Sindusk

Expanding End-Game

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Hi everyone. For a while now I've been thinking about how to expand the end-game of Wurm. This is primarily a problem in Wurm Unlimited where the skill gain is faster and people have 90+ in many skills. However, it could also potentially apply to veterans of Wurm Online. Here's the predicament:

 

Assume players have 90+ of every (or many) skills. Assume they have a set of dragonscale/dragonhide, seryll, adamantine, and glimmersteel armor + weapons. Assume they have a deed with enough currency to keep it running. Basically, they have everything the game has to offer right now.

 

What could be added to expand on end-game for these players? What would offer them something new and exciting to do to "progress" forward and achieve something new in terms of gameplay instead of asking them to set their own goals?

 

There's a few limitations:

  • Cannot focus on combat. It's easy to add something difficult to kill and reward something nice, but not everyone enjoys the combat aspect of gameplay.
  • No new models/assets. New creatures, weapons, armor, and items are difficult to implement and would take a lot of time and effort to produce.
  • A new map/server can be used. Opening a new map specifically for the new content would be fine. If it's related to the geography of the map, it will work.
  • Skill cap increases are not an option. This would upset current playerbase if it was done, and would furthermore be extremely difficult to do because of how Wurm is coded. Some 3rd dimension to it might be an option, though, such as a "prestige" system of sorts, perhaps. Maybe someone can think of a good system with that. Just know that item QL and skills cannot be raised over 100.0.

 

I've been looking at other games to try and find inspiration. Many of the ideas I came up with ended up leading me to instanced content (isolated in an instance outside of the "primary" world), which isn't an option for Wurm. I'm curious if anyone has any ideas regarding how to expand the end-game of Wurm through mods. I'd like to keep it to the restrictions above, especially the new models/assets one, so that it would not require a client modification.

 

Thank you for reading,

Sindusk

Edited by Sindusk

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Wurm is a sandbox..there is no end-game(yes you could call it endgame when you grind every skill over 90 which is very very hard and takes years but wurm is not just about grinding..you can explore,build places,hunt stuff,breed animals,craft things)

There could be added new skills or professions but in the end is all about what you want to do and like.

There are  so much stuff you can do in wurm,you just need to stop thinking at other games while you play wurm and compare.. wurm is different,special,unique why would we want it it to be like every other game outhere.

 

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59 minutes ago, Jonydowy said:

Wurm is a sandbox..there is no end-game(yes you could call it endgame when you grind every skill over 90 which is very very hard and takes years but wurm is not just about grinding..you can explore,build places,hunt stuff,breed animals,craft things)

There could be added new skills or professions but in the end is all about what you want to do and like.

There are  so much stuff you can do in wurm,you just need to stop thinking at other games while you play wurm and compare.. wurm is different,special,unique why would we want it it to be like every other game outhere.

Perhaps I took a poor tone in the original post. I'm not saying that the lack of end-game is a problem. I'm asking for ideas on how to expand it. I'd like to try my hand at creating an "end-game" oriented mod for Wurm Unlimited, and I'm looking for ideas.

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Honestly before taking on a new big 'End Game' type project ( rifts or whatever ) I'd like to see old issues fixed completed and looked at.

 

PvP - Way to many issues that folks are talking about, not to mention Epic cluster.

Balance of priest and meditation ( also being currently looked at )

UI ( in the works now )

Retention of just fresh new players, how to introduce them to the game and keep them playing

 

After the current and old projects are completed, then would be a good time to say 'Ok, now what?'

 

Somethings i'd personally like to see, new champion animal types, crabs, turtles, heck even sheep lol.

New mini uniques like a Crap Boss, Wolf, Dog ( please no tomes or dragon blood type crap off these )

 

New uses for the tree types or even bushes.

New Animal traits that give benifits and the bad traits make more sense ( unhealthy gives less meat or hide or whatever on butchering ) 

 

But in my opinion, End Game to me means, I log on, go raid for 5 hours, then log off for the rest of the week.  for me If i wanted to go do that i'd log onto warcraft ( or any other handful of games )

 

Wurm is about hard work, creating something from nothing, taking days, weeks, months, years to complete, then standing back and going 'Dam I did that.'  not standing around 40 other folks waiting for some boss to spawn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Stormblade said:

 

Wurm is about hard work, creating something from nothing, taking days, weeks, months, years to complete, then standing back and going 'Dam I did that.'  not standing around 40 other folks waiting for some boss to spawn.

 

 

Exactly!

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setting aside the whole "sandbox = no end game," 90+ skills and godly gear isnt really end game imo. End game is finding a shelter and living near every resource needed to grind skills. After finding a clay pit, getting a 2x3 house with forges, fencing animals in and etc, all you do is sit around your deed to grind it and then go out to hunt over.. and over.. and over again (unless you go have fun and do some other things to mess around, but this is just skill related). I don't think the issue is people reaching 90+ because odds are they are either just gonna mess around or go towards 100, just like people at 20 either messing around or heading to 90.

 

Setting aside the whole skill thing, Any additional goals in wurm should be somewhat minecraft/landmark related. Instead of just getting stuff to satisfy yourself, it would be nice to make areas to game, but wurm doesnt usually promote that. I made a suggestion to make chess piece statues just to make a really cool chess stadium (wasnt gonna deed it, just like 70ql walls and occasional repairs) and most i got was a meme saying "lol wot" and a "why not?". I was gonna make another suggestion but then wondered if it was even worth posting seeing that people just want to make life easier, not add anything fun. The suggestion was to change yellow potions to be specific groups of potions. Furniture potion would turn you into furniture and animal potions will turn you into an animal, if theres anything else im missing it will turn you into that other group. Then adding both potions for like 5c on traders so they can be bought at anytime. Lastly, make it so when a player mouses over the piece of furniture or animal they see it as a furniture or animal, including the menu. So a person disguised as a chair could be sat on, a person who is a chest can be opened (but empty). Why did i want this?? Prop hunt.... I wanted to make a huge mansion filled with furniture and then hold events (that nobody will probably come to) and play prop hunt.

 

2 hours ago, Sindusk said:

No new models/assets. New creatures, weapons, armor, and items are difficult to implement and would take a lot of time and effort to produce.

Would this count as a new model/assest?

 

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Maybe not really an end game much, but I feel like 100 in a skill should give more rewards than just a title, you get a title for 50 skill too.  At minimum I'd say getting 100 locks the skill and you can't lose it.  It's not gonna devalue PoK at all, I have 3 100 skills and have no interest in PoK as is, with the risk of loss. 

 

But on the subject of titles and bonuses, I feel like the "armor smithing" title bonuses should be expanded on, with a scaling bonus per 50/70/90/100 title worn, and for many more skills

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Higher skill should give more chance to get a rare , someone with 1 carp should not have the same chance to get a shiny as a 90 carp 

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44 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

Maybe not really an end game much, but I feel like 100 in a skill should give more rewards than just a title, you get a title for 50 skill too.  At minimum I'd say getting 100 locks the skill and you can't lose it.  It's not gonna devalue PoK at all, I have 3 100 skills and have no interest in PoK as is, with the risk of loss.

yes pls

 

45 minutes ago, MrGARY said:

But on the subject of titles and bonuses, I feel like the "armor smithing" title bonuses should be expanded on, with a scaling bonus per 50/70/90/100 title worn, and for many more skills

no pls

I really don't want to play the changethetitleforwhateveritemyouarecurrentlyimping game

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15 minutes ago, Worksock said:

I really don't want to play the changethetitleforwhateveritemyouarecurrentlyimping game

 

It already does exist for armor/horse shoes, it's just more for tackling the everything.takes.too.damn.long.to.do.why problem

 

I suppose there could be a toggle in /titles to change it so that you can get the bonus without the titles needing active or need to select them to get a bonus

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1 hour ago, Dadamage said:

Higher skill should give more chance to get a rare , someone with 1 carp should not have the same chance to get a shiny as a 90 carp 

no, Not until im done playing 4 accounts at the same time to make rares in bulk

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5 hours ago, Sindusk said:

What would offer them something new and exciting to do to "progress" forward and achieve something new in terms of gameplay

>>>>>instead of asking them to set their own goals<<<<<?

 

Note the arrow marked words. I suppose a fair number of game players wish to be lead around by the nose from one thing to the next and possibly this adds to the diminishing allure of Wurm after its initial experience. Yet for me Wurm is exactly what you suggest to reduce, determining how I would like to play the game. I don't even see things that I participate in within the game as "goals". They are merely things that I might or might not get around to eventually.

 

This is the creativity that WO and to an even greater extent WU, offer. WU because of the shortened action timers and faster skill gains which enable more of the creativity of deed building sooner and on a more realistic timeframe. Since my focus is upon deed building and environmental enhancement I am pretty much content with WU offers in this respect and to a lesser extent in WO because of the tedious skill/timer restrictions. As long as new crafting/building features are added to the game as has been the case now, I would have nothing more to suggest, other than to keep the destructive elements away from these accomplishments.

 

For more action, quests, mob fighting, dungeon crawls and pvp there are far better online games to choose from. This is not really WO/WU's strength or focus, nor should it be. It is already a *silk purse* in sandbox design and going in the other direction will only diminish it into a *sow's ear*. If only Wurm were what it is not seems to be the common theme in these game redesign and focus suggestions. Just as you, the game must accept and embrace what it is and expand upon that. For the most part it does, just not some of its players. Perhaps then they are more the problem that needs some tinkering with?

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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1 hour ago, Ayes said:

 

Note the arrow marked words. I suppose a fair number of game players wish to be lead around by the nose from one thing to the next and possibly this adds to the diminishing allure of Wurm after its initial experience.

We both read that in a very different way. when i heard "Instead of telling players to make their own goals" I thought of making additions to the game so they have more goals to make rather than just telling them, which is very possible. EX: the difference between telling people to paint their building white, and adding marble walls to the game.

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Maybe I posted this in the wrong section. Maybe I didn't write it well enough. I don't know... but I read through every response and only one person actually posted an idea. I don't need to be convinced that Wurm is a snowflake of a game and that the very element I'm challenging is what makes it special. I'm asking for ideas because I do not have one for this purpose. Wurm Unlimited has a server list that I look at and feel sad, because every single one of them ends up exactly the same way:

5 hours ago, Yiraia said:

setting aside the whole "sandbox = no end game," 90+ skills and godly gear isnt really end game imo. End game is finding a shelter and living near every resource needed to grind skills. After finding a clay pit, getting a 2x3 house with forges, fencing animals in and etc, all you do is sit around your deed to grind it and then go out to hunt over.. and over.. and over again (unless you go have fun and do some other things to mess around, but this is just skill related). I don't think the issue is people reaching 90+ because odds are they are either just gonna mess around or go towards 100, just like people at 20 either messing around or heading to 90.

This is exactly what I want to challenge right now. I'm currently considering working on something that changes the gameplay experience fundamentally, and creates a sense of purpose for those who want it. I'm not saying it should apply to Wurm Online, but I wanted to tap the Wurm Online community for ideas, since you've been playing the game longer and have seen the result of countless years of progress. I want ideas on how to do that.

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The only thing I can think of is access to much more difficult uniques with special items and gear accessible to those who could kill them. There is very little you can do in a sandbox without stop it from being a true sandbox. When you start leading your playerbase in a direction its when it becomes a themepark.

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One of the examples that currently exists in the game is the sorcery system. If the tomes were created through player skills instead of found on uniques, it would satisfy all of the requirements.

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I like the idea of others where you would have portals, easy to sail through or make as in epic portal, where you would taken to unique huntings grounds different from the normal environment and with differing monsters or boss monsters or something unique to itself, you could then host events that could be like timed events or points events where a person participation is tallied and awarded items for said participation and create a competition between players or server wide etc, especially if you had a bunch of players stuck in the 90 skill range it would be great to see who had the most skill really.. or you could transport them to a place where a real Wurm unique is and see how much damage could be taken off or how long said player would last fighting it.. think of it.. it would create something to boost your skills even higher or a reason to do so.. for the coveted league championships or whatever .. there are endless possibilities..

 

 

this is no criticism but didn't you have any idea what you'd want when you came up with this idea to create an end sorta gaming experience, and like others have said, Wurm at its finest is a measure of how long one has participated, I am a proud newb once again if I aneed something better built I pay for it, I don't turn the kills to 10X gain and grind it as I know eventually I will reach there with work and effort and then I feel so proud of my accomplishments and that is enough  , like I get so much enthusiasm when I see the Facytional Fight brothers build in stone, thre timer goes by every 2 seconds ten times its awe inspiring and It makes me want to excel at my tasks to egt to that level.. and to continue to pay for deeds and premium, and yes I do own a copy of Wurm Unlimited how could I not support thew company in all its facets but I have yet to find a community that matches ours even though we have lost many many good people, many strong voices that used to bring tears to my eyes..

 

 

Edited by luvable
Removed drug refrence

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"Endgame Content" is somewhat of a tricky topic with wurm since when does one reach it?

 

I can only speak as a magic user, but engame content for me would be *useful* spells locked by channeling (or other skills) rather than faith.  But as to what spells?  There is very little left now that isn't already the "province" of another craft.

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You can't really expand the endgame. Grinding skills is not the endgame. Skills are merely a means to an end. The game is ultimately about exploring and creation.

 

The problem with Wurm Online is that exploring after a certain point isn't going to happen, because there's nothing left to explore. Creation is very slow and tedious, so you're not going to suddenly decide one day to rebuild your entire deed either. This means that you eventually just run out of things to do and the game becomes a chore of maintenance jobs.

 

To make Wurm more fun, I would suggest to drastically reduce timers for the more tedious actions, such as building and terraforming the land. Then after that I would suggest to add some kind of 'ladder' or scoreboard system where deeds strive to become the best at certain things. Deed that grew the most crops, deed that made the most/best tools/weapons/armor, deed that bred the most/best horses, deed that slew the most trolls, deed that slew the most enemy players, etc etc etc. Then after the end of a ladder period, reward the winners with some kind of relevant loot or artifact and reset the server with a new map to start again (but not resetting players). 

 

It's not perfect and you could make a lot of changes to it, but in my opinion this would focus gameplay on the most fun aspects of Wurm. Exploring and settling. While also catering to those who enjoy the grinding and skilling aspect. The fact that opening a new map or server always brings a ton of people back from the dead should be a big indicator that this is what people love about the game.

Edited by Scribble

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Is this still up for discussion?

 

As much as I loved this game and would love to continue playing it, the biggest issue is it's endgame. Eventually once you have everything, there is nothing to do. For that reason, I can't play Wurm Online or Wurm Unlimited because of it's lack of purpose. The most fun I had in the game was playing entirely by myself, which kind of goes against how the game is supposed to be played. Yet after the repetition and reward, you being to feel like everything you do is meaningless. The fun quickly fades. PvP is a hot topic for endgame, because it allows you to challenge others through all your efforts. Unfortunately the combat in Wurm is so ancient that not even hardcore PvP players would bother with it.

 

Aside from that you have PvE. In order to make that fun you need a never ending goal. Unfortunately, there is no goal you can set in Wurm where eventually that you can't reach or care about after reaching it. I mean all you need to do is join an already built settlement and you're done basically. It's no wonder that most of the players are veterans that haven't quit ever since. I mean they built up Wurm and had a blast doing it from the very beginning. However what about a newcomer? They have their goals finished before they even started by joining these vets. If they decided to do everything on their own, they're better off playing Wurm Unlimited. Otherwise they'll end up paying to barely keep up with everyone else and will always get taken advantage of for every single trade.

 

Most games offer quests that never end to keep players entertained in a never ending cycle. I'm not a fan of that, but it's something. Another thing is trying to obtain power. There is no power in this game. You can't own or fight for territories and the economy in the game is non-existent or even workable. I recently returned to this game and I'm much older now than before. Something that I'm interesting in nowadays is economics. When I came back, I found out that there is no main cities with local auction houses. Most trade is done through the mail, where it just magically appears in people's boxes. You also have to speak to people in order to trade. It's just so disorganized. And what exactly drains resources out of the game to stop resources from inflating?

 

I highly suggest you focus on the economy aspect of the game if anything and hopefully combat. We need better ways to trade without the need of communication. I recommend looking at games like Albion Online, a similar game with heavy grind but actually has everything else I'm talking about to encourage players to keep playing. Hope some of this helps. Also the ability to sleep on a private server on wurm unlimited to speed up the process of growth for plants and such is another thing to look at. If all that is too much, I think the game has ran it's course. It's old, graphics are highly outdated, and java isn't ideal for gaming. Maybe Wurm Online 2.0?

Edited by Trenix

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Cheers for looking into this Sindusk.

 

The player base tends to get re-energized and motivated by significant updates. For example, the cooking update. Even the dyeing update that brought us crazy coloured plate armours and ships got people excited for a bit. These be improvements and expansions of the current Wurm system and there be tons of such suggestions in this here forum.

 

Off the top of my head, I can say:

- combat system overhaul: make Wurm combat non-idle and involving, and that's an instant excitement multiplier. Nobody's going to treat combat as time out to fix a cuppa or take an unhurried leisurely visit to the loo.

- AH (which is currently broken, as we all know).

- similar to the amazing cooking update, an introduction of alchemy would get people into a delightful frenzy. Potions, salves and the likes fit perfectly into the Wurm world.

- cosmetics: allowing players to change and customise their characters' looks. Expanding on this would be the addition of more clothing and armour items. This requires new assets to be created. However, variety is indeed the spice of life. Everyone wants to express their uniqueness.

 

On 7/14/2017 at 9:32 PM, Scribble said:

...Creation is very slow and tedious...

 

As it should be. That is the nature of Wurm. There are tons of games out there that are #instabuild #instagratification. Vynora forbids that Wurm joins that horde. Everything takes effort and time, and that makes us appreciate things. We see a beautiful, majestic deed, or a powerfully enchanted QL90 rare sword, and we know the crazy amount of effort that goes into them.

Edited by Mataleao
I c4nt spe1lin g00d

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Without the addition of new interesting mid level non-unique creatures (rift boss or slightly harder) the end game in Wurm Online is playing on a PvP server and trying your wits at outsmarting or out-surviving other legitimate players, gms, devs, and of course the 'win at all cost' players that will use any means available, legal or not.  

Edited by madnezz

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It's not end game per se, more improving something that already exists and giving it better flare.

My thoughts are.

Wurm has too much skills of little or no use, replace them with new more interesting skills like glassmaking, weaving like hats, baskets, furniture, carpets, other stuff from straw/thatch/grass whatever. Do we seriously need 6 shield skills for the same thing?

Overhaul of existing skills to make them more usefull and fun. Alchemy in a way more similar to cooking so we can discover potions, set up our own alchemy labs with glass equipment. Improve butchering, loot is so same and boring. Bigger animals more meat, harder animals rarest ingredients for alchemy. Looking forward to see what fishing will bring. Priest overhaul seems to improve a lot of stuff but its not real overhaul in my eyes, enchanters are still slot machines, only one skill for all type of spells and distribution of spells by gods is not good imo would prefer scenario with several skills for magic where people choose which spells they want to grind for. Gaining faith, we need better ways for it sermoning for 100 faith is stupid and unresonable painfull. It creates timed chores of this game which not everyone can follow, I would rather not spend my whole several weeks at impalongs staring at screen, chating, and casting from time to time, I wanna play a game. Fighting is boring as hell and not engaging and to dependant on numbers. System of fighting that relies on physics more is I suppose lightyears away unfortunately (indie project Valheim or something like that, has really interesting fighting system)

For crafting everyone can make everything, no hard earned uniqueness, how about some really rare crafting recepie that would make few crafters famous as they are the only ones that can make some item. Or maybe if not dropable recepie moment of inspiration for crafters when they can think a way of improving some tool or designing new. Like carpetners having inspiration and innovation designs press over the barrel that is used on ground and doesn't need emptying so often.

As for assets, maka a list what you need somewhere, upload things that needs works done, specify style and other aspects people need to do so they work fit Wurm, there are a lot of talented people that maybe don't even play game but want to volunteer and make stuff for the game. Make a competition for ingame rewards for people that would make new models and textures for the game.

I probably could have made several suggestion posts out of this but got inspiration to throw some rough ideas.

Edited by kochinac

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On 7/12/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sindusk said:

There's a few limitations:

I suggest people read those "limitations" again. This rules out a lot of things but...

 

On 7/12/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sindusk said:

I've been looking at other games to try and find inspiration. Many of the ideas I came up with ended up leading me to instanced content (isolated in an instance outside of the "primary" world), which isn't an option for Wurm.

Actually there is a way to easily "instance content" by creating a new server for it. In particular I am thinking in terms of a "Hunting Server" as has once again been brought to the forefront in the S&I section of the forums. There new mobs can be introduced that are more difficult to kill in various ways and also new item drops could be introduced on them as well with perhaps some enhanced effects on them.

 

On 7/12/2017 at 11:49 AM, Sindusk said:

It's easy to add something difficult to kill and reward something nice, but not everyone enjoys the combat aspect of gameplay.

This is why an isolated server that contains these types of mobs is a good idea as well; because not everyone enjoys the combat aspect of game play. So this would keep these more "challenging" mobs that the elite fighters are so fond of away from the normal servers. Think of this Hunting Server as an equivalent in terms of rewards (drops) as the HOTA is on the Chaos server, only centered upon PVE combat with aggressive mobs.

 

3 hours ago, kochinac said:

For crafting everyone can make everything, no hard earned uniqueness, how about some really rare crafting recepie that would make few crafters famous as they are the only ones that can make some item. Or maybe if not dropable recepie moment of inspiration for crafters when they can think a way of improving some tool or designing new. Like carpetners having inspiration and innovation designs press over the barrel that is used on ground and doesn't need emptying so often.

This is a nice idea too. We have had "Rares" for some years now but they have become almost commonplace, so some "moments of inspiration" that would add a new craftable item recipe bound to that individual character only would make the item very special. In a way this was already done with some new cooking recipes named to the individual creator but then anyone could create them afterwards which removed their special exclusivity of creation. Better that this be retained by that individual who could then offer it to other players.

 

=Ayes=

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