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Ayes

Smelters Should Produce Ash

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I'm still unclear why you seek to eliminate one of the big reasons people ground up charcoalmaking (me being one of them).

 

It's like if we could suddenly forge everything out of wood and make mining much less important.

 

If you think making high QL ash is a problem, why not add something that's related to a relevant skill? Say instead of charcoal piles we could have ash piles (using charcoalmaking skill)? They could be smaller (maybe just use a couple of logs or shafts and woodscraps) and burn much faster (say 10 minutes).

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55 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I'm still unclear why you seek to eliminate one of the big reasons people ground up charcoalmaking (me being one of them).

Well, I think I made my reasoning pretty clear. Yet I had always thought people ground up Charcoal making to produce Charcoal with which to make Steel. Didn't really realize that Ash was anything but another byproduct sold off as unnecessary to the Steel producers.

 

=Ayes=

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1 hour ago, Ayes said:

Well, I think I made my reasoning pretty clear.

 

No. In your OP you said why you wanted this change (easy high QL ash for lye and concrete). I get that.

 

I'm not clear why you want to negate the hardwork some of us did to put us in a position where we have easy access to high QL ash.

 

Imping a smelter to 90+, turning it on, and burning a log in it is going to be a lot easier than grinding coalmaking and building piles. This isn't an "alternative" as your OP states, it's a complete replacement.

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No amount of hard work and dedication under bad conditions should ever be used as a justification for keeping them as they are.

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5 hours ago, zigozag said:

No amount of hard work and dedication under bad conditions should ever be used as a justification for keeping them as they are.

That phrase should be the new name of the suggestions forum

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I still haven't seen a justification for why charcoal piles aren't a good source of high QL ash besides "I don't want to grind up charcoal making".

Retro already said charcoal piles aren't lagging the server. And if making 300 charcoal piles lags your computer then make fewer at a time. Or turn off their effects.

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2 hours ago, Hailene said:

I still haven't seen a justification for why charcoal piles aren't a good source of high QL ash besides "I don't want to grind up charcoal making".

Retro already said charcoal piles aren't lagging the server. And if making 300 charcoal piles lags your computer then make fewer at a time. Or turn off their effects.

 

So, for you, keeping your personal profit of RL money out of the game is more important than quality of life improvements.

That is perfect, but i dont think its the reasoning that should rule the suggestions forum.

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10 minutes ago, Rathgar said:

So, for you, keeping your personal profit of RL money out of the game is more important than quality of life improvements.

 

First, I don't sell high QL ash nor anything that uses it (concrete, high QL leather, etc.) So don't mistake my opinion for direct personal gain.

 

Next, in a single word, yes. The whole economic system of Wurm is based on scarcity and demand. Scarcity could be based on time and repetitiveness (like bricks) or skill (like the crafting skills).

 

So I am sure most of us can agree that making charcoal piles isn't all that troublesome. Not with the crafting menu. So why demand high quality ash? Because some people don't want to grind up the pertinent skill to attain it.

 

And I think anyone with a bit of reading comprehension can see that's the heart of the OP.

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On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 9:49 PM, Hailene said:

Imping a smelter to 90+, turning it on, and burning a log in it is going to be a lot easier than grinding coalmaking and building piles. This isn't an "alternative" as your OP states, it's a complete replacement.

Yes, producing Ash by adjusting Smelters to do so will be a lot easier than grinding Charcoal making to create Ash through the piles as a byproduct. You got that part right and it is the intent of my suggestion. Now if it were a "complete replacement" as you state then Charcoal Piles would no longer produce Ash. Since I did not suggest that Ash be removed from Charcoal Piles as a byproduct my suggestion is an *alternative* to producing Ash. Certainly it is the much more attractive "alternative" for those who only wish to produce Ash. Again, that is the intent of my suggestion.

 

15 hours ago, Hailene said:

So I am sure most of us can agree that making charcoal piles isn't all that troublesome. Not with the crafting menu. So why demand high quality ash? Because some people don't want to grind up the pertinent skill to attain it.

Again I disagree with your statement that "making charcoal piles isn't all that troublesome". It in fact a very fail prone process at the lower levels (same as making Lye), so if someone wants to make Charcoal Piles solely for the purpose of creating Ash. to use solely to create Lye. which they solely want to use to produce Concrete, then you count up all these "solely" additions to produce Concrete and they really add up to more than just soles (the singular form of solelys). Yep, I want to reduce some of this excessiveness by suggesting that Smelters produce Ash by the more time saving WU standards.

 

WO goes overboard sometimes in creation processes and requirements and moderate changes such as I have mentioned will improve the quality of all who play the game for *enjoyment* rather than attempt to control certain markets made undesirable to most due to these excesses.

 

15 hours ago, Hailene said:

First, I don't sell high QL ash nor anything that uses it (concrete, high QL leather, etc.) So don't mistake my opinion for direct personal gain.

So if my suggestion were implemented you are not effected in any way by the availability of Ash production from the Smelter alternative and yet you rather strongly protest and object to it. Seems a bit strange to me that you would want to prevent this alternative from being available just because you had ground up Charcoal Making to a high level. Well done then! Grind skills up if you choose but allow others some options as alternatives if they choose not to grind up skills that they really have no interest in just to produce a product (Concrete) which they find beneficial uses for. Maybe they will then be more inclined to use the Concrete to repair mine floors that newbies or carless players have mined into steep pits, which will be helpful to everyone who uses the mine. Imagine that!

 

=Ayes=

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I don't want to make mortar with my 1 masonry it's only a 50% chance :( pls give me mortar from harvesting trees. I need to make concrete fast.

 

No but seriously grinding up or not grinding up a skill has nothing to do with opposing a suggestion that gives a material for free. You can buy ash rather cheap,  if you don't like making it personally.

 

Coal-making is already such a stub skill.. if you get ash for nothing you are basically cutting that skill in half.

Not to mention firemaking anyone ever heard of that skill?? lol

Edited by Kurson

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Coalpiles produce coal. In fact good coalpiles produce very little or no ash, not even mentioning tar (wtf Rolf). The best way imo would be to remove ash and tar from coalpiles completely, increase coal production 3 times in substitution for these and let any furnace produce ash from fuel with QL related to that of the fuel and nothing else.

Edited by zigozag

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-1

 

Make campfires give more ash based on log weight and better ql based on log ql instead.  Making smelter produce ash will make it difficult for people who just want to smelt their ores and dont care about the ash. They will have to start dealing with the ash in order to continue. Besides, are those medieval wurm smelters supposed to produce ash? Doesnt it become part of the slag? 

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Ash quality should be limited by your firemaking skill not smelter quality. Also high quality ash/lye isn't needed to make concrete, I am able to spam out concrete using 20ql lye at 80+NS. 

 

I'm down for improving things but keep free hand outs out of Wurm. 

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Ash from coal piles and camp fires is skill based, for materials as well as making the fire or pile.

 

Getting high ql ash from a smelter with no ties to skill does not seem right in the scheme of things.

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Instead of getting free ash for burning fuel, why not have smelters make charcoal from logs and ash from kindling the same way they melt ore into lumps.

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5 hours ago, Darmalus said:

Instead of getting free ash for burning fuel, why not have smelters make charcoal from logs and ash from kindling the same way they melt ore into lumps.

That's pretty much how charcoal kilns or good charcoal piles work afaik.

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1 hour ago, zigozag said:

That's pretty much how charcoal kilns or good charcoal piles work afaik.

Yeah, and I'd support adding ash kilns and charcoal kilns as well. Whichever way works with me.

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12 hours ago, Darmalus said:

Instead of getting free ash for burning fuel, why not have smelters make charcoal from logs and ash from kindling the same way they melt ore into lumps.

 

This is not a bad idea. It keeps wood quality as the quality cap on the ash. None of this getting 90ql ash from fueling your smelter with wood scraps.

 

I'm ambivalent toward adding specialized equipment for producing ash and charcoal. It wouldn't be too much of a burden, but really, how many different heat sources do we need?

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As far as I can tell, campfires made from wood kindling produces ash at the QL of the kindling about 75% of the time and my firestarting skill is just in the 30 range.

So if I got and lit a 50 tile area with campfires on each tile I can produce pretty much 3/4 of it at QL. The rest is usually only off about 5 or 10of the orginal QL.

And it's faster then piles, so adding this would not change anything to "hurt" coalpile making since it's been in game all this time, in fact they nerfed the making multiply campfires on one tile, wonder why? Someone complained it was to easy to get ash that way probably.

Edited by Talohan
typo
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On 01/09/2017 at 2:45 AM, zigozag said:

No amount of hard work and dedication under bad conditions should ever be used as a justification for keeping them as they are.

I extremely disagree with that. There comes a point where people are asking for things to be too simple.

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On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 2:43 AM, Talohan said:

As far as I can tell, campfires made from wood kindling produces ash at the QL of the kindling about 75% of the time and my firestarting skill is just in the 30 range.

So if I got and lit a 50 tile area with campfires on each tile I can produce pretty much 3/4 of it at QL. The rest is usually only off about 5 or 10of the orginal QL.

And it's faster then piles, so adding this would not change anything to "hurt" coalpile making since it's been in game all this time

Yes, what you point out about making campfires to create Ash is correct. This multiple campfire making is exactly what I was attempting to avoid with my OP suggestion by enabling Smelters to create Ash.

 

Perhaps it would be more acceptable to Devs (or some) to make the Ash produced based upon the QL of the log used rather than the Smelter QL. Then also the amount of Ash produced could be based upon the amount of kindling a log would produce. Not sure offhand what the number of Ash would be. Also, as there is a max burning time per item where adding more of the item does not prolong it, this could make it necessary to add another log over time to continue to produce more Ash. So in this way the Smelter still has to be refueled over time or relit once again to continue to produce more.

 

=Ayes=

Edited by Ayes
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You guys are going to force people to pickup ash all the time either from the smelter or from the ground, and for what? For something that is not even realistic (so making the game more immersive would not be a reason to do it). Anything put into the smelter is either going to be sticking to the bricks as a thin layer or be part of the slag (the liquid that will seperate from the molten metal). 

 

You can say that wurm doesnt have to be realistic, it has magic. Well, smelter doesnt have to produce ash either, and they can make it so you produce ash out of thin air using magic, using fire pillar or something. Or forges can produce it, which they should be able to (while also not practical).

 

We should just be able to make big campfires and get the ash from that.

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I have to admit gaining ash is a pain in the ars, at the same time if you're burning something there should be ash.. at least if you use a log to keep it lit. Maybe throwing logs into a fire adds more ash in the end? Making Coal piles is another pain that not everyone will even bother venturing in. 

I do enjoy making fires, Runescape style...although even Runescape stopped that method of fire making and now just let you throw your logs into one fire, I think Wurm should catch up. 

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On 9/2/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ayes said:

Now if it were a "complete replacement" as you state then Charcoal Piles would no longer produce Ash.

 

If you could make concrete by mixing water and rockshards how often would you make concrete with lye and mortar? Effectively never. That's a "complete replacement".

 

If you had a choice of spending 100+ hours to grind up coalmaking (woodcutting and digging, too, probably) to make ash...or just chuck a high QL log into a smelter, which one would you do? That's effectively a "complete replacement".

 

On 9/2/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ayes said:

in fact a very fail prone process at the lower levels

 

You just described how just about everything in Wurm works. If you want something to be easy, grind up the skill.

 

You can't complain that making a caravel is too hard when you have 15 shipbuilding.

 

On 9/2/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ayes said:

So if my suggestion were implemented you are not effected in any way by the availability of Ash production from the Smelter alternative and yet you rather strongly protest and object to it.

 

Of course I strongly protest it. It doesn't match the rest of how we obtain resources in Wurm (grind the appropriate skill).

 

If someone tried to tax left handed people for being left-handed I would still protest against this as a right handed person. It isn't right.

 

On 9/2/2017 at 2:57 AM, Ayes said:

Grind skills up if you choose but allow others some options as alternatives if they choose not to grind up skills that they really have no interest in just to produce a product (Concrete) which they find beneficial uses for.

 

In society we have a way to get around having something we want but don't want to do. We pay someone to do it for us.

 

It's how the economy works.

On 9/2/2017 at 8:40 AM, JakeRivers said:

Getting high ql ash from a smelter with no ties to skill does not seem right in the scheme of things.

 

I agree with you. Honestly if people want more ash but none of the other charcoal pile products than an ashpile of sorts would be fine.

 

Just make it similar to charcoal piles where it's connected to a skill. Either firemaking or charcoalmaking and have the pile's QL linked to the skill and mats.

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