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Mickaell

Wurm in Unreal Engine?

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Hi. 

Me and a friend were wondering, what would it be like if someone either ported or made up Wurm from scratch in Unreal engine?

 

Think about it, all the limitations of java would be lifted, you could have real physics, actual jumping, things could have weight and collisions, and combat would not be dull anymore.

 

Adapting it shouldn't be that difficult? right? I mean it's java code, no pointers or anything it can be translated to C++? well im not a programmer i wouldn't know, but still, the idea excites me, what do you think?

Edited by Mickaell

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Yeah Wurm would be amazing in unreal. 

 

Not the first time this has been mentioned, not the fifth or sixth either.  Unlikely it'd ever happen as recoding the entire game would take a couple years if not longer.. and to keep any player data intact would further prolong this effort.

 

Very much doubt you'd ever see this happen, aside from a port stemming off Wurm Unlimited.

Edited by Nomadikhan

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The game would have to start over from scratch, a complete wipe of deeds and maps (you might be able to port over "character skills" since those are pretty much just numbers, but probably not terrain, buildings etc). 

 

This would probably cause you to lose a lot of remaining oldtime players who have invested many years and hundreds/thousands of dollars into their deeds and characters, getting everything just the way they wanted it. 

 

You'd pretty much be simply creating an entirely new game, and it would be much better to approach it that way. Call it "Wurm 2.0" if you like, as that's been discussed often over the years. So the question becomes, "Should Wurm 2.0 use some other engine than java." Be aware all of your current developers are trained/skilled in the engine the original game uses, so you would have at least an enormous initial drop in productivity.

 

Since it would now be an entirely different game, it's likely that different choices would be made in things like, how terraforming works, or construction.

 

Some people would like this new game more, and some would like it less.

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Just now, Brash_Endeavors said:

Some people would like this new game more, and some would like it less.

I'm just thinking that Wurm as it is currently, won't last for another 10 years. It's the nature of things. Games are getting more and more into the engine/mechanics/graphics and less into the complexity/.content.  Wurm or something like it needs to be made modernly ,to have the complexity + engine

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There are more complex online games that have risen and fallen, and many that have shuttered for good, while Wurm manages to somehow stagger on, and actually become a better game with each passing year. it's actually a far better game than it was five or ten years ago. I started in 2011, and I am still a noob compared to some of the regulars here.

 

Few online games are capable of lasting 10  years, I am sure many of us can list very popular games we played 10 years ago that no longer exist today. 

 

That fact that Wurm survived where many others failed, is actually a sign it's doing something right.  

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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This has been argued to death and the fundamental truth behind this fallacy is this: A different engine wouldn't change anything.

 

Wurm is a ground up engine created for java. Whatever "issues" you think are present because it is a Java based engine are just not there. If anything, the game is created with more specific intent then a licence engine could allow for. The problem you have with Wurm is it is old

 

The only benefits a new engine could potentially bring is a reinvention from the ground up of what you consider to be dated. We are talking about a decade of legacy code written by some people that don't work for the company anymore. Whether that is good or bad, who can say, but it would likely be a fundementally different game, with a different development vision. Additionally, it could allow for a slightly more streamlined development cycle, after everything has been rebuilt, but the time it would take to do that could be 5+ years. 

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And don't forget, while other games grow in many different aspects, Wurm still has a niche where it is unique and as long as that is the case, it will survive, even as an "old" game.

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Some past discussions on the topic (the topic comes up now and then):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'd be better off simply creating a new game that includes the Wurm-like elements you like. I am not even sure UE4 is capable of handling 1000-2500 people online at a time? Which Wurm has done at times. Especially the way Wurm players love to hoard objects, each item of which has very complex and unique diffences in quality, materials etc.  Most games simply find that complexity impossible to handle. You make a hammer in most games, and it is the exact same hammer that everyone else has.

 

If you announced they might have to reduce their hoarding and simplify the complexity to allow people to JUMP and stuff, a large number would simply leave.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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17 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

That fact that Wurm survived where many others failed, is actually a sign it's doing something right.  

i don't think 30 people online at most times on the only PVP server is what you might call "survival".

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A game's engine determines it's personality. If you rebuild the game in another engine, it simply ends up being a different game.

 

For an action oriented game with lots of jumping and physics etc, you generally have to reduce the complexity of terraforming, construction and crafting. 

 

 

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Just now, Brash_Endeavors said:

 

For an action oriented game with lots of jumping and physics etc, you generally have to reduce the complexity of construction and crafting. 

 

 

I don't see why.

Look at minecraft, it's even got gliders in it lmao

Edited by Mickaell

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8 minutes ago, Brash_Endeavors said:

I am not even sure UE4 is capable of handling 1000-2500 people online at a time?

Blade and soul was made in unreal engine, it's an mmorpg.

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8 minutes ago, Mickaell said:

i don't think 30 people online at most times on the only PVP server is what you might call "survival".

 

That is a problem caused by a veritable mountain of issues, none of which have anything to do with Java. Some may have a bit to do with the engine, but part of the beauty of a ground-up engine, is that it can be modified to suit new mechanics (if legacy code doesn't get in the way and break everything). 

Edited by GorgonKain
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Check out Life is Feudal. The MMO is coming out soon. It started with stand-alone servers. It is Wurm with all of the modern gaming flare. I believe I saw an interview a few years ago where the devs found Wurm, fell it love with it, and then were inspired to start their project.

 

The only downfall is the prefabricated buildings. This does lead to more realistic looking villages, but it doesn't allow the freedom that is Wurm. 

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Wurm is the best at what it does right. It is a sandbox mmo.  It is a creative game.  The reason there are not many people in PVP is because that is not the biggest palyer base. Never was.  When the JK Home debacle came, many went looking for a new game similar to Wurm.  There are none to be found.  I had seen some trying to create a game like this, never happened. This game is unique and I hope it stays that way. 

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switching code from one language to another don't take years or even months where do you'll get this info? We have language converters for years now only thing you end up is changing some code syntax from the conversion.

New engines like unreal is bad for wurm cause of the way the company wants x amount of your profit. Unity how ever is a better engine cause they don't ask for all that and is more indy friendly than unreal. Unity can do every thing unreal can do and if you ever used both engines to experiment with you would know this.

 

Wurm would benefit if it went to unity and it wouldn't take years to do only a few weeks to convert and get it up and running again and no you really wouldn't have to restart the servers over either. Not to mention unity uses c# which is the next object program language. A ton of developers in triple A titles have been switching out of C++ and to C#. C# is just like java and the syntax is similar so wouldn't be a huge adjustment for a team of java developers to switch too. Unity would be the choice to go.

 

Wurm would benefit so much to switch to unity engine simply cause it is a real complete engine that don't need to be built unlike the wurm java engine still has to be built to do some of the most simple task.

 

This topic tho is like beating a dead horse they will never switch so please don't hold your breath hoping.

 

Note unity has so much software and systems pre built that can be bought it isn't funny. here is a clip on a system i bought and have full control over and can use in my own game production and don't have to pay royalties.

This is just 1 program they don't have to write but just learn how to use in the unity engine and it only cost me 60 dollars us. this isn't but a tip of the ice burg here, there is so much software available on the asset store.

 

Like I said don't hold your breath but please watch all the videos on unistorm them guys made some very nice software for a game.

 

 

Edited by Arkonick
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On 3/7/2016 at 9:56 PM, Keenan said:

 

Budda's estimate is spot on, even with every developer at the keys. There's a number of issues you are failing to factor in, including incompatibility with current systems. Even if we used a tool to literally port the code right on over, there's likely to be a number of areas which will need rewrites just to get things working. Even if we get a working client done in six months, we will have done nothing for the people who have been paying that entire time and have an unstable and likely bug-prone client to show for it. Consider the history of Wurm and tell me if that will go over well?

 

That estimate doesn't take into account what I mentioned before, which would be the impact on Saroman. If we stopped everything to work on a new client, customers would expect dramatic improvements for putting up with paying in and getting nothing for that amount of time. So we would need quite a number of new art assets that take advantage of the functionalities the new engine gives. We'd also likely cut off some of our customers with older machines as a result.

 

 

On 3/7/2016 at 9:04 PM, Budda said:

 

We've talked about this many times between all the devs over the years, and every time it is brought up, the general consensus for a decent estimate would be 2 years.

 

There are only 3 full-time devs on this project, and the flakiness of us volunteers can't be relied upon to shorten that timeframe - of course we would be eager to help and do what we can, but with us being volunteers, real life can easily get in the way. 

When you add in that the base game will still need updates and fixes in that time, you could maybe get away with 2 of the devs working full time on a new-engine client - rewriting everything and making it all work with the server software with that few people is where the estimate comes from.

 

The 6 month estimate a couple of pages back would be accurate with a few more full-time devs, and an inexperienced project manager giving that estimate. If you've ever worked with software development, you tend to know that any first estimate should be doubled or tripled to get the real estimate - just due to lack of knowledge, and the million different problems that arise during large projects.

 

TL;DR: Conservative bets are on at least 1.5-2 years for a move to a bigger/better engine.

 

On 3/7/2016 at 8:30 PM, Warlander said:

 

DeedPlanner 2 currently have 1,2 mb of source code alone and 119 classes. I once started making DeedPlanner for Unity, but abandoned the project after few weeks and realizing that finishing it would take at least 6 more months at the same pace with which I wrote rest of the program. Now take Wurm which is much older and more complex project and imagine how much would it take to convert just client to Unity... 1 year of non-stop development and stopping all other projects is absolute minimum which comes to my mind. Counting all complications, testing etc. this number would probably get closer to 2 years.

@Arkonick

 

30 minutes ago, Arkonick said:

switching code from one language to another don't take years or even months where do you'll get this info? We have language converters for years now only thing you end up is changing some code syntax from the conversion.

 

So I exagerated a bit, but when a developer says something will take x amount of time, it is safe to just double that for an accurate estimate. 

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This topic keeps popping up from time to time, I guess because some people are convinced that "newer" is always better than "older," regardless of the actual impact.   Whether it's "possible" or not, or how quickly or slowly it could be done, is absolutely irrelevant to me.  Changing the game engine would completely change the "feel" of Wurm.  For some people that would be ok.  For me it would not.  I love the "feel" of Wurm and have no desire to see it changed.  In fact it's more than just having no desire to see it changed, it's more like I'm vehemently opposed to seeing it changed.

 

I remember when some bright wit decided that UO should "get modern" and change to a 3D engine back around 2000ish.  Thank all the gods that they made it an optional, additional, engine rather than changing it.  End result was it sucked, big time, and hardly anyone used it.  To the best of my knowledge it went the way of the dodo bird (won't swear to what happened to the 3d, never bothered to find out), while UO with it's "old" feel is still alive and kicking to this day with it's niche playerbase.

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55 minutes ago, Arkonick said:

switching code from one language to another don't take years or even months where do you'll get this info? We have language converters for years now only thing you end up is changing some code syntax from the conversion.

Apparently the Wurm developers don't know that switching over is so easy that even you can figure it out?  I could be wrong, but it seems that you're making assumptions.

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5 hours ago, Mickaell said:

Think about it, all the limitations of java would be lifted, you could have real physics, actual jumping, things could have weight and collisions, and combat would not be dull anymore.

These arent limitation of java. 

5 hours ago, Mickaell said:

Adapting it shouldn't be that difficult? right? I mean it's java code, no pointers or anything it can be translated to C++? well im not a programmer i wouldn't know, but still, the idea excites me, what do you think?

as stated many times by many devs, It would be rewriting the game from the ground up and having to customise the engine so much you wind up in the exact same place you started, a custom engine, you'd have the same graphics, same mechanics, same everything.

 

unreal engine isnt a buzzword for pretty, and quite often games built within unity or unreal engine are pretty to look at, but need a lot of customising in order to have any in depth play. 

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5 hours ago, Mickaell said:

i don't think 30 people online at most times on the only PVP server is what you might call "survival".

Player versus Enviroment...


I am with retro, UE and specially unity is bloatware

Edited by tamat

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So, in summary:

 

We're stuck with java

 

Who knew?

 

Well, most of us actually :)

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2 hours ago, Arkonick said:

switching code from one language to another don't take years or even months where do you'll get this info? We have language converters for years now only thing you end up is changing some code syntax from the conversion.

New engines like unreal is bad for wurm cause of the way the company wants x amount of your profit. Unity how ever is a better engine cause they don't ask for all that and is more indy friendly than unreal. Unity can do every thing unreal can do and if you ever used both engines to experiment with you would know this.

 

Wurm would benefit if it went to unity and it wouldn't take years to do only a few weeks to convert and get it up and running again and no you really wouldn't have to restart the servers over either. Not to mention unity uses c# which is the next object program language. A ton of developers in triple A titles have been switching out of C++ and to C#. C# is just like java and the syntax is similar so wouldn't be a huge adjustment for a team of java developers to switch too. Unity would be the choice to go.

 

Converting code between some programming languages is possible indeed if they are based on the same platform (for example, C# and VB.NET both working on .NET platform or Java and Scala both working on Java platform), but between development platforms and frameworks is in most or all cases impossible - this includes switch from current Java-based engine to Unity or Unreal Engine. Such conversion can be compared to trying to make a plane using only parts from disassembled car - both are vehicles and take people from A to B, but work in too different way to make it possible. In addition, learning new development platform/framework takes much more time for experienced developer than learning a new language.

 

I need to add one thing - I'm not sure if many posters in this thread know this, but MMO's can (and often are) using different technologies and/or programming languages for client and server. In case of Wurm through switching technologies of either a client or server is task for years of work.

 

In most cases where client is using engine like Unity or Unreal Engine, server uses C++ or Java as engines bring too much overhead for a large server and their scopes are very different.

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while you dream of better engine someone is playing dwarf fortress :lol:

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If it ain't broke, the saying goes. If you think it is, well, it's just not your cup of tea. The milk was spilt years ago on the Java table, with the tears long since dried up. Now with the current Development team and their focus many long desired additions have been made to it within the last several years. The sandbox creative aspects have always been the main focus and even more so these days. For more action based or pvp activities other games have more to offer and always will, as evidenced by Wurm's development.

 

All is well with Wurm's Java jive. Heck, a whole modified and modable version of it was released not too long ago on Steam named Wurm Unlimited. You can see nothing was changed there either with the Java game engine to another one as you suggest. Not really worth the time and effort to do so while keeping the game philosophy intact, which in turn is what makes it appealing to a smaller audience. The game holds a much more subtle beauty revealed *for their eyes only*, it would seem. #12: "Bond, James Bond".

 

=Ayes=

 

 

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