About the Gambling rule

[Alexgopen 2,376]

Quote

 

Gambling

Definition:

*Gambling is prohibited in Wurm Online due to Swedish law.

*Gambling is considered to be any type of activity where the winning of a prize is determined by chance and requires payment of any form to participate.

*Contests of chance requiring NO form of payment to participate are allowed.

 

Punishment: You may be given a directive, warned, or even banned based on the situation.

 

I think this needs more explanation.

 

According to the TOS: Purchase of silver coins is payment for a service provided by Code Club AB. Silver coins have no real world value.

This would mean you are not actually gambling real money right? Or should the TOS state that silver does have real world value?

 

Gambling is considered to be any type of activity where the winning of a prize is determined by chance and requires payment of any form to participate.

 

Payment: .01 drakehide, your own effort in a unique slaying

Determined by chance: /random

Are unique slaying rolls now prohibited? Does each and every player have to go home with their .01 drakehide or else risk a ban? 

 

Payment: earned loot, PvP supplies, and your own effort in PvP

Determined by chance: /random

Is rolling on loot after pvp now prohibited?  Who gets the loot now at the end of a raid or skirmish if you are not allowed to roll on loot?

 

I understand there are good intentions of preventing harmful gambling, but the way the new rule is worded contradicts the TOS as well as makes certain common and useful ingame loot distribution methods bannable.  Rolling for loot has always been the conventional way of determining either pick order or who gets what, and was an easy and fair way to do so.  This doesn't seem to be the intended outcome of the rule, and I think it should either be reworded or have exceptions added for acceptable uses.

[JDBooker 344]

payment with in game coin is still payment.

 

Quote

Oxford dictionary...

• 1mass noun The action or process of paying someone or something or of being paid.

  ‘ask for a discount for payment by cash’

   

  count noun ‘three interest-free monthly payments’

  More example sentences

  Synonyms

• 2An amount paid or payable.

  ‘a compensation payment of £2500’

   

  More example sentences

  Synonyms

  1. 2.1mass noun Something given as a reward or in recompense for something done.
     ‘a suit with a velvet collar that I got as payment for being in the show’

 

So according to meaning 2.1, "payment" does not need to be real world currency, just "something given", that being, entry to the gamble.

[Gumbo 1,563]

2 hours ago, Alexgopen said:

Gambling is considered to be any type of activity where the winning of a prize is determined by chance and requires payment of any form to participate.

 

Payment: .01 drakehide, your own effort in a unique slaying

Determined by chance: /random

Are unique slaying rolls now prohibited? Does each and every player have to go home with their .01 drakehide or else risk a ban? 

 

 

The drake/scale hide is the reward for killing the hatchling/dragon. Unless you're charging people to come kill the unique, I don't see any gambling. Actually, since everyone is getting some hide, there's no winners or losers. Definitely not gambling.

Also, unless you're charging people to enter the random rolls for the other goodies, then I don't believe it's breaking the gambling rule.

"Free to enter" or not, seems to be the determining factor.

 

[Matholameu 345]

TLDR: This entire game (other than F2P) requires payment and is RNG based. This entire game is gambling.

[Etherdrifter 2,518]

So...  What sparked all this then?

[Postinglels 1,270]

37 minutes ago, Etherdrifter said:

So...  What sparked all this then?

 

Dingov likely released MR's controversial horseracing forum page

[Guest Peacemaker]

Just to clear something up, this is not actually a new stance on gambling.  It has always been against the rules and has been blocked from happening before.

 

The idea of having fun contests that do not require payment to participate is something we did not want to discourage so the rule was kept more internal.  There is the issue of legal concerns as well as scamming so it was found best to make our stance on the matter more public.

 

Nothing has changed.

[Kurson 190]

I mean if u only include people in the roll if they give away any hide they got, then it is gambling isn't it? Or is that not what op asked?

[Xallo 2,599]

1 hour ago, Peacemaker said:

Just to clear something up, this is not actually a new stance on gambling.  It has always been against the rules and has been blocked from happening before.

 

The idea of having fun contests that do not require payment to participate is something we did not want to discourage so the rule was kept more internal.  There is the issue of legal concerns as well as scamming so it was found best to make our stance on the matter more public.

 

Nothing has changed.

 

That's not entirely smart, hiding enforced rules that can potentially get someone banned. It's better to be transparent about things that can potentially ruin what someone has worked for because of the differences of legalities across various states and countries, especially if you plan to, and have, enforced it.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Xallo

[Alyeska 2,621]

1 hour ago, Peacemaker said:

Just to clear something up, this is not actually a new stance on gambling.  It has always been against the rules and has been blocked from happening before.

 

The idea of having fun contests that do not require payment to participate is something we did not want to discourage so the rule was kept more internal.  There is the issue of legal concerns as well as scamming so it was found best to make our stance on the matter more public.

 

Nothing has changed.

 

Perhaps with the more public should also come a bit more clarification. I've seen people sell raffle tickets for items, unique rolls for loot, res stones you can purchase that may or may not work. There's been some talk of betting on spars or horse races. The whole game is based on random numbers, and there's a lot of forms of payment of all types, there needs to be some specification on what this gambling includes. 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

There is a difference between item lottery drops and gambling. When you kill an unique, and it drops a tome, you gambled nothing. You simply got loot.

 

I think the rule means that players cannot charge others to participate in a game of chance. If I do a raffle between my friends for Christmas, and give out a gift, no one is gambling as there was no payment to participate. Now, if I charge 5 silver as an entry fee, thats when the rule comes into place.

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

that reminds me...2 days ago in a land not so far far far away

[14:02:52] Welcome back! Elevation has been waiting for you.
[14:02:53] You enter High Hopes.
[14:02:53] You enter Jenn-Kellon.
[14:02:53] You feel the presence of Fo.
[14:02:53] You may not move right now.
[14:02:53] No other players are online on Elevation (479 totally in Wurm).
[14:02:53] Type /help for available commands.
[14:02:53] You are not invulnerable here.
[14:02:57] You feel rested.

 

No players on..but i'm there..wait..i'm a nobody..continue please.

Edited August 26, 2017 by shakys
moderation edit.

[Angelklaine 4,266]

No OTHER players are on.

 

Other than you.

[Niki 2,278]

Raffle tickets is considered gambling right? If that person is charging a fee I mean.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Niki

[Angelklaine 4,266]

If you pay for the tickets, yes. If they are free no. You arent gambling anything.

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

4 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

No OTHER players are on.

 

Other than you.

Gotem!  yes 'm aware, it was both a refrrence of no players to vinius, and calling myself a nobody..all humor nothing literal.  Watch for that low hanging fruit..it got adam n eve.  could replace shark week with Next on discovery...when forums trigger.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Bloodscythe

[Angelklaine 4,266]

But you are somebody to me... <3

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

that's what makes me nervous..cause of reasons

[Niki 2,278]

I think this thread might of been the issue. 

 

[Alexgopen 2,376]

26 minutes ago, Angelklaine said:

There is a difference between item lottery drops and gambling. When you kill an unique, and it drops a tome, you gambled nothing. You simply got loot.

 

I think the rule means that players cannot charge others to participate in a game of chance. If I do a raffle between my friends for Christmas, and give out a gift, no one is gambling as there was no payment to participate. Now, if I charge 5 silver as an entry fee, thats when the rule comes into place.

 

On epic unique slayings, typically everyone who participated in the slaying pools all their hide together at the end, and then the group all roll with /random to determine who gets the hide from that slaying.  This way someone can actually make something of use with the hide rather than just having a useless .01kg scrap.  In this style of unique slaying, the payment is your .01 scrap of hide, and you are rolling for the prize by random chance.  This is similar to the typical method of loot distribution after pvp, where all the loot earned from kills/raids is thrown into a pile (regardless of who got the kill) and then the players do /random to determine either pick order or to determine who gets a certain valuable item by who rolls highest.  This is seen by most as the fairest way to determine who gets pvp loot, as the results cant be cheated or lied about (it's right there for everyone to see ingame).

 

By the wording of the new gambling rule, both of these standard (at least on epic) loot distribution methods would become bannable. 

[Postinglels 1,270]

We must seize the means of gambling and use forums outside of wurm to gamble (its not like anyone ever had something bad happen to them due to events outside of wurms main board and ingame)

[Zenity 728]

6 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

On epic unique slayings, typically everyone who participated in the slaying pools all their hide together at the end, and then the group all roll with /random to determine who gets the hide from that slaying.  This way someone can actually make something of use with the hide rather than just having a useless .01kg scrap.  In this style of unique slaying, the payment is your .01 scrap of hide, and you are rolling for the prize by random chance.  This is similar to the typical method of loot distribution after pvp, where all the loot earned from kills/raids is thrown into a pile (regardless of who got the kill) and then the players do /random to determine either pick order or to determine who gets a certain valuable item by who rolls highest.  This is seen by most as the fairest way to determine who gets pvp loot, as the results cant be cheated or lied about (it's right there for everyone to see ingame).

 

By the wording of the new gambling rule, both of these standard (at least on epic) loot distribution methods would become bannable. 

 

No, you're conflating hide with money.

 

If you sell your hide you have money, but no hide: not gambling.

If you keep your hide you have no money, but still have hide: not gambling.

If you pay a copper to roll for the loot, you have less money, and a chance of loot: that's gambling.

 

And the rule is not new, It's been around for years, so long in fact I barely remember the post mentioning it, but it was before the new forums...

[Angelklaine 4,266]

12 minutes ago, Alexgopen said:

 

On epic unique slayings, typically everyone who participated in the slaying pools all their hide together at the end, and then the group all roll with /random to determine who gets the hide from that slaying.  This way someone can actually make something of use with the hide rather than just having a useless .01kg scrap.  In this style of unique slaying, the payment is your .01 scrap of hide, and you are rolling for the prize by random chance.  This is similar to the typical method of loot distribution after pvp, where all the loot earned from kills/raids is thrown into a pile (regardless of who got the kill) and then the players do /random to determine either pick order or to determine who gets a certain valuable item by who rolls highest.  This is seen by most as the fairest way to determine who gets pvp loot, as the results cant be cheated or lied about (it's right there for everyone to see ingame).

 

By the wording of the new gambling rule, both of these standard (at least on epic) loot distribution methods would become bannable. 

The same is done in pvp after a dude with a drake set dies. Rolling for loot is not gambling. In the case of the unique you are not paying an entry fee, you are pooling the loot acquired 

 

Its the spirit of it. Sure we can split hairs and say the hide have value and that you are gambling its worth in silver, but everyone there is of the understanding that the hide will be pooled. You can't just walk away and say "My hide... eff you!" Well, you can, but that will be the last time you will be allowed to participate. There is a difference between gambling earnings and working together towards a common goal. I trust the GMs to know the difference and not ban me because I am charging someone for an rng single cast.

[Xallo 2,599]

12 minutes ago, Zenity said:

 

No, you're conflating hide with money.

 

If you sell your hide you have money, but no hide: not gambling.

If you keep your hide you have no money, but still have hide: not gambling.

If you pay a copper to roll for the loot, you have less money, and a chance of loot: that's gambling.

 

And the rule is not new, It's been around for years, so long in fact I barely remember the post mentioning it, but it was before the new forums...

 

That's not exactly answering his question.

 

If you "sell" / give your hide to a pool, you have less hide / theoretical money, and a chance of loot.... Is that gambling, or allowed?

 

In the wording of the current rules, it's touchy at best.

 

Edit: This clause is the touchy one:

 

*Gambling is considered to be any type of activity where the winning of a prize is determined by chance and requires payment of any form to participate.

> Any form can easily be translated to .01kg of hide.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Xallo

[Gumbo 1,563]

Not sure how well this will go over, but... a few years ago I sort of worked out a way to create an in game deck of cards (using gems, rubys were hearts, sapphires were spades, etc). My plan was to hold a weekly/monthly game of Texas Hold'em with friends. Only problem being, that gambling thingy. So thought, why not simply sell each player 10s worth of wooden shafts (think matchsticks) that would be used in place of actual betting money. Since it isn't against the rules to sell things like shafts for silvers, there shouldn't be a problem. Once there was a winner, they would sell me all their wooden shafts for the money I charged everyone at the start (for wooden shafts). Now I know this was a work around, and likely frowned upon as far as staffers/rules go, but I never went through with it. If a GM were to "raid" the game, all everyone would have to do is say "it's for fun, look there's no money on the table, only dirt cheap wooden shafts".

 

I'd like to now know if something like this would be possible or punishable?

Thx