Expanding End-Game

[Roccandil 959]

On 7/12/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sindusk said:

No new models/assets. New creatures, weapons, armor, and items are difficult to implement and would take a lot of time and effort to produce.

 

That sounds like something worth improving on the back-end.

 

On 7/12/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sindusk said:

A new map/server can be used. Opening a new map specifically for the new content would be fine. If it's related to the geography of the map, it will work.

 

I still think a Jackal map, with Rift mobs running wild (and maybe even enemy "starter" towns, if the GMs wanted to design them as a challenge to players to attack), could be interesting. Lots of volcanoes and weird, blade-like rock elevations and spires and rift resources growing everywhere (and not decaying). Very little dirt/grass/trees (if any): just sand/rock/tar/lava/clay/etc. Maybe no normal animals: just Rift mobs (no easy LT, and the Rift mobs would have killed them all anyhow). No mounts at all!

 

Have special rewards for archaeology/foraging/botanizing/hunting/draining Rift deeds (maybe even design a history/backstory of Jackal that players could discover), maybe have some uniques (red and black dragons? fits the terrain...) with special rewards. Maybe drop moonmetal lumps from mining like gems, but have existing caves populated by rift mobs. Rift mobs still drop normal rift loot.

 

No deed-building, no guard towers, no altars, but maybe a constant favor-regen boost. Normal buildings are allowed, but maybe crunchable by certain rift mobs.

 

Caveat: I'd want to access this from -Epic-.  So, do a PvE-only Jackal server for Freedom, and a PvP Jackal server for Epic (remember, no mounts! the rift mobs ate them...). And have shoulder pads actually mean something here, even in PvP.

 

Oh, and call it "Wurm Strikes Back, Revenge of the Rifted", or something.

[Roccandil 959]

Something else important:

 

- You can't take anything with you from Epic/Freedom to Jackal. You have to survive on your skills (although perhaps your god may provide you a little something to help, but since their influence is lower on Jackal, it won't be much). You can, however, always take loot from Jackal back. (Do I keep good stuff on Jackal, in hopes of getting more? Or do I take it home and hedge my bets?)

 

More details:

 

- Any skills you gain on Jackal you keep.

- I'm thinking no grass/moss/reed/kelp/trees/etc. at all, and no spells to add grass or mycellium. The only wood you can get is from rift plants (the idea of needing to cut down a rift plant for the -logs- seems cool).

- If any trees were added, I'd say they should always grow up to be shriveled (skipping mature on), but no fruit trees, and thorns should dominate.

- Ash randomly scattered on the landscape could be interesting.

 

Might be interesting to loosen some of the terraforming/climbing restrictions, and explain that gravity on Jackal is less than on Wurm...

 

Oh, and no mailboxes/turrets on Jackal: the animal spirits fled.

 

By the way, since starter gear would be difficult to get on Jackal, I could see an economy springing up there to sell even crude tools to new arrivals.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Roccandil

[golkar 7]

A very simple system to implement and which would keep busy everybody 'forever' and make living in Wurm world meaningful could be as follows:

 

- Reputation system with the King.

- Allow every profession/crafter to carry all his best stuff to the King's shops in the capital in exchange for rep points (even better if no wagoneers allowed). For example: farmers could get rid of all the surplus crops, at the same time feeling they are doing sth meaningful.

- According to Reputation level, you get a title related to the king (with some perks maybe) and/or, even better, a special item/station/whatever.. No need to be too flashy. For example, a small working station for that profession that would be getting better according to level.

 

It does not look too difficult to put in place.

[Finnn 3,301]

@Sinduskthere are two threads in forums.. what people like about the game, and what made them hate the game, both equally golden and probably full of inspirations, you can see what players do and don't like, a LOT should be possible to learn there.

 

If you want a titan job.. fix the economy, well.. *try*, point system with kingdom/deity contribution system could be a thing to get rid of things if they are well valued for their type, rarity, value, etc.. but... than what to do with the points.. as they are to be farmed and soon enough turn into next currency or rewards to trade.

If you want a doable job.. bring mailbox and trader/merchant overhaul to the game, mailbox history, bank ledger.(yeah sounds math..-y.. and boring)

 

Additionally.. all 'fun' pride screens from farming, fishing, all unsuccessful inspirations... could by tiny chance give players some new essence/fragment..

Based on fragment's name, type, etc.... and by collecting the needed amount, combining them and crafting a key /or/ whatever unique item spawner for a portal or rift-like event, with similar rules.. to start it(rift spawn requirements, far from deeds, etc..)

Event could be theme based, depending on item's name/type and spawning specific x amount of this or that type of mobs, spawning waves of them and progressing the difficulty, based on the player amount around. (Less players, huge multiplier to creature stats making it from impossible to REALLY-not fun to do in small groups. Why? Didn't people complain for nonexistent community events and wanting to have more fighting fun together?.. There.. a reason to group up!)

Player rank(some formula evaluating account's stats, skills, players stats and weapon), end the alt stalkers staring sheepishly from corners and clawing rewards, give actual people, actually being there and doing something... a reward for it.

Based on player's evaluation, spawn mobs with appropriate difficulty to offer a nice challenge, wave clear and kill progression or dps done overall could be all accounted for next spawned wave &/or rewards.

[Harriman 5]

On problem is on how you view "end game".

 

One of the great things about worm is your ability to change the world around you.   Dig out that mountain.  Create that city. Create that orchard of fruit trees.  Build  that 16 story mansion.

 

Create that heard of animals. 

 

 

There is so much to do other than creating items and skills 

[Hailene 362]

I think adding some items that require multiple (2? 3? 4?) skills to do it. So you might be able to build a siege weapon that requires high level blacksmithing, ropemaking, and carpentry to use. A single high skilled toon would be needed. It mixes up just  being able to imp the same old items to X to X+1.

Furthermore, this could be used to give some additional uses for lesser skills.

[Thalius 246]

13 hours ago, Ayes said:

This is a nice idea too. We have had "Rares" for some years now but they have become almost commonplace, so some "moments of inspiration" that would add a new craftable item recipe bound to that individual character only would make the item very special. In a way this was already done with some new cooking recipes named to the individual creator but then anyone could create them afterwards which removed their special exclusivity of creation. Better that this be retained by that individual who could then offer it to other players.

 

Really like this general idea, if I may say so.  A mechanic that allows some players to learn skills that allow them and them alone to craft certain items would be fantastic.  Certain items would be valuable because they actually are rare (uncommon) in the game.  I'd hate to see these item recipes/crafting skills just come to a player randomly in a moment of inspiration though.  For something like this to be truly valuable and the obtaining of them to have real game play significance, the chance to be inspired and receive the ability to craft any item of this nature should be tied to in game experience/play time.  Suggestion would be to tie the chance of learning of such things to lore found in archeology, or the completion of missions, or special tomes, etc.  Discovering and learning lore in the game would unlock and increase the chance that you may be "inspired" to learn the crafting of something new.

 

30 minutes ago, Hailene said:

I think adding some items that require multiple (2? 3? 4?) skills to do it. So you might be able to build a siege weapon that requires high level blacksmithing, ropemaking, and carpentry to use. A single high skilled toon would be needed. It mixes up just  being able to imp the same old items to X to X+1.

Furthermore, this could be used to give some additional uses for lesser skills.

Really like this idea as well.

 

 

~TH~

Edited November 15, 2018 by Thalius

[nicedreams 1,035]

Instead of end-game since this is a sandbox and no real "end game" why not things that keep people active together like the "mini games" I've been suggesting.  I've had people all the time joking that too bad we don't have chess, checkers, backgammon or something to keep us occupied "together".  There is too much solo stuff like the grind is mostly a solo activity unless making towers and such with others.

 

Helped make an Oblisk last night with Xan alliance and all we did was stare at each other for few hours.  Was pretty boring, except just thinking about the end result then just fell asleep in chair.  Too bad not something we can do like "mini games" while standing around clicking a single button to keep attention span going.

 

The only way to stay sane in this game is either have an alt so you are doing 2 things at once or browse the internet or use another computer to play a 2nd slow game while clicking "create" button.  Would like to keep attention inside of game.

 

People can plan trips to "Game Houses" that people can create and tournaments with others.  Add more fun to impalongs too.  I'd travel to some random deeds if some ladder tournaments was going on for board games and such.  Something to keep active with instead of impalongs which get boring too.  The hosts try their best but a fishing tournament is just boring.  Still clicking a single button while I'm off browsing the web.

 

I just see mini games creating a whole new area that people would expand on.  That's why I'm adding this to "end game" thread.  It's something else to do when you've done everything else in Wurm.

 

This was a huge deal in Ultima Online game.  Most everyone I knew kept a chess board in their inventory.  I remember I made a game area and had my own tournaments.  Was like in 2001 though.

Edited November 15, 2018 by nicedreams

[Alkhadias 548]

I can already tell, that I'm at the end of my Wurm's career. Best moments in game I already had, most likely already experienced. I've learnt what I wanted, almost done everything that I wanted. Met my best ingame friends long time ago, then see almost all of them gone. 

In my opinion thing, that's lacking in game mostly is... the feeling of accomplishment, full satisfy, something to differ the beginning of your journey, continuation, growing up in skills, society... At the very end I sometimes feel like I'd be still a peasant doing everything on my own, with my bare hands. 

What I mean. You start as no one, with no name, with no skills, with no experience. What you're doing? You working hardly on all and each one of it. You're working, meeting people, opening shop, earning money, getting your name higher and higher. At some point you become a lord of your own lands most probably of famous and known villager/ wurmian, you're attending slaying, kill dragons, battling Rifts as a high skilled warrior... and then you're getting back to your castle/ town and start working on nails for to make a barrel or you're going to chop your tomato to make something to food. It's... just not rewarding, not feeling like you've done anything important to this worls, society- when you're getting back home you still might feel like you're no named peasant.

As being faaaar, faaaar away in any kind of progress after all these years, one would expect more of... managing stuff. I know it doesn't meet Wurm's needs, mechanics or community needs at all... Just... you know what I mean. 

Of course i still can manage everything with people. Buy everything, manage delivery times, money, costs, hire workers to do everything i need for me, even sandwiches every morning. But this is also not the case, as usually people who's willing to take such jobs, doesn't have skills like I'd require of them. Also people like to go away, and then I'm starving....

The only thing of a management that i can think of right now, is adding more trading options, perhaps linked with your ingame skills. Well, we already got wagoners, so that would be very similar, like an extension of wagoners options. 
For example:
Trade Managment Tab
Splited for buyer/ seller options.

As a buyer I can choose something of many bulk materials. Let's say I need 1.5k bricks and 2k of mortar. I'm checking bricks and mortar boxes and selecting amount- 1.5k and 2k. To submit order i need to deposit money in the box. Once i want my money back, order disappears from global list. 
As a seller I can browse global orders list. I have 1.5k bricks and 2k mortar, alright. I'm clicking order and then i have 1 hour to put this order into Trading wagoner crates and send away, and collect money. If for example i have only 500 bricks and mortar I could send it, and get % of money offered by seller the same way. Just the way of global trading and more of managing your finances, projects. Of course, if as a seller I would check out such an order, I'd have to select amount I'm willing to fill up and then I'd have an hour or so to put it into wagoner crates. For this hour order on global list would chenge it's status to pending (amount), and buyer wouldn't be able to get back his money and canceling order while it's already pending. 

Just a thought, nothing more. But lack of final managment, more strategic actions then just... shoveling etc. is something that really feels not right to me, at the end. 

[Ecrir 887]

I think overall for players who pretty much have anything the best thing to add is more depth. The cooking overhaul pretty much had that approach, take an existing feature and add a whole lot of depth to it. Multi story buildings (and the extra materials, underground buildings) and bridges are other such examples. Fishing is getting that treatment as well by the sound of it. I think more of that would be great.

 

Giving specific examples of how things could be improved does feel hard, so i'll focus on things which I feel could use some more depth, and try to add some ideas in:

 

Metallurgy also feels like an area that could be expanded, as does Alchemy. Right now both skills come down to adding two items together. No tools are really used in the process. From what I've heard, Kingdom Come Deliverance did a very nice job on the alchemy department. It really engages you in the process. I think that's an example of the kind of gameplay Wurm could use to keep experienced players engaged.

 

- Farming overall feels a bit flat, at least the fields part of it. You just sow some fields, optionally rake em every now and then, and then harvest them. Overall most crops mature rather quickly and farming feels quite passive with little variety. But I'm honestly not sure how to improve upon this. Perhaps if the seasons in game were longer then seasonal crops could work well, adding some variety to what you can plan when. Then you could also have plants which could last for one or more seasons, allowing you to harvest them multiple times before they die. Perhaps farming mushrooms inside mines could also be an interesting addition.

 

After all these years I also feel like some of the crafting skills, smithing and carpentry for example, could use something more. Perhaps more tool variety and more customization in what you can make. Or generally something more engaging along the same line as what I mentioned for Alchemy.

 

 

[Angelklaine 4,266]

Guys, keep in mind Sindusk posted this back in July 2017, long before he was a WO Dev and it was mainly geared towards him wanting to create WU mods. I dont think this was intended for future WO development. This thread was necro'd.

[nicedreams 1,035]

LOL.  Deception at it's finest.

[Sindusk 2,448]

Well... isn't this thread an interesting one.

 

On 11/15/2018 at 8:27 PM, Angelklaine said:

Guys, keep in mind Sindusk posted this back in July 2017, long before he was a WO Dev and it was mainly geared towards him wanting to create WU mods. I dont think this was intended for future WO development. This thread was necro'd.

 

Just noticed this thread being necro'd today actually. It's actually one of my favorite old posts because it lead to a lot of mods I created in WU that actually did help expand the end-game because of the discussion that happened here. It lead to my implementation of Chaos & Enchanter crystals, a change in the design philosphy of my Spectral Drakes and Reaper mobs, and the addition of a unique scarce resource (Blue Wyvern). Also, the most recent addition that I feel really nailed the end-game philosophy: Leaderboards. While this is no longer truly a relevant topic for the current development of Wurm Online - there is a roadmap that will keep the team busy for ~6 months to a year - there's no harm in discussing what comes after before those decisions are made. Perhaps this is a topic that we'll want to touch on after the current projects. I'm always down for a good discussion, so let's just dive right into it!

 

On 11/13/2018 at 8:44 PM, Trenix said:

Is this still up for discussion?

 

As much as I loved this game and would love to continue playing it, the biggest issue is it's endgame. Eventually once you have everything, there is nothing to do. For that reason, I can't play Wurm Online or Wurm Unlimited because of it's lack of purpose. The most fun I had in the game was playing entirely by myself, which kind of goes against how the game is supposed to be played. Yet after the repetition and reward, you being to feel like everything you do is meaningless. The fun quickly fades. PvP is a hot topic for endgame, because it allows you to challenge others through all your efforts. Unfortunately the combat in Wurm is so ancient that not even hardcore PvP players would bother with it.

 

Aside from that you have PvE. In order to make that fun you need a never ending goal. Unfortunately, there is no goal you can set in Wurm where eventually that you can't reach or care about after reaching it. I mean all you need to do is join an already built settlement and you're done basically. It's no wonder that most of the players are veterans that haven't quit ever since. I mean they built up Wurm and had a blast doing it from the very beginning. However what about a newcomer? They have their goals finished before they even started by joining these vets. If they decided to do everything on their own, they're better off playing Wurm Unlimited. Otherwise they'll end up paying to barely keep up with everyone else and will always get taken advantage of for every single trade.

 

Most games offer quests that never end to keep players entertained in a never ending cycle. I'm not a fan of that, but it's something. Another thing is trying to obtain power. There is no power in this game. You can't own or fight for territories and the economy in the game is non-existent or even workable. I recently returned to this game and I'm much older now than before. Something that I'm interesting in nowadays is economics. When I came back, I found out that there is no main cities with local auction houses. Most trade is done through the mail, where it just magically appears in people's boxes. You also have to speak to people in order to trade. It's just so disorganized. And what exactly drains resources out of the game to stop resources from inflating?

 

I highly suggest you focus on the economy aspect of the game if anything and hopefully combat. We need better ways to trade without the need of communication. I recommend looking at games like Albion Online, a similar game with heavy grind but actually has everything else I'm talking about to encourage players to keep playing. Hope some of this helps. Also the ability to sleep on a private server on wurm unlimited to speed up the process of growth for plants and such is another thing to look at. If all that is too much, I think the game has ran it's course. It's old, graphics are highly outdated, and java isn't ideal for gaming. Maybe Wurm Online 2.0?

 

There's a lot here, and it's all really true. PvP is kind of considered the "end-game" because man is the most dangerous game. The idea behind this whole thread was to discuss ideas in order to change that and provide a more PvE-focused endgame for those who desire it. You can look all over in other games to see how they deal with this issue, but many of them don't apply to Wurm since it's a very different style of game from most MMO's. Since Wurm is very much a sandbox where players need to create their own goals, it goes against the philosophy of the game to throw and NPC down and say "Okay, go do this now. You have to in order to go further." That just doesn't sit well in Wurm. Instead, you need to get something else where the player has the option to do something that would help them, but still make it repeatable. Right now, there's not a whole lot of that in the game. You can consider increasing skill or improving an item/cast as a form of that, where you repeat the action until you achieve the goal you were looking for.

 

Now on the topic of quests that never end, there's a current trend going of infinite scaling difficulty being one of the best solutions. As you go further, things get harder, but the rewards increase. This type of implementation could apply to Wurm in some way. For example, a dungeon of sorts which creates waves of creatures of increasing difficulty and number until you inevitably die due to the difficulty. This is a rather poor example, as it would need to be designed specifically to make it more rewarding than punishing (skill loss would likely turn players away from this for example). However, what if that type of scenario could be translated to improving an item? What if there was some way that you could make a challenge to improve an item, perhaps in the form of a puzzle/mini-game, that would become more and more difficult until you lost? In return, you would gain an increase to the item that would gain some benefit for your effort.

 

I actually had a prototype of a new mod I was working on that would take an approach in this manner, giving a mark on items that would increase their "base" quality. Lets say that someone had increased their base quality of their forge by 30QL. It was then improved by a 90 skill mason. They could see something like the following, where the new "maximum" quality would be 130QL (30 base + the original 100 cap). The forge itself would improve like it was whatever QL shown - 30 (so 113 would actually be improved like an 83 item).

 

On 11/13/2018 at 9:53 PM, Mataleao said:

Cheers for looking into this Sindusk.

 

The player base tends to get re-energized and motivated by significant updates. For example, the cooking update. Even the dyeing update that brought us crazy coloured plate armours and ships got people excited for a bit. These be improvements and expansions of the current Wurm system and there be tons of such suggestions in this here forum.

 

Off the top of my head, I can say:

- combat system overhaul: make Wurm combat non-idle and involving, and that's an instant excitement multiplier. Nobody's going to treat combat as time out to fix a cuppa or take an unhurried leisurely visit to the loo.

- AH (which is currently broken, as we all know).

- similar to the amazing cooking update, an introduction of alchemy would get people into a delightful frenzy. Potions, salves and the likes fit perfectly into the Wurm world.

- cosmetics: allowing players to change and customise their characters' looks. Expanding on this would be the addition of more clothing and armour items. This requires new assets to be created. However, variety is indeed the spice of life. Everyone wants to express their uniqueness.

 

 

As it should be. That is the nature of Wurm. There are tons of games out there that are #instabuild #instagratification. Vynora forbids that Wurm joins that horde. Everything takes effort and time, and that makes us appreciate things. We see a beautiful, majestic deed, or a powerfully enchanted QL90 rare sword, and we know the crazy amount of effort that goes into them.

 

As I always say, I have three focuses. Spells/Religion, Combat, and PvP. Adjustments to the combat system are something I'd really like to get into, but it'll be after the other two topics are touched on. The priest rework covers the first aspect, whereas my next work will involve PvP. It's far too early to say anything about what the combat adjustments might look like, so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

On 11/13/2018 at 11:01 PM, madnezz said:

Without the addition of new interesting mid level non-unique creatures (rift boss or slightly harder) the end game in Wurm Online is playing on a PvP server and trying your wits at outsmarting or out-surviving other legitimate players, gms, devs, and of course the 'win at all cost' players that will use any means available, legal or not.  

 

I've added this on my WU server and it has been met with positive reception. Designing something around a small hunting party instead of the discrepancy between "I can kill this solo" and "I need 10 people to kill this" would be a really nice void to fill.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 5:31 AM, kochinac said:

It's not end game per se, more improving something that already exists and giving it better flare.

My thoughts are.

Wurm has too much skills of little or no use, replace them with new more interesting skills like glassmaking, weaving like hats, baskets, furniture, carpets, other stuff from straw/thatch/grass whatever. Do we seriously need 6 shield skills for the same thing?

Overhaul of existing skills to make them more usefull and fun. Alchemy in a way more similar to cooking so we can discover potions, set up our own alchemy labs with glass equipment. Improve butchering, loot is so same and boring. Bigger animals more meat, harder animals rarest ingredients for alchemy. Looking forward to see what fishing will bring. Priest overhaul seems to improve a lot of stuff but its not real overhaul in my eyes, enchanters are still slot machines, only one skill for all type of spells and distribution of spells by gods is not good imo would prefer scenario with several skills for magic where people choose which spells they want to grind for. Gaining faith, we need better ways for it sermoning for 100 faith is stupid and unresonable painfull. It creates timed chores of this game which not everyone can follow, I would rather not spend my whole several weeks at impalongs staring at screen, chating, and casting from time to time, I wanna play a game. Fighting is boring as hell and not engaging and to dependant on numbers. System of fighting that relies on physics more is I suppose lightyears away unfortunately (indie project Valheim or something like that, has really interesting fighting system)

For crafting everyone can make everything, no hard earned uniqueness, how about some really rare crafting recepie that would make few crafters famous as they are the only ones that can make some item. Or maybe if not dropable recepie moment of inspiration for crafters when they can think a way of improving some tool or designing new. Like carpetners having inspiration and innovation designs press over the barrel that is used on ground and doesn't need emptying so often.

As for assets, maka a list what you need somewhere, upload things that needs works done, specify style and other aspects people need to do so they work fit Wurm, there are a lot of talented people that maybe don't even play game but want to volunteer and make stuff for the game. Make a competition for ingame rewards for people that would make new models and textures for the game.

I probably could have made several suggestion posts out of this but got inspiration to throw some rough ideas.

 

Adjusting skills with little usage is something I'm also very interested in. Stealing and Tracking are two skills I really have my eyes on since they're almost never used. Alchemy is also a really neat topic that I'd be interested in diving into sometime later down the line as well. It's natural integration with the priest and spell system has me curious about what type of interesting interactions we could come up with. There's also the "throw" option for a target in combat, which is rarely used except to cheese. Making throwing alchemy potions to weaken enemies or strengthen allies could be an interesting avenue to explore. Rares also have a lot of hidden design potential. Due to their scarcity, there's a possibility of making them more versatile.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 8:53 AM, Ayes said:

I suggest people read those "limitations" again. This rules out a lot of things but...

 

Actually there is a way to easily "instance content" by creating a new server for it. In particular I am thinking in terms of a "Hunting Server" as has once again been brought to the forefront in the S&I section of the forums. There new mobs can be introduced that are more difficult to kill in various ways and also new item drops could be introduced on them as well with perhaps some enhanced effects on them.

 

This is why an isolated server that contains these types of mobs is a good idea as well; because not everyone enjoys the combat aspect of game play. So this would keep these more "challenging" mobs that the elite fighters are so fond of away from the normal servers. Think of this Hunting Server as an equivalent in terms of rewards (drops) as the HOTA is on the Chaos server, only centered upon PVE combat with aggressive mobs.

 

This is a nice idea too. We have had "Rares" for some years now but they have become almost commonplace, so some "moments of inspiration" that would add a new craftable item recipe bound to that individual character only would make the item very special. In a way this was already done with some new cooking recipes named to the individual creator but then anyone could create them afterwards which removed their special exclusivity of creation. Better that this be retained by that individual who could then offer it to other players.

 

=Ayes=

 

I've always had discussions about a hunting server for my WU servers. Since I added much more difficult mobs than trolls that roam the land, it's been a topic of conversation more than once. I have concerns that it would fail in execution. While the idea is sound, you could end up in a scenario where either everyone moves there to keep it challenging, or players avoid it completely because it takes too long to access. I'm unsure if there's a proper middle ground where neither of those problems exist. My attempt at it was making sure that difficult creatures spawned in biomes (tundra, snow, steppe, etc). That worked out to a decent degree, but it required a map specifically tailored around that fact.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 11:49 AM, Roccandil said:

 

That sounds like something worth improving on the back-end.

 

 

I still think a Jackal map, with Rift mobs running wild (and maybe even enemy "starter" towns, if the GMs wanted to design them as a challenge to players to attack), could be interesting. Lots of volcanoes and weird, blade-like rock elevations and spires and rift resources growing everywhere (and not decaying). Very little dirt/grass/trees (if any): just sand/rock/tar/lava/clay/etc. Maybe no normal animals: just Rift mobs (no easy LT, and the Rift mobs would have killed them all anyhow). No mounts at all!

 

Have special rewards for archaeology/foraging/botanizing/hunting/draining Rift deeds (maybe even design a history/backstory of Jackal that players could discover), maybe have some uniques (red and black dragons? fits the terrain...) with special rewards. Maybe drop moonmetal lumps from mining like gems, but have existing caves populated by rift mobs. Rift mobs still drop normal rift loot.

 

No deed-building, no guard towers, no altars, but maybe a constant favor-regen boost. Normal buildings are allowed, but maybe crunchable by certain rift mobs.

 

Caveat: I'd want to access this from -Epic-.  So, do a PvE-only Jackal server for Freedom, and a PvP Jackal server for Epic (remember, no mounts! the rift mobs ate them...). And have shoulder pads actually mean something here, even in PvP.

 

Oh, and call it "Wurm Strikes Back, Revenge of the Rifted", or something.

 

A map like that would most likely be on epic if it happened, yeah. Also, the mention of enemy starter towns sparks an interesting idea to me.

 

When designing a game, you generally have two perspectives: the player and the developer. The player wants to achieve all their goals and become as strong as they can. The developer wants to limit their growth to a steady rate to keep them playing, meanwhile making sure they don't become omnipotent. In a way, this creates a back and forth for players and developers, where the developers will create something new, players will use it in an unintended way, the developers will fix it, the players will find another way to achieve the same goal. Rinse and repeat and you've basically got development in a nutshell.

 

One idea would be to make an NPC faction on a PvP server. Give them their own, large deed with well built walls and fortifications. Give them NPC players equipped with good weapons and armor that defend that deed. Allow them to roam and kill players and loot them. Their loot would then be distributed among the raiding parties they send out. These NPC's would be only as strong as the players allowed them to get (with a certain baseline, perhaps ~70-80QL plate/chain), as well as offering a consistent opponent even if the PvP kingdom balance shifts in one direction. Instead of solving player problems with additional players, we put a hostile NPC in place to shift the tide. I can most closely relate this type of option to end-game crisis in Stellaris, which is the public enemy of all players and gives not a single care whether or not you are the strongest or weakest empire in the galaxy. You're an enemy and you'll be under attack.

 

This is quite a big undertaking as a significant amount of AI work would need to be implemented to ensure that they were not easily cheesed in combat. However, back to the point of player vs developer, this would create a really interesting back and forth for development. Every time the players would learn a way to "cheese" the AI, the devs would be able to patch that option and force the players to find another way... until there were none left. You'd be left with an NPC faction that would pose a significant thread and add a new dimension to the macro gameplay on a PvP server. This was the approach I took with my titans in WU to moderate success. There were half a dozen kills using cheese mechanics (rotting touch, sacrificial knives, etc) before I finally managed to force the players to truly fight it head-on in actual combat.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 1:44 PM, golkar said:

A very simple system to implement and which would keep busy everybody 'forever' and make living in Wurm world meaningful could be as follows:

 

- Reputation system with the King.

- Allow every profession/crafter to carry all his best stuff to the King's shops in the capital in exchange for rep points (even better if no wagoneers allowed). For example: farmers could get rid of all the surplus crops, at the same time feeling they are doing sth meaningful.

- According to Reputation level, you get a title related to the king (with some perks maybe) and/or, even better, a special item/station/whatever.. No need to be too flashy. For example, a small working station for that profession that would be getting better according to level.

 

It does not look too difficult to put in place.

 

While this is easy to implement, the actual reward is where the hard part comes into play. What do you give a player that has it all right now?

 

On 11/14/2018 at 2:41 PM, Finnn said:

@Sinduskthere are two threads in forums.. what people like about the game, and what made them hate the game, both equally golden and probably full of inspirations, you can see what players do and don't like, a LOT should be possible to learn there.

 

If you want a titan job.. fix the economy, well.. *try*, point system with kingdom/deity contribution system could be a thing to get rid of things if they are well valued for their type, rarity, value, etc.. but... than what to do with the points.. as they are to be farmed and soon enough turn into next currency or rewards to trade.

If you want a doable job.. bring mailbox and trader/merchant overhaul to the game, mailbox history, bank ledger.(yeah sounds math..-y.. and boring)

 

Additionally.. all 'fun' pride screens from farming, fishing, all unsuccessful inspirations... could by tiny chance give players some new essence/fragment..

Based on fragment's name, type, etc.... and by collecting the needed amount, combining them and crafting a key /or/ whatever unique item spawner for a portal or rift-like event, with similar rules.. to start it(rift spawn requirements, far from deeds, etc..)

Event could be theme based, depending on item's name/type and spawning specific x amount of this or that type of mobs, spawning waves of them and progressing the difficulty, based on the player amount around. (Less players, huge multiplier to creature stats making it from impossible to REALLY-not fun to do in small groups. Why? Didn't people complain for nonexistent community events and wanting to have more fighting fun together?.. There.. a reason to group up!)

Player rank(some formula evaluating account's stats, skills, players stats and weapon), end the alt stalkers staring sheepishly from corners and clawing rewards, give actual people, actually being there and doing something... a reward for it.

Based on player's evaluation, spawn mobs with appropriate difficulty to offer a nice challenge, wave clear and kill progression or dps done overall could be all accounted for next spawned wave &/or rewards.

 

Economy is something I'm pretty familiar with. The Wyvern server had an issue early on before I had taken it over, where all the currency was drained out of the traders and nobody who joined the server could access any money. The solution put in place (not by me) was injecting hundreds of gold into traders so they wouldn't run out. Needless to say, this caused an issue where the economy was shattered and people could buy whatever they wanted at all times. After I took over as the owner of the server, I was challenged with trying to solve this problem. I tried money sinks (consumable items purchased with currency), increasing upkeep, adjusting value on items, and all sorts of other options. In the end, there wasn't really any way I could solve the underlying problem: players had stockpiled outrageous amounts of wealth. If I add something highly expensive, new players cannot access it for the reward and rich players don't bother because it's not worth it to them. If I add something inexpensive, the rich players buy hundreds of it while normal players scrape by. If I try to directly take money away from the wealthy through a currency reset or increasing money rewards in the game, they get upset (with good reason).

A bit of a rant there, I know, but the point is this: I'm not qualified to try and solve the economy problem. I could implement a system that would solve it, if such a thing existed. Actually thinking of the solution, though, I have no idea. There's a thread here on the forums discussing the economy problem in Wurm in-depth and from what I've read the opinions vary widely on ways to solve it, with holes being picked in every suggestion made.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 10:08 PM, Hailene said:

I think adding some items that require multiple (2? 3? 4?) skills to do it. So you might be able to build a siege weapon that requires high level blacksmithing, ropemaking, and carpentry to use. A single high skilled toon would be needed. It mixes up just  being able to imp the same old items to X to X+1.

Furthermore, this could be used to give some additional uses for lesser skills.

 

This creates a larger gap and void between established players and new players. Adding content to the game that is fully locked behind a large grind is generally going to be viewed poorly. For example, if we added a new weapon that was better than all the rest locked behind 99 weapon smithing, there's probably going to be some significant complaints.

 

On 11/15/2018 at 11:58 AM, nicedreams said:

Instead of end-game since this is a sandbox and no real "end game" why not things that keep people active together like the "mini games" I've been suggesting.  I've had people all the time joking that too bad we don't have chess, checkers, backgammon or something to keep us occupied "together".  There is too much solo stuff like the grind is mostly a solo activity unless making towers and such with others.

 

Helped make an Oblisk last night with Xan alliance and all we did was stare at each other for few hours.  Was pretty boring, except just thinking about the end result then just fell asleep in chair.  Too bad not something we can do like "mini games" while standing around clicking a single button to keep attention span going.

 

The only way to stay sane in this game is either have an alt so you are doing 2 things at once or browse the internet or use another computer to play a 2nd slow game while clicking "create" button.  Would like to keep attention inside of game.

 

People can plan trips to "Game Houses" that people can create and tournaments with others.  Add more fun to impalongs too.  I'd travel to some random deeds if some ladder tournaments was going on for board games and such.  Something to keep active with instead of impalongs which get boring too.  The hosts try their best but a fishing tournament is just boring.  Still clicking a single button while I'm off browsing the web.

 

I just see mini games creating a whole new area that people would expand on.  That's why I'm adding this to "end game" thread.  It's something else to do when you've done everything else in Wurm.

 

This was a huge deal in Ultima Online game.  Most everyone I knew kept a chess board in their inventory.  I remember I made a game area and had my own tournaments.  Was like in 2001 though.

 

There's a limitation of interactivity in the game right now. Most of the actions are done through context menus or keybinds. The UI doesn't really support interaction too far beyond that (for the moment). This is something that would have to wait for the UI overhaul before being tackled due to the input limitations of the game. Think of how you would interact to play chess in-game right now. What buttons would you use?

 

On 11/15/2018 at 1:46 PM, Alkhadias said:

I can already tell, that I'm at the end of my Wurm's career. Best moments in game I already had, most likely already experienced. I've learnt what I wanted, almost done everything that I wanted. Met my best ingame friends long time ago, then see almost all of them gone. 

In my opinion thing, that's lacking in game mostly is... the feeling of accomplishment, full satisfy, something to differ the beginning of your journey, continuation, growing up in skills, society... At the very end I sometimes feel like I'd be still a peasant doing everything on my own, with my bare hands. 

What I mean. You start as no one, with no name, with no skills, with no experience. What you're doing? You working hardly on all and each one of it. You're working, meeting people, opening shop, earning money, getting your name higher and higher. At some point you become a lord of your own lands most probably of famous and known villager/ wurmian, you're attending slaying, kill dragons, battling Rifts as a high skilled warrior... and then you're getting back to your castle/ town and start working on nails for to make a barrel or you're going to chop your tomato to make something to food. It's... just not rewarding, not feeling like you've done anything important to this worls, society- when you're getting back home you still might feel like you're no named peasant.

As being faaaar, faaaar away in any kind of progress after all these years, one would expect more of... managing stuff. I know it doesn't meet Wurm's needs, mechanics or community needs at all... Just... you know what I mean. 

Of course i still can manage everything with people. Buy everything, manage delivery times, money, costs, hire workers to do everything i need for me, even sandwiches every morning. But this is also not the case, as usually people who's willing to take such jobs, doesn't have skills like I'd require of them. Also people like to go away, and then I'm starving....

The only thing of a management that i can think of right now, is adding more trading options, perhaps linked with your ingame skills. Well, we already got wagoners, so that would be very similar, like an extension of wagoners options. 
For example:
Trade Managment Tab
Splited for buyer/ seller options.

As a buyer I can choose something of many bulk materials. Let's say I need 1.5k bricks and 2k of mortar. I'm checking bricks and mortar boxes and selecting amount- 1.5k and 2k. To submit order i need to deposit money in the box. Once i want my money back, order disappears from global list. 
As a seller I can browse global orders list. I have 1.5k bricks and 2k mortar, alright. I'm clicking order and then i have 1 hour to put this order into Trading wagoner crates and send away, and collect money. If for example i have only 500 bricks and mortar I could send it, and get % of money offered by seller the same way. Just the way of global trading and more of managing your finances, projects. Of course, if as a seller I would check out such an order, I'd have to select amount I'm willing to fill up and then I'd have an hour or so to put it into wagoner crates. For this hour order on global list would chenge it's status to pending (amount), and buyer wouldn't be able to get back his money and canceling order while it's already pending. 

Just a thought, nothing more. But lack of final managment, more strategic actions then just... shoveling etc. is something that really feels not right to me, at the end. 

 

I do understand that feeling where you're just going through the motions again, and most of the enjoyment comes from that first time around when you're truly working your way towards something. I feel that could possibly be replicated with the right system. Give people a goal to strive for in the overall. In a way, the valrei map is a form of this, where players can do in-game missions to have an effect on the "global" board. A system similar to that, but with goals that are far more attainable and unique, might be something interesting to tackle. This would create incentive for full villages to make a team effort to accomplish something on a macro scale for a reason beyond just doing it.

 

On 11/15/2018 at 2:15 PM, Ecrir said:

I think overall for players who pretty much have anything the best thing to add is more depth. The cooking overhaul pretty much had that approach, take an existing feature and add a whole lot of depth to it. Multi story buildings (and the extra materials, underground buildings) and bridges are other such examples. Fishing is getting that treatment as well by the sound of it. I think more of that would be great.

 

Giving specific examples of how things could be improved does feel hard, so i'll focus on things which I feel could use some more depth, and try to add some ideas in:

 

Metallurgy also feels like an area that could be expanded, as does Alchemy. Right now both skills come down to adding two items together. No tools are really used in the process. From what I've heard, Kingdom Come Deliverance did a very nice job on the alchemy department. It really engages you in the process. I think that's an example of the kind of gameplay Wurm could use to keep experienced players engaged.

 

- Farming overall feels a bit flat, at least the fields part of it. You just sow some fields, optionally rake em every now and then, and then harvest them. Overall most crops mature rather quickly and farming feels quite passive with little variety. But I'm honestly not sure how to improve upon this. Perhaps if the seasons in game were longer then seasonal crops could work well, adding some variety to what you can plan when. Then you could also have plants which could last for one or more seasons, allowing you to harvest them multiple times before they die. Perhaps farming mushrooms inside mines could also be an interesting addition.

 

After all these years I also feel like some of the crafting skills, smithing and carpentry for example, could use something more. Perhaps more tool variety and more customization in what you can make. Or generally something more engaging along the same line as what I mentioned for Alchemy.

 

 

 

I've been thinking about adding more depth to things, but I have a question to pose: How would you add depth to improving an item? Almost everything in the game uses improve/repair as the functions to make it better. How would you add depth and break that gameplay loop? This was something I was interested in doing to discourage macro gameplay on my private server. Most of the ideas had flaws except for a certain few, and I'd be interested to see if we can brainstorm something that truly hits the marks. Here's some restrictions:

• Must be an addition to improve/repair, cannot change it fundamentally. Some people (myself included) actually like to use Wurm as a game I can play while watching a TV show. When a new season comes out of a show I enjoy, logging into Wurm to improve some items while I watch it on my other monitor is something I really like. When I posed changes that would break this gameplay loop, it was met with negative reception.
• Cannot be a mild efficiency increase. What I mean is that it can't just be something to make it faster to improve. We want something that will actually affect the end result without just meaning we get from QL X to QL Y faster. This would just be met with people ignoring the system if it's too hard or becoming too fast by always doing it.
• Using outside resources is a bonus. One idea was using "reinforcements" or "augments" of some kind during the improve/repair process. These would be other items created through other skills (like jewelry smithing or something) that would give bonus effects to the item at the end. This gives value to other skills while also allowing players to target what type of augmentation they want their item to undergo while working on it.

[nicedreams 1,035]

Thanks Sindusk.  Any addition is  probably end-game for most of us anyways since keeps us busy with new things.  Thanks for all your contributions and single replies to each response.  You always on point man.

[kochinac 1,395]

Sindusk that about throwing alchemy potions to enemies is great idea. Didn't think of that at all I hope it will be implemented. Damn imagine throwing napalm coctels that do aoe dmg, or something sticky that slow enemies for some period of time lot of possibilities

[Demonix 79]

4 hours ago, Sindusk said:

I've been thinking about adding more depth to things, but I have a question to pose: How would you add depth to improving an item? Almost everything in the game uses improve/repair as the functions to make it better. How would you add depth and break that gameplay loop? This was something I was interested in doing to discourage macro gameplay on my private server. Most of the ideas had flaws except for a certain few, and I'd be interested to see if we can brainstorm something that truly hits the marks. Here's some restrictions:

• Must be an addition to improve/repair, cannot change it fundamentally. Some people (myself included) actually like to use Wurm as a game I can play while watching a TV show. When a new season comes out of a show I enjoy, logging into Wurm to improve some items while I watch it on my other monitor is something I really like. When I posed changes that would break this gameplay loop, it was met with negative reception.
• Cannot be a mild efficiency increase. What I mean is that it can't just be something to make it faster to improve. We want something that will actually affect the end result without just meaning we get from QL X to QL Y faster. This would just be met with people ignoring the system if it's too hard or becoming too fast by always doing it.
• Using outside resources is a bonus. One idea was using "reinforcements" or "augments" of some kind during the improve/repair process. These would be other items created through other skills (like jewelry smithing or something) that would give bonus effects to the item at the end. This gives value to other skills while also allowing players to target what type of augmentation they want their item to undergo while working on it.

-----

 

I know this was a necro, but I wanted to address your point about additions to improve/repair.  What about using an upgrade system to enhance or expand the functionality of mundane items?  Lets take ovens/forges for example - over time, people have asked for various things to improve their functionality.  If we could upgrade them using skill and uncommon resources it could be a nice side-dive compared to the imp/repair loop.

 

• increase fuel efficiency/burn time
• fuel meter (get an exact visual reading of how much time you have left before you need to refuel!)
• expanded capacity (lets say three ranks of this and each rank adds another shelf/compartment that can hold X volume. )
• and other specialized modules such as ore hoppers (can hold a single small or large crate and auto-feed ore), ingot molds (holds a single small or large crate, removes lumps from forge/smelter ), juice sluice (allows you to attach a sluice to a fruit press in which you can 'put' a single small barrel to catch juice created that goes over the capacity of the press) and Multi-condenser (allows a still to distill two different liquors at the same time at the cost of reduced capacity)

To expand on this, lets say each upgrade has a certain 'cost' other than the materials and skills needed to create it...lets say points.  Once you upgrade an item with a certain number of points, the item is no longer what it was and instead becomes a new item in the world with a new name (Baker's oven, double still, fire forge etc.)  Once the item 'evolves' it's quality goes back to, say, 40% of its original value and can be reimped if desired.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Demonix
quote fix

[Roccandil 959]

4 hours ago, Sindusk said:

Must be an addition to improve/repair, cannot change it fundamentally. Some people (myself included) actually like to use Wurm as a game I can play while watching a TV show.

 

Damage during imping drives me crazy, and when I quit Wurm, that will be one of the primary reasons.

 

If it were my game, item damage during imping would be -gone-, and I'd adjust imp sizes a bit smaller to compensate. That alone would make me happy with imping.

 

To be honest, though, I'd also revamp imping to be like imping buildings: the game takes into account your skill, the QL of the resource/tool, and gives you an imp size accordingly. If your skill and the QL are too low, the game simply won't imp, and will even tell you "you need skill level X or item QL Y to imp further".

 

That would not only be less frustrating, but instead of the current mushiness (how is higher skill actually helping me?), it would also provide concrete goals to shoot for: "I really need to get my skill to X so I can get this imped to where I want it," or, "I really need to get tool/resource QL to Y so I can keep going; now how do I do that?"

 

The irony of imping in Wurm is that it -already- has an imping system I like, it's just the exception, not the rule.

[Amadee 1,543]

5 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

On 11/14/2018 at 5:53 AM, Ayes said:

I suggest people read those "limitations" again. This rules out a lot of things but...

 

Actually there is a way to easily "instance content" by creating a new server for it. In particular I am thinking in terms of a "Hunting Server" as has once again been brought to the forefront in the S&I section of the forums. There new mobs can be introduced that are more difficult to kill in various ways and also new item drops could be introduced on them as well with perhaps some enhanced effects on them.

 

This is why an isolated server that contains these types of mobs is a good idea as well; because not everyone enjoys the combat aspect of game play. So this would keep these more "challenging" mobs that the elite fighters are so fond of away from the normal servers. Think of this Hunting Server as an equivalent in terms of rewards (drops) as the HOTA is on the Chaos server, only centered upon PVE combat with aggressive mobs.

 

This is a nice idea too. We have had "Rares" for some years now but they have become almost commonplace, so some "moments of inspiration" that would add a new craftable item recipe bound to that individual character only would make the item very special. In a way this was already done with some new cooking recipes named to the individual creator but then anyone could create them afterwards which removed their special exclusivity of creation. Better that this be retained by that individual who could then offer it to other players.

 

=Ayes=

 

I've always had discussions about a hunting server for my WU servers. Since I added much more difficult mobs than trolls that roam the land, it's been a topic of conversation more than once. I have concerns that it would fail in execution. While the idea is sound, you could end up in a scenario where either everyone moves there to keep it challenging, or players avoid it completely because it takes too long to access. I'm unsure if there's a proper middle ground where neither of those problems exist. My attempt at it was making sure that difficult creatures spawned in biomes (tundra, snow, steppe, etc). That worked out to a decent degree, but it required a map specifically tailored around that fact.

 

Actually, there is a middle ground.  If there is no building allowed, then no one can move there. If no one can live there, then the sky's the limit for creative fun making.  hehe.   And there are a number of ways to make sure it doesn't take too long to access so the only people avoiding it would be those who simply don't care for that type of game play, while giving a fun alternative to those who do.  Some of the WU servers have portals and/or short boat trips, etc, to areas like that and as far as I've seen, people really like them.  If it's an isolated server, rather than just an island then your biomes idea would be viable as well as special mobs, etc.  Have a portal for access as well as boat access, and increasing mob difficulty further away from the portal with respawn option at the portal if/when you die. At least one I've seen has some sort of an "escape" option back to the portal if not in combat for those who have to log out and don't have time to fight their way back. (haven't used that one myself so not sure of the mechanics and/or abuse restrictions, etc. I'm going by hearing others talk about it).   But either way, island or isolated server, I feel a middle ground is definitely achievable as has been seen on a few of the WU servers. 

[Sindusk 2,448]

2 hours ago, Demonix said:

I know this was a necro, but I wanted to address your point about additions to improve/repair.  What about using an upgrade system to enhance or expand the functionality of mundane items?  Lets take ovens/forges for example - over time, people have asked for various things to improve their functionality.  If we could upgrade them using skill and uncommon resources it could be a nice side-dive compared to the imp/repair loop.

 

• increase fuel efficiency/burn time
• fuel meter (get an exact visual reading of how much time you have left before you need to refuel!)
• expanded capacity (lets say three ranks of this and each rank adds another shelf/compartment that can hold X volume. )
• and other specialized modules such as ore hoppers (can hold a single small or large crate and auto-feed ore), ingot molds (holds a single small or large crate, removes lumps from forge/smelter ), juice sluice (allows you to attach a sluice to a fruit press in which you can 'put' a single small barrel to catch juice created that goes over the capacity of the press) and Multi-condenser (allows a still to distill two different liquors at the same time at the cost of reduced capacity)

To expand on this, lets say each upgrade has a certain 'cost' other than the materials and skills needed to create it...lets say points.  Once you upgrade an item with a certain number of points, the item is no longer what it was and instead becomes a new item in the world with a new name (Baker's oven, double still, fire forge etc.)  Once the item 'evolves' it's quality goes back to, say, 40% of its original value and can be reimped if desired.

 

All of these ideas are exceptional and can be executed in the primary game (look at runes). However, the mark that I see being missed is: How does this work into the actual loop of improving an item? What you're describing here is basically what runes are - attach it and forget about it. Sure it "resets" the item and needs to be improved again, but that's more of a prestige instead of tackling the core issue we're attempting to be solve: the improve/repair gameplay loop. How do we adjust the actual gameplay loop of improve/repair specifically to add more depth to it and give these bonuses?

 

1 hour ago, Roccandil said:

 

Damage during imping drives me crazy, and when I quit Wurm, that will be one of the primary reasons.

 

If it were my game, item damage during imping would be -gone-, and I'd adjust imp sizes a bit smaller to compensate. That alone would make me happy with imping.

 

To be honest, though, I'd also revamp imping to be like imping buildings: the game takes into account your skill, the QL of the resource/tool, and gives you an imp size accordingly. If your skill and the QL are too low, the game simply won't imp, and will even tell you "you need skill level X or item QL Y to imp further".

 

That would not only be less frustrating, but instead of the current mushiness (how is higher skill actually helping me?), it would also provide concrete goals to shoot for: "I really need to get my skill to X so I can get this imped to where I want it," or, "I really need to get tool/resource QL to Y so I can keep going; now how do I do that?"

 

The irony of imping in Wurm is that it -already- has an imping system I like, it's just the exception, not the rule.

 

I wasn't there when the game was first being designed (obviously) so I don't know the logic behind the improve/repair design as it stands now. However, I can tell you that, as a personal opinion, I both agree with your statement that damage/repair feels bad while simultaneously disagreeing with you that removing the repair aspect would be beneficial. In short, it does make the improve system feel better, but it also comes with a set of issues unrelated to the actual gameplay itself that poses some issues.

• Capping the item to your skill creates an artificial boundary where players cannot spend their time to overachieve and make a truly exceptional item. If someone has 70 weapon smithing but obtained a fantastic longsword, you bet they're going to push it to 75-80 if they can. The existence of damage and repair allows the improve system to not artificially cap the quality you can achieve. In theory, with an astronomical amount of luck (and probably a few million years of time), someone with 1 skill could create a 99QL item.
• Removal of damage and repair during the improvement process would allow players to calculate their effective level with incredible ease. If you currently wanted to see how much time it would take to create a 70QL item with 80 skill, you'd basically just have to guess. The damage and repair system will throw a wrench in most calculations that you do to attempt to figure out the exact amount of time it would take. Sure, with enough effort put in, you could create a simulation program that would take the parameters and figure out the most optimal solution, but it's actually quite difficult. However, if damage and repair was removed from the gameplay loop, then it would be trivial for players to say "I have X skill, how many improves until I get it to Y QL?" A calculator for such a purpose would exist very shortly after the change.

That's not to say that removing repair is just a bad idea. I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here, and I feel that other changes would need to accompany the removal of damage and repair from the improvement process.

 

25 minutes ago, Amadee said:

 

Actually, there is a middle ground.  If there is no building allowed, then no one can move there. If no one can live there, then the sky's the limit for creative fun making.  hehe.   And there are a number of ways to make sure it doesn't take too long to access so the only people avoiding it would be those who simply don't care for that type of game play, while giving a fun alternative to those who do.  Some of the WU servers have portals and/or short boat trips, etc, to areas like that and as far as I've seen, people really like them.  If it's an isolated server, rather than just an island then your biomes idea would be viable as well as special mobs, etc.  Have a portal for access as well as boat access, and increasing mob difficulty further away from the portal with respawn option at the portal if/when you die. At least one I've seen has some sort of an "escape" option back to the portal if not in combat for those who have to log out and don't have time to fight their way back. (haven't used that one myself so not sure of the mechanics and/or abuse restrictions, etc. I'm going by hearing others talk about it).   But either way, island or isolated server, I feel a middle ground is definitely achievable as has been seen on a few of the WU servers. 

 

That's a really good point. I know a few server owners who have experimented with hunting servers, but I'm not fully read in on how they played out or the problems they had to deal with. I'll have to reach out to a few of them and get their thoughts from the owner perspective of things. I think that's the insight I'm missing to really form a proper opinion on the subject.

[Roccandil 959]

1 minute ago, Sindusk said:

• Capping the item to your skill creates an artificial boundary where players cannot spend their time to overachieve and make a truly exceptional item. If someone has 70 weapon smithing but obtained a fantastic longsword, you bet they're going to push it to 75-80 if they can. The existence of damage and repair allows the improve system to not artificially cap the quality you can achieve. In theory, with an astronomical amount of luck (and probably a few million years of time), someone with 1 skill could create a 99QL item.

 

Well, let me be angel's advocate (I assume that's a counter-devil's-advocate! ) :

 

As you point out with your theoretical 1 skill imp to 99 example, its significant requirement is time: lots and lots of time, doing -exactly- the same thing.

 

Whereas, capping QL via the building imping system means that to imp to 99 QL (which means skill, tool QL, and resource QL are all critical), a player must explore improving all support systems: resource gathering, high QL resource gathering tools, high QL imping tools (which can include butchering for pelts, stonecutting for whetstones, blacksmithing, carpentry, weaponsmithing, etc.), and, of course, the actual imping skill. (Crafting imbues would become more important, too! And there would be room for more interesting runes.)

 

So, instead of simple vanilla repetition, the player is encouraged to go and figure out a lot of different stuff and build top-QL infrastructure if they want to push the envelope (or support the economy by buying top-QL tools, which, incidentally, would now have a bigger market).

 

Either way, I think that's a good thing.

 

1 minute ago, Sindusk said:

• Removal of damage and repair during the improvement process would allow players to calculate their effective level with incredible ease. If you currently wanted to see how much time it would take to create a 70QL item with 80 skill, you'd basically just have to guess. The damage and repair system will throw a wrench in most calculations that you do to attempt to figure out the exact amount of time it would take. Sure, with enough effort put in, you could create a simulation program that would take the parameters and figure out the most optimal solution, but it's actually quite difficult. However, if damage and repair was removed from the gameplay loop, then it would be trivial for players to say "I have X skill, how many improves until I get it to Y QL?" A calculator for such a purpose would exist very shortly after the change.

 

Hmm. With the imping system I'm suggesting, imp sizes would be affected by tool and resource QL as well as skill, and since tools would still be damaged with use, as tool QL deteriorates, so would imp sizes, which I suspect would make such precise calculations more difficult.

 

Even so, knowledge is a good thing, and in general I'd like to see RNG mushiness replaced. Having a hard goal to look forward to keeps people playing, whereas not seeing any tangible benefit discourages playing.

 

For instance, I'd consider changing metallurgy to always produce lump QL at the average of your skill and the key resource, with no RNG effects. That means increasing metallurgy skill would be hugely and obviously important, and people would have a clear goal and reason to work on it.

[Nordlys 1,424]

@Sinduskdid you look into the option of classes/roles? How would that work in this universe? Im obviously not thinking about the "classic" classes like mage or warrior. But rather roles that you choose to inhabit when you reach a spesific point.

 

A vague example would be if you have 50 farming you can choose to become a role as a farmer. This role would give you some benefits towards some actions, and have a negative effect towards something else. 

 

I know this is kinda out of place regarding your last points about improving/repairing, but its a thought that can be tweaked in alot of ways, and adds something new.

 

Mark that im not automaticly thinking this is a good addition to the game. Im just throwing it out there so you fab people who is behind the wheel of this ship can note it down. Who knows, maybe its a winner out there?

 

Eidt: If this post is totally out of place, ill post it in the suggestion section (or someone can move it).

Edited November 16, 2018 by Nordlys

[kochinac 1,395]

1 hour ago, Nordlys said:

@Sinduskdid you look into the option of classes/roles? How would that work in this universe? Im obviously not thinking about the "classic" classes like mage or warrior. But rather roles that you choose to inhabit when you reach a spesific point.

 

A vague example would be if you have 50 farming you can choose to become a role as a farmer. This role would give you some benefits towards some actions, and have a negative effect towards something else. 

 

I know this is kinda out of place regarding your last points about improving/repairing, but its a thought that can be tweaked in alot of ways, and adds something new.

 

Mark that im not automaticly thinking this is a good addition to the game. Im just throwing it out there so you fab people who is behind the wheel of this ship can note it down. Who knows, maybe its a winner out there?

 

Eidt: If this post is totally out of place, ill post it in the suggestion section (or someone can move it).

Please for the love of all gods no classes, expecially not negative effeccts, its bad enough we have meditation paths and different religions already...

Having no classes its what makes Wurm unique for me and the main reason i chose it over the other games

[Demonix 79]

3 hours ago, Sindusk said:

 

All of these ideas are exceptional and can be executed in the primary game (look at runes). However, the mark that I see being missed is: How does this work into the actual loop of improving an item? What you're describing here is basically what runes are - attach it and forget about it. Sure it "resets" the item and needs to be improved again, but that's more of a prestige instead of tackling the core issue we're attempting to be solve: the improve/repair gameplay loop. How do we adjust the actual gameplay loop of improve/repair specifically to add more depth to it and give these bonuses?

 

 

 

You're right, as written thats exactly what they sound like;  I'm at work writing this and kind of busy so I wasn't able to expand on it.  While some of the suggested upgrades do share rune functionality there are supposed to be physical changes.  For example, when talking about expanded capacity for ovens and forges I was thinking instead of just increasing the volume it can hold like a rune would, that the upgrade would actually install shelves or trays (similar to how larders or storage shelves work) where you could separate projects by whatever criteria you see fit and exceed the 100 item limit without using wogic like leather backpacks.  Other upgrades, like the juice sluice,  are WAY better than their rune equivalent and others like the ore hopper are just low-scale automation.

 

I suppose it doesnt affect the core imp/rep/imp loop but it does give a longer term goal to strive for - specializing your equipment to do the things you like to do better.  Materials for these upgrades can be scaled by the power of the upgrade;  rift mats, moon metals, animal parts, unusual construction materials (a use for slate or sandstone?  -GASP-).  Also, in order to make sure you can't stuff all the upgrades into an item you can limit it by points (as I mentioned above) giving multiple upgrade paths.

 

[Nordlys 1,424]

2 hours ago, kochinac said:

Please for the love of all gods no classes, expecially not negative effeccts, its bad enough we have meditation paths and different religions already...

Having no classes its what makes Wurm unique for me and the main reason i chose it over the other games

What about roles, that you can choose to inhabit - or choose not to. Or choose to change? Its merely an idea. And as i said; i dont even know if i like it myself. But there may be an aspect of it thats useful. Maybe priests and meditation is how far this idea goes, maybe not.

[Roccandil 959]

36 minutes ago, Nordlys said:

What about roles, that you can choose to inhabit - or choose not to. Or choose to change? Its merely an idea. And as i said; i dont even know if i like it myself. But there may be an aspect of it thats useful. Maybe priests and meditation is how far this idea goes, maybe not.

 

I see this as simply expanding titles to actually do something useful, like armorsmithing titles. I wouldn't include any penalties, but a small bonus for each title might be nice.

 

Oh, and maybe allow titles to be "charged", to reward people for sticking with a title for a while. So, if I pick a farmer title, and "charge" it up with a lot of farming, then I get a bigger bonus (whatever it is: maybe up to and including +1 harvest per tile).

 

So, you can still switch titles around to get the base title bonus, but if you want the really good title bonus, you'll specialize.

 

Oh, and something still else:

 

This also means the parent skills titles could mean something. So, for instance, while a fully-charged blacksmithing title might be worth 25% to blacksmithing operations, a fully-charged smithing title could be 5% to -all- smithing operations (armor/weapon/lock/etc.)

 

OK, and the ideas keep coming:

 

Since we have two title slots, they could be set up such that the first is a modifier of the second (adjective/adverb + noun). (Ideally, I feel like stat titles should be modifiers, and the skill titles nouns, but hey).

 

So, a "Logician Master Blacksmith" (for example) might make lighter, more efficient tools. A "Strongman Weaponsmith" might make heavier weapons, that do more damage.

 

Granted, that would be a mess to balance, but would be totally cool if done right.

 

The bottom line is that the "class" specialization would be totally voluntary, wouldn't lock anybody out of anything, and the only "penalty" is opportunity cost: if I'm a titled Blacksmith, I'm not a titled Weaponsmith.

 

And, this could even be tied to the goals system. Hurrah, I've unlocked the Blacksmith title, and now I want to pursue the goals that fully unlock the power of the title: so presto, I click "go", and the game gives me a set of goals tailored for the aspiring blacksmith (and they would be -much -easier than the goals for a Master Blacksmith, whose title would naturally be more powerful).

 

So, from an endgame perspective, you could get to level 100, and then have to complete a truly epic series of goals to unlock the power of the title (which you would then, of course, want to use).

Edited November 16, 2018 by Roccandil