing).

If you take a few thousand players and have them play for hundreds of thousands of days then you're going to to get weird strings of results. Anecdotal stories is not science. Until you have tested the system in a scientifically there is no evidence to stand on.

 

I could easily counter "I have noticed that the creation percentages have fit quite nicely with my actual results. The system works great!" We both are equal since neither of us has any evidence to back up our claims.

 

1 hour ago, Yiraia said:

Don't most people play video games to experience something other than real life?

 

Can't speak for everyone, but I usually like a system that makes logical sense and is enjoyable. That's why I'm still here at Wurm.

 

1 hour ago, Yiraia said:

The majority of people I have talked to said they would rather click once with a large timer and have multiple actions take place rather than sit down and click over and over again.

 

The game already has a solution for this. Get more mind logic. Every time I imp some items I don't have to look at the screen for just about 3 minutes.

 

1 hour ago, Yiraia said:

I had one friend that was interested in playing the game but he had to look up at the screen every 30 seconds to continue what he was doing and it disrupted his homework.

 

It's about picking the right task for what you can afford. When I was in school I had to read a lot. I'd pick tasks that were easy on the micro. I'd do some mining at a vein or digging while I was reading. I wouldn't have to look at my screen except for once every 10-15 minutes. Whenever I felt a couple minutes went by I'd smash my mine/dig hotkey a bunch without even looking away from my reading.

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5 hours ago, Wonka said:

Wurm isn't reality, although some aspects of it are similar.  It's a game, with its own rules about how things work.  If some things in Wurm don't make sense when considered against the real world, so what?

 

Ultimately, what you seem to be asking for would involve a significant redesign of quite a bit of very fundamental bits of how the wurm world works; I'm not saying thats necessarily a bad thing (although I'm not convinced your proposal really improves anything), but given the complexity of that sort of refactoring, I can't see that it's likely to happen any time soon, if ever.

 

I agree that games aren't reality, and thus the argument that "random is realistic" is less compelling. :) Even if we had to use RNG to model reality, I'd rather have good gameplay than ultimate realism.

 

Wurm is peculiarly frustrating, however, because -some- of its mechanics work very well without RNG, while others rely heavily on it. I feel like Wurm could do better than RNG, if only because Wurm -already- does better than RNG. (As a newcomer, Wurm feels like a hodge-podge of bolted-on mechanics, not all of which are consistent.)

 

At any rate, I understand that Wurm isn't going to change to suit me. :) If nothing else, I'm refining my own vision of the "ideal" game.

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6 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

Even if we had to use RNG to model reality, I'd rather have good gameplay than ultimate realism.

 

You make it sound like RNG isn't good gameplay. It is for some (most?) of us...some (most?) of the time.

 

Don't be mixing opinion with fact :p.

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1 hour ago, Hailene said:

 

Potentially workable.

 

It would make grinding up skills a bit obnoxious for newbies since gathering mats for creation already sucks enough. Hard to get a good amount of logs and ore around when all you have is a small cart, if that.

 

 

Well, it could spill on the floor or other surfaces. You are trying to attach the gold to the object while imping it. Or maybe you start attaching a bit you look at it and it's just ugly, misplaced, or just not quite enough gold yet and you need to add a bit more.

 

Less sure about creation. But it might just be a thing where mechanics triumphs over reality.

 

Material loss during skill-grinding for newbies would simply be a balancing act. Any material loss with scale can hurt, but the same loss would be negligible for crafting simple tools out of basic materials.

 

Anyhow, rather than thermodynamics-defying evaporation of materials, I'd like to see a more consistent implementation of byproduct mechanics. I know we already have at least wood scraps and leather pieces; would be cool to expand that. For instance, I could see gold dust being a byproduct of gold crafting, or slag being a byproduct of ore refining. Lots of potential for new gameplay.

 

Oh, and I'd also prefer longer timers and less clicking to do the same work. :)

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2 minutes ago, Hailene said:

 

You make it sound like RNG isn't good gameplay. It is for some (most?) of us...some (most?) of the time.

 

Don't be mixing opinion with fact :p.

 

That's -my- point of view. :P (Wasn't it obvious? :) )

 

Like I said earlier, though, RNG is a catch-all phrase for anything random, but I'm more precisely referring to all-or-nothing gambling mechanics, where a player's time and effort are put on the line like playing blackjack at a casino. I maintain that that -is- bad gameplay, especially because it's so easy for developers to exploit players with it (the lure of Las Vegas is real).

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3 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I'd like to see a more consistent implementation of byproduct mechanics. I know we already have at least wood scraps and leather pieces; would be cool to expand that.

 

The leftover material is pretty awful. You get chunks of low QL left overs making some things...including the things you listed there's rivets and armor chains and other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. The low QL stuff sucks. Mentally I know I am coming out ahead when a rivet costs .22 iron and I get .02 low QL iron (for a total of .24 iron used)...but the extra clicking to take care of the byproducts sucks. I'd rather it just cost .24 iron upfront.

 

Though if the byproducts were useful...that'd be interesting. I could buy into that.

10 minutes ago, Roccandil said:

I'm more precisely referring to all-or-nothing gambling mechanics, where a player's time and effort are put on the line like playing blackjack at a casino.

 

We're going to have to respectfully disagree on this.

 

Respectfully, you seem to have a...strong focus on individual actions. I would hazard you're a person that revels in certainty and shies away from the unknown. You like plans and you stick with them.

 

I don't think not having every mining action give a skill falls under gambling except in the vaguest of sense. No more than competing in a sport. In a sport you do any action that may or may not pay off in the end. Everything is risk vs reward.

 

I'd hardly say that the actual competition of a physical sport is gambling directly.

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On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:03 PM, Roccandil said:

Anyhow, the good news is that I'm enjoying the game enough to stick with it, despite RNG. I just wish there didn't need to be a "despite". :)

I have been playing Wurm for many years *in spite* of numerous things that I don't appreciate about it. That has always been the key to enjoyment of it to me, focusing upon the positive aspects of it and avoiding the parts that I have little interest in or the time invested into certain things makes them not worthwhile. All a personal perspective to which the game Developers have at least made various options available to suit different personalities.

 

One thing you won't find though is the Devs changing their core concepts around which the game functions to suit other's wishes. In essence it is adapt or die (quit) here. Few tears are shed for those new to the game with little ties to anyone else who then suddenly disappears never to be seen again. The game and progress then grinds on ever so slowly, with patience seemingly being its own reward when it comes to skill progress. Then I find at very high skill levels that unless all the particular advantages are employed effectively in a focused manner, skill gains if any at all will be miniscule and not worth paying the slightest attention to.

 

There are those who play the game focused upon skill gains and those who use their skills to play the game for enjoyment. Yeah, skill grinders may enjoy doing that but it is not the type of enjoyment that I am referring to. Find your own way in the game, pursue the things you enjoy within it and you may survive to see the game evolve over time in positive directions that appeal to you as well.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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2 minutes ago, Ayes said:

One thing you won't find though is the Devs changing their core concepts around which the game functions to suit other's wishes. In essence it is adapt or die (quit) here

 

 

You use 'core concepts' like there's a plan beyond "hey this is cool, we'll add this next'. Wurm is nothing but reactionary.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Shazaam said:

Wurm is nothing but reactionary.

Would this mean then that there is an equal but opposite reaction to everything? If this is the case then wouldn't they nullify each other and nothing be the result? Or maybe there is nothing to the reaction, but.....

 

=Ayes=

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1 hour ago, Hailene said:

Respectfully, you seem to have a...strong focus on individual actions. I would hazard you're a person that revels in certainty and shies away from the unknown. You like plans and you stick with them.

 

I don't think not having every mining action give a skill falls under gambling except in the vaguest of sense. No more than competing in a sport. In a sport you do any action that may or may not pay off in the end. Everything is risk vs reward.

 

I'd hardly say that the actual competition of a physical sport is gambling directly.

 

I'll quote myself:
 

Quote

 

"...I'll congratulate Wurm for a deterministic mechanic that (IMO) works very well: cooking affinities. I realize that the initial possible affinities are random for each character, but as far as I can tell, if I make diced feline meat with chopped parsley and sassafras in a pottery bowl in a normal oven, I'm going to get the same affinity every time with the same character.

 

Because of the variables involved, however, I now have an incredible number of possible combinations to research to find affinities I want to get, and for me, that's a lot of fun. :)"

 

 

In other words, random mechanics may provide uncertain outcomes, but the player's actions will always be certain. Click a button till it works. :P That's mindlessly repetitive (which is another definition of bad gameplay).

 

Deterministic mechanics, however, may provide certain outcomes once the right sequence of actions is known, but -finding- that sequence can be uncertain and unpredictable, which means the player has to think about it. IMO, that's just more fun to play. Wurm does a good job of this with the cooking affinities (and it reminds me of researching potions in Might & Magic VI, a similar deterministic system I had a blast exploring).

 

Granted, in mining, at least, you're not risking much on each "gamble"; that's more a crafting issue (especially given resource loss). Meditation grinding, on the other hand... :P

 

At any rate, were I developing a game, I would make it a point of principle to never stake a player's time and efforts on a gamble, no matter how small or large.

Edited by Roccandil

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2 hours ago, Roccandil said:

In other words, random mechanics may provide uncertain outcomes, but the player's actions will always be certain. Click a button till it works. :P That's mindlessly repetitive (which is another definition of bad gameplay).

 

 

You keep saying that and I wonder if you have actually understand the mechanics involved. It is not simple RNG here.

 

Let me give you an example. Right now I build a caravel. For no reason other than decoration of my harbor, so it is not something I’m in a hurry to complete.

 

My shipbuilding is a bit low for that kind of job, so I get a lot of fails placing parts. If my shipbuilding was higher, I would get considerably less fails, since my skill level is directly tied to that chance percentage. I made the choice to start working on it now, instead of grinding shipbuilding first (making lots of easier ships first, ships I have no use for). I traded deterministic grinding for gambling as you call it. I made that choice, not the game.

 

Right now, I’m placing deck boards. The deck boards are of a bit low quality as well. Why? I had a stock of 35-40ql logs I wanted to get rid off. The boards averaged at around 29ql. Their low ql is one of the reasons I get so many fails as well, because their quality is also tied to that same chance percentage. I could use better quality logs, discard the low quality boards I produce and only work with the best materials. I would get way less number of fails that way. I traded quantity of mats (all the low ql trees, logs and boards I may get and have to discard) for gambling. Again, my choice, the game didn’t force me to do that.

 

Why that choice? Because I’m not in a hurry to finish and pressing a key every now and then is ideal for semi-afking while doing some other things like watching a movie. I don’t care about fails. If you do, get better in your crafting and use higher quality mats and tools. That simple.

 

Wurm has one of the best balance of RNG use I’ve seen in a game, with multiple ways to affect your chances. Even though I hate to admit, sometimes RNG in Wurm can drive you nuts (yes, meditation, I'm looking at you :) ).

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I see your post as more evidence that Wurm has gambling combined with game mechanics that are actually good enough to not need gambling. :) You chose to build a large ship, without prior shipbuilding experience, and with low QL resources, knowing that as a result it would take a long time to complete (certainly not an unpredictable outcome :P ).

 

With quality, time to build, and resource usage/wastage systems, why include a gambling system? Is RNG really needed to simulate taking a long time to build something shoddy? :)

 

 

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Because that way there is a choice. Your game is half the game wurm is right now.

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7 hours ago, Yiraia said:

the ql you get is random. There is also very little knowledge given by wurm on what ql you should use on different ores. If you need to get between 1.01 and 40, and you have a chance to get between say 1 and 30 (1 happens pretty often because thats considered a "fail") That chance is enough to make the skill "random." In that case, you don't learn from your big mistakes in mining.

Mine 100 ore, more 1ql than 40ql? raise pickaxe ql. more 40ql than 1ql? lower pickaxe ql. It's not rocket science. the ql isn't entirely random, you can figure out how to get the maximum skill ticks from gathering skills quite easily. Below 80 mining getting 70% ore between 1.01-39.99 is easy to do if you actually pay attention to the end product, or even just calculate the best tool ql for your skill with QL=(difficulty+20)*2-skill.

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47 minutes ago, Erlindur said:

Because that way there is a choice. Your game is half the game wurm is right now.

 

What choice would be I removing? To gamble or to not gamble? To build a ship or to do something else?

 

The irony here is that Wurm -already- has good non-gambling mechanics, only they're partially/inconsistently implemented.

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1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

What choice would be I removing? To gamble or to not gamble? To build a ship or to do something else?

 

The irony here is that Wurm -already- has good non-gambling mechanics, only they're partially/inconsistently implemented.

 

To gamble or not of course. The skills I consider important right now for my toon, I have grind them or still grinding them and I hardly ever fail (in creating, imping is another story altogether). I get better every day in them. I have the game you want already. I also have the option of building a caravel on the side, while semi-afking, through gambling. It is a plus not a minus.

 

What do you want? Your skill is X, the ql of the material you try to place is Y, calculated time of placement is Z? For me is boring. Why? Because I like gambling in this case. I chose it. I like having good and bad days. Otherwise I would simply calculate my estimated time of crafting and allocate the required game time. No, "nice, I had a good day" or "it is not my day" sums at the end. You know, things that make this a game, not a factory job.

 

Edit: Now that I think of it, your high level skills are like your profession while your low ones are like hobbies. You want effectiveness on the first ones, you simply play with the others.  

 

Edited by Erlindur

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11 hours ago, Yiraia said:

*Tries to read*

Man you guys need profile pictures

Maybe they think a thousand words will suffice.

 

=Ayes=

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18 hours ago, Erlindur said:

 

To gamble or not of course. The skills I consider important right now for my toon, I have grind them or still grinding them and I hardly ever fail (in creating, imping is another story altogether). I get better every day in them. I have the game you want already. I also have the option of building a caravel on the side, while semi-afking, through gambling. It is a plus not a minus.

 

What do you want? Your skill is X, the ql of the material you try to place is Y, calculated time of placement is Z? For me is boring. Why? Because I like gambling in this case. I chose it. I like having good and bad days. Otherwise I would simply calculate my estimated time of crafting and allocate the required game time. No, "nice, I had a good day" or "it is not my day" sums at the end. You know, things that make this a game, not a factory job.

 

Edit: Now that I think of it, your high level skills are like your profession while your low ones are like hobbies. You want effectiveness on the first ones, you simply play with the others.  

 

 

LOL. Your definition of an enjoyable game is a -lot- different than mine. :)

 

But since you bring up professions, this discussion reminds me of a guy taking a new job, only to find at day's end that the boss rolls dice to see if the employees get paid. A few lucky employees will get double. The new guy thinks it's crazy, but the other employees assure him that the gambling really spices things up, makes things unpredictable, and that in the long run, it all evens out anyhow. And besides, the whole economy is built around gambling; they couldn't possibly do it any other way.

 

:P

 

Yeah, gambling is fun for a lot of people, and the real reason is that it represents a chance to get something for nothing. Who rolls the dice, hoping they -won't- be the one-in-a-million winner? That's a very exploitable aspect of human nature, and developers who do so deliberately have my disgust.

 

But, all-or-nothing gambling is not necessary to accomplish rolling the dice for something amazing. The rares system in Wurm is a good example. Anything I do, I feel like I have a chance to get something really awesome. If nothing happens, so what? It didn't cost me any baseline work or time. But when it happens, I get that "O wow, a rare!" experience, which is very cool (and well done).

 

So, to go back to your shipbuilding gamble, it would be easy enough to design a system where at X skill it takes Y time to build a caravel with Z resources (which at the minimum required skill would be pretty ugly), but for each action you would get a chance of completing it at a higher QL, or faster, or with fewer resources, within a certain range (tied to your skill), so that you might still have good days and bad days, while never having all-or-nothing gambling.

 

Or, in my workplace analogy, the boss would roll the dice only to give someone a decent bonus, and not to take away their wages for their work.

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All right, so leaving the discussion of random for now, I have something to say, as a newcomer, about Epic and PvP in general.

 

Despite its low population, Epic has been a lot of fun. With a few notable exceptions, it's felt like a grand single-player game, and I've learned a lot about Wurm mechanics.

 

Unfortunately, in digging through old forum posts I learned something today I wasn't happy about: due to horrible game balancing, the only viable PvP Meditation path is insanity. I'm already about to get level 5 in Knowledge, and while I suppose that's early enough that veterans wouldn't have a problem switching, I found the news both discouraging and enlightening.

 

I realized I really hate Meditation as a game mechanic. And this isn't about whether or not I get skill ticks, or the fact that Meditation takes longer to grind on Epic than on Freedom (and what's that about? make it like Faith or Fight and take it off the curve!). What I hate is the imposition of the meditation schedule: both on my real life, and on my Wurm gaming.

 

One thing I really like about Wurm is the feeling of living in a persistent world, that I can visit when I want, and do what I want. Meditation wrecks that. While playing I'm always wondering if it's time for my next meditation, and in RL I'm wondering if I can log in and squeeze out another extra 3-hour gap meditation.

 

I'm not willing let a game mechanic ruin my gameplay (or life) like that. But, due to SOTG, Meditation is absolutely necessary on PvP, and so I'm seriously contemplating jumping over to Freedom, where I can ditch the imprisonment of grinding Meditation and just have fun in PvE. (Refresh seems good, and not hard to get.)

 

What's holding me back are some really nice people I've met on Serenity; I don't want to ditch them. (And I'll confess, I'm also curious about the Valrei update.)

 

But, if I thought that the Meditation schedule were deliberately designed to manipulate people into playing more often, I'd just ditch the game completely.

 

 

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To be honest, when you described the type of game you would like to play, I thought you wouldnt enjoy 1 week of wurm. Then I remembered that the first week is what seems most like survival and then followed up by heavy grinding. You said the following:

Quote

As to my playstyle, I like building, but not as an end in itself, and I also like combat, including PVP, but I prefer coop to solo. I'd want to build/craft/fight to support a team/clan/guild. Is that what a village is?

 

Oh, one thing that tends to turn me off is too much RNG (like Path of Exile: so much grinding to get orbs, only to throw them away if you tried crafting with them, since getting something good is so unlikely). How heavy is the effect of RNG in this game?

Mortal Online seems to be your type of game. I would have said it earlier but I didn't wanna be the guy that says "Run from wurm, its not wurth it." The only issue I think anybody could possibly encounter is the lack of terraforming, possible fps issues, and character specialization (Or being a salty baby when dying in pvp). When you fight, its not just your character and its equipment. You have to aim your swing while in first person. Archery requires you to aim at people as well (to reduce lag they made arrows hit-scan though, so you aim directly on a moving target. sometimes a bit higher for distance). Crafting in the game is also immensely interesting. If you decide to be a chef, potion maker, or anything similar there are a large amount of recipes that can be made randomly. Barely anybody shares the recipes of good items and the wiki is low on info. So if you do some heavy testing in crafting, you can bring your guild further with your unknown crafts. Wurm on the other hand doesn't leave a lot at a mystery, and offers a large amount of information in the game through wurm unlimited (Not all, just a large amount). The closest thing wurm has to compare to Mortal's crafting is food affinities.

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 1:29 AM, Roccandil said:

One thing I really like about Wurm is the feeling of living in a persistent world, that I can visit when I want, and do what I want. Meditation wrecks that. While playing I'm always wondering if it's time for my next meditation, and in RL I'm wondering if I can log in and squeeze out another extra 3-hour gap meditation.

This is why after many years that I never got very far at all with Meditation, that being I don't like being "urged" into any type of schedule within the game wherein some timeframe I need to do anything on a consistent basis. Same with Priests and the prayer timeframe limitation for faith skill gains. It's the free life in Wurm for me! Fortunately I can just abandon and ignore most of the more tedious aspects and enjoy the parts of the game that I choose, which of course is the option for anyone else as well.

 

=Ayes=

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On 10/3/2017 at 8:31 AM, Yiraia said:

To be honest, when you described the type of game you would like to play, I thought you wouldnt enjoy 1 week of wurm. Then I remembered that the first week is what seems most like survival and then followed up by heavy grinding. You said the following:

Mortal Online seems to be your type of game. I would have said it earlier but I didn't wanna be the guy that says "Run from wurm, its not wurth it." The only issue I think anybody could possibly encounter is the lack of terraforming, possible fps issues, and character specialization (Or being a salty baby when dying in pvp). When you fight, its not just your character and its equipment. You have to aim your swing while in first person. Archery requires you to aim at people as well (to reduce lag they made arrows hit-scan though, so you aim directly on a moving target. sometimes a bit higher for distance). Crafting in the game is also immensely interesting. If you decide to be a chef, potion maker, or anything similar there are a large amount of recipes that can be made randomly. Barely anybody shares the recipes of good items and the wiki is low on info. So if you do some heavy testing in crafting, you can bring your guild further with your unknown crafts. Wurm on the other hand doesn't leave a lot at a mystery, and offers a large amount of information in the game through wurm unlimited (Not all, just a large amount). The closest thing wurm has to compare to Mortal's crafting is food affinities.

 

I checked out Mortal Online, and while pieces of it do sound interesting, the forums give a grim picture of the game: lag, griefers camped at newbie spawns, unbalanced combat, etc. (Lag + twitch-based combat sounds especially frustrating.)

 

I'll confess a couple PVP terms were used in the forum conversations I hadn't previously encountered: dunking and carebears. :P I hope this isn't an insult, but I got the impression that the Mortal Online population is, shall we say, younger than that of Wurm Online. :P

 

Anyhow, I don't mind grinding when it isn't tied to gambling. Fighting is a good example; I always get fight skill for kills, if only a little. I wish the other skills were like that, Hot Food Cooking, for instance. There it's a crapshoot as to whether or not I'll get any skillgain, which, from my perspective, is needlessly frustrating for customers. (Another Wurm inconsistency is getting skillgain on failures: some skills do, others don't. The ones that don't can be immensely frustrating to get started.)

 

I'll keep Mortal Online in mind if I ever rage-quit Wurm. :P

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Sounds about right lol, Your earlier description matched the game though. If you are looking for a community where the majority is nice then thats not the game, but I can assure you most of them aren't young (at least the guild i had joined had plenty of adults). Odds are your guild will treat you well and you should expect major salt from any enemy. Crafting itself is truly amazing and the combat COULD be loved. May seem like crap at first, but theres tricks behind it that make it more enjoyable. Only thing i like more in wurm is the PvE option and the fact I can do my easier homework while doing simpler tasks like praying or meditating.

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Will it be true sandbox mmo game with thousands of player in one server/instance like EVE or other mmos or it will be semi  mmo game like survivals games like Kizi Incursion, DayZ, Ark, etc?

Edited by tisepadel

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