About the Gambling rule

[Angelklaine 4,266]

Think of the spirit of the rule and I am sure you will have your answer. If your intention is to gamble, then you are gambling. I mean, I am no GM and cant interpret the rules any more than you can, but you can't hover a finger at someone's face while screaming "I'm not touching you!" and expect them to be okay with it.

 

In the end, its their game and they own all the virtual items inside of it, including currency. You rmt at your own risk. If you try to be clever, they can easily seize assets for trying to skirt the rules and no amount of rule lawyering will change things. There are many other rules that can be cited, and if it is illegal in their country, they have a reasonable explanation to do so. The company should not be expected to put all their assets at risk because you want to make a few bucks.

 

Be reasonable. If you are attempting to gamble, stop. I don't see GMs taking loot from players because they pooled their drake hide together and rolled for who would get it all. Thats ludricous.

[Yiraia 427]

So im allowed to charge people to do a cast on their tools... right? If a person sends me some copper and their tool there is a chance i will shatter, damage it, get no cast, get an okay cast, or get a really good cast. Nothing is guaranteed, Priests are honestly like walking slot machines. If I'm not allowed to then im okay with just pre-casting stuff and selling it.

[Xallo 2,599]

40 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

Think of the spirit of the rule and I am sure you will have your answer. If your intention is to gamble, then you are gambling. I mean, I am no GM and cant interpret the rules any more than you can, but you can't hover a finger at someone's face while screaming "I'm not touching you!" and expect them to be okay with it.

 

In the end, its their game and they own all the virtual items inside of it, including currency. You rmt at your own risk. If you try to be clever, they can easily seize assets for trying to skirt the rules and no amount of rule lawyering will change things. There are many other rules that can be cited, and if it is illegal in their country, they have a reasonable explanation to do so. The company should not be expected to put all their assets at risk because you want to make a few bucks.

 

Be reasonable. If you are attempting to gamble, stop. I don't see GMs taking loot from players because they pooled their drake hide together and rolled for who would get it all. Thats ludricous.

 

Make it simple and monetary (silver in this case) only, and/or, disallow profits from the organizer.

 

Simple solution: Disallow raffles that require an entry fee to participate. Allow, for example, the collection of hide from a dragon, to be pooled together (non-forcibly), and then raffled out to one person, as long as the organizer does not receive profit.

 

Advanced solution: Allow raffles that require an entry fee to participate, but not more than the value of said item, so that organizer does not receive profit that exceeds the value of said item. For example, I could raffle out a Drake set for 1g (standard price, essentially), and charge people 5s per ticket, selling up to a max of 20. Someone will be happy to win a set for 5s, and the seller will get the amount of money that is fair for said item. Perhaps an in-game raffling system could be implemented for this, because I think it would be a fun way to actually sell things, and buy things.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Xallo

[Pashka 707]

This is the 2nd time I have seen someone in here attempt to do a lottery/raffle type thing.  The last guy allowed you to pay in Euros or Silver.  While gambling is indeed fun and a bit of a thrill, there are different laws that govern that.  I doubt anyone would want to go through and figure out what you can and cannot do.  Some states do not allow online gambling.  I think I have seen others that you can.  Same for different countries.  Just seems like a much bigger headache than it is worth for a moment of fun.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

need sommer blink

[Mclavin 3,704]

RNG

[Ecrir 887]

10 hours ago, Xallo said:

 

Make it simple and monetary (silver in this case) only, and/or, disallow profits from the organizer.

 

Simple solution: Disallow raffles that require an entry fee to participate. Allow, for example, the collection of hide from a dragon, to be pooled together (non-forcibly), and then raffled out to one person, as long as the organizer does not receive profit.

 

Advanced solution: Allow raffles that require an entry fee to participate, but not more than the value of said item, so that organizer does not receive profit that exceeds the value of said item. For example, I could raffle out a Drake set for 1g (standard price, essentially), and charge people 5s per ticket, selling up to a max of 20. Someone will be happy to win a set for 5s, and the seller will get the amount of money that is fair for said item. Perhaps an in-game raffling system could be implemented for this, because I think it would be a fun way to actually sell things, and buy things.

 

 

Problem is that those things are still gambling and Swedish law gives the government a monopoly on gambling. Code Club isn't allowed to host any gambling, even if they don't make a profit of said gambling. Problem is that all the gamblers are paying Code Club for premium and silver, so Code Club is definetly making a profit, as are the winners of said raffles. While you could see the organizer of the raffle as the host, the law likely also sees Code Club as the host and code Club doesn't want to take unnecessary risks, thus the anti gambling rules and cracking down on several cases of gambling. Another way to address it would likely be to make it bannable to cash out anything you have in game, thus banning the selling of items/silver/accounts for euros. Personally I'd rather they ban gambling than that.

 

They probably won't go after the unique loot raffle thing if it remains low profile. They've effectively endorsed it for years already.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Ecrir

[Matholameu 345]

... just one more reason to search for a better game. I'll give Wurm one thing, I haven't been able to find a better sandbox.

[Jaz 2,666]

Online gambling laws are sometimes harsh. A big hit onSecond Life was when they were forced to cease gambling in the world - it was a very noticeable drop o nuser count and activity. True that there were a LOT of ingame casinos and other gambling spots. Not an easy task to comply with RL laws which are quite rigid when looked at from a virtual world. I feel a better wording could help on the gambling rule in Wurm but I'm aware it is not an easy rule to set - to be in line with RL laws and leaving as much freedom in game as possible.

[Retrograde 12,013]

As has been said before, this isnt a "new rule". It's been our stance on any instances or reports of gambling and is a far from common occurence

 

Unique loot, deciding who gets what, and all sorts of things have always been fine.

 

Basically, nothing changes, this is just clarifying our stance publicly after a few questions from players about what would happen if they started promoting betting and gambling ingame. There's actual laws governing it, as well as a huge amount of potential claims of scamming or theft, and the issues it could cause.

 

[Rathgar 959]

I have a bit of an issue, regarding what other user said.

Because on one side, the real world does not see WO currency as real money, its not even your property, the silver belongs to wurm.

 

Basically, the silver coins are the same as any other item that you could use as currency, (except that the devs chose it to act as currency).

 

So, does the rule aplies to any activity that has entry fee and chance of profit (the drake hide example), or only those that need to be payed with real money, like entry fees payed through paypal.

 

To sum it up, my main doubt is, for the Wurm devs, are silver coins RL currency or in-game items?

[Pashka 707]

The rules do apply for this because you can buy silver from the shop.  Equate that to buying chips from the dealer.

[Rathgar 959]

5 minutes ago, Pashka said:

The rules do apply for this because you can buy silver from the shop.  Equate that to buying chips from the dealer.

 

I dont think they equate to casino chips, since they are tokens to make handling real money easier and you can exchange them only with the establishment.  While Wurms silver is the oposite, you can buy it from wurm, but you cannot sell it to wurm.

 

Mostly they are diferent, because it is a virtual item that you never hold or own.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

3 hours ago, Rathgar said:

 

I dont think they equate to casino chips, since they are tokens to make handling real money easier and you can exchange them only with the establishment.  While Wurms silver is the oposite, you can buy it from wurm, but you cannot sell it to wurm.

 

Mostly they are diferent, because it is a virtual item that you never hold or own.

It goes back to the same premise. Currency is currency. If you are playing cards, or any other game of chance that has an entry fee, you are gambling. Period. You can use rock shards, or even animal parts, and then cash them out for real money, silver, or whatever. Someone is profiting (the house) from a game of chance. Thats gambling.

 

Lotteries that require an entry ticket, online casinos, ticket raffles with a sign up cost, etc. If the intention is playing a game of chance, I would say it definitely fall within the rule.

 

Splitting loot or giving it to single player who rolls an 89 is not gambling.

 

Split hairs all you want, but this is a pretty clear rule and a rather fair one. No one gets scammed, and Code Club gets to comply with the law. If you want to gamble, there are plenty online casinos out there. If you want to gamble with your friends, download a card game and have at it. There are plenty venues out there to play games of chance.

 

My 2i anyways.

[Redd 4,281]

If i pay premium, and pay IRL cash to get better gear, to roll RNG, to win wurm PvP, of which the likelihood of winning is loot, which I can sell. Is that considered gambling?

[Pashka 707]

I think some of you like to argue because you are not doing as much pvp as normal.  Those threads are much more entertaining than you trying to twist logic here.  Can we get more of that?

[Cecci 1,611]

The Lotterilagen and the Kasinolagen are both full of words and can't be boiled down to two sentences.

https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/kasinolag-1999355_sfs-1999-355

http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/lotterilag-19941000_sfs-1994-1000

Both the laws are in swedish, sorry no translations.

 

It is very strict about gambling in Sweden and we actually got our first casino as late as in 2001, we have a total of 4 now , all owned and run by the state.

Onlinecasino gambling is also forbidden in Sweden so we may not play at such casinos situated abroad.

There are some workarounds thou.

 

 

 

All legal gambling is state controlled via a few companies such as: (links to english wiki, except the link for the horse gambling)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svenska_Spel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_Cosmopol

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktiebolaget_Trav_och_Galopp

 

ATG (horses) is private but half of the boardmembers are assigned by the state.

 

It is all controlled by the administration agency Lotteriinspektionen.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotteriinspektionen

https://www.lotteriinspektionen.se/en/

[SmeJack 5,806]

10 hours ago, Redd said:

If i pay premium, and pay IRL cash to get better gear, to roll RNG, to win wurm PvP, of which the likelihood of winning is loot, which I can sell. Is that considered gambling?

 

Its as much gambling as a newspaper or Netflix subscription, you are paying for premium access to a video game nothing more or less. The only thing I could see to come from all the nit picking is a lock down on the freedom to sell your characters and items.

[Rathgar 959]

15 hours ago, Angelklaine said:

It goes back to the same premise. Currency is currency. If you are playing cards, or any other game of chance that has an entry fee, you are gambling. Period. You can use rock shards, or even animal parts, and then cash them out for real money, silver, or whatever. Someone is profiting (the house) from a game of chance. Thats gambling.

 

Lotteries that require an entry ticket, online casinos, ticket raffles with a sign up cost, etc. If the intention is playing a game of chance, I would say it definitely fall within the rule.

 

Splitting loot or giving it to single player who rolls an 89 is not gambling.

 

Split hairs all you want, but this is a pretty clear rule and a rather fair one. No one gets scammed, and Code Club gets to comply with the law. If you want to gamble, there are plenty online casinos out there. If you want to gamble with your friends, download a card game and have at it. There are plenty venues out there to play games of chance.

 

My 2i anyways.

 

Yes, I get all that, and I agree, and there are practices that are clearly gamblling. I only have issues with the definition, since there is no "cashing" of whatever you win, or at least its not done by Wurm.

(im not defending a practice, Im not a gambler in RL and never did loot rolls or whatever in wurm, just curious about the interpretation of the rules and definitions adopted by the devs)

[Angelklaine 4,266]

The definition is pretty clear. Do not gamble. If what you are doing looks and feels like gambling, don't do it. If in doubt, ask staff. IRC is available to everyone. There is no way GMs can post an all inclusive, detailed list of what is gambling and what is not. We can all spend weeks here asking questions for clairification on every single scenario we can think of, and someone will still come with a "what if I...." and we will get nowhere.

 

If you sit everyone around a table, and start passing around chickens and eggs to bet with, and roll your dice to see who gets the pot, and then you take that pot and have some super sekrit way to cash it out, and you get caught... then thats on you. I am sure common sense dictates it for you that you are gambling.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Angelklaine