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JockII

A response to Enki - How soft and pointless has PvP become.

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59 minutes ago, warrior said:

Nice to see a whole thread from somebody who dosen't even play wurm :)

 

Im 100% behind Enki punishing this sort of behavior. Toxic players do nothing but drive away nice people and detour new people from playing the game.

I think it is fine to deal with this sort of behavior on a case by case basis.

 

You're looking at it all from such a narrow minded position that suits only your own agenda, please try to see the bigger picture.

I may not be 1 of the 3000 account that play wurm currently premium but I am one of the 40000 people who bought and play Wurm unlimted. 

 

Any and all changes that come to wurm in the aspect of mechanics will have just as big. If not more of an impact on them.

 

This thread is not only about the same situation but about restoring the option to return and building on the practice of creating meaningful PvP.

Edited by JockII

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4 minutes ago, JockII said:

Any and all changes that come to wurm in the aspect of mechanics will have just as big. If not more of an impact on them.

 

Right now, the trouble is not the mechanisms, which were not changed, but people behavior and what is acceptable up to a point. Sometimes rullings need to be done, because the 'mechanisms' solution would be worse than the rules. And sometimes people should think "why did we went to a point where rullings had to be done so we could still have fun on the game?!"

 

Wurm cannot be compared to any others MMos around, not only we have a real money value behind most items, skills and affinities, but we also have a small community. If we want to see the game succeed and the PvP survive, we need to prevent any actions that will lead us to a wall at full speed with the loss of players.

 

Spying as always been a thing in Wurm PvP scene both ingame and out of the game. And most of it is deemed metagaming nowadays, little risks taken, lots of rewards and lots of players leaving due to it. There shouldn't be any spying ingame or undermining actions without the risk of being discovered as a member of an ennemy faction, which is not something the mechanisms allows.

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Please don't put PvP servers into the same category as PvE. In PvE players don't have tools to deal with situations like this, while in PvP they do. Infact situations like that generate content for players in sandbox games: Your stuff gets stolen, you go and hunt the thief down, or die trying(thats very simplified look ofc). Which of course takes us to the problem, the thief can take stolen goods to safety. But THAT is the problem, not the fact, that theft could happen.

All the talk about honorable/cowardly, monetary value.. thats pointless argument. If you gank someone 5vs1 for example, or wait, until everyone goes to sleep, then raid a deed.. It is same cowardly action, as taking someones stuff from their vault.. and the monetary losses are still the same for that person.

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1 hour ago, rixk said:

Please don't put PvP servers into the same category as PvE. In PvE players don't have tools to deal with situations like this, while in PvP they do. Infact situations like that generate content for players in sandbox games: Your stuff gets stolen, you go and hunt the thief down, or die trying(thats very simplified look ofc). Which of course takes us to the problem, the thief can take stolen goods to safety. But THAT is the problem, not the fact, that theft could happen.

All the talk about honorable/cowardly, monetary value.. thats pointless argument. If you gank someone 5vs1 for example, or wait, until everyone goes to sleep, then raid a deed.. It is same cowardly action, as taking someones stuff from their vault.. and the monetary losses are still the same for that person.

I agree and this comes down to the fact that new mechanics or changes to existing set ups need to adjust to this.

 

Simplest solution is separate PvP and pve and offer this same rulebased system of theft ( theft that mechanics cannot protect) on pve.

 

Players in pve require these safety nets that can catch the things that slip through the gaps.

 

However, we seem to be circulating around this one aspect that is only a small price of what this thread is about.

 

We should discuss what can bring new meaningful PvP and changes to encourage cooperation and trustworthy play styles. Taking away the advantages of played for ones on gain by requiring a level of team work and leadership.

 

I urge you to move this thread towards this discussion of how we can make PvP inviting and rewarding for community based play.

Edited by JockII

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1 hour ago, rixk said:

Please don't put PvP servers into the same category as PvE. In PvE players don't have tools to deal with situations like this, while in PvP they do. Infact situations like that generate content for players in sandbox games: Your stuff gets stolen, you go and hunt the thief down, or die trying(thats very simplified look ofc). Which of course takes us to the problem, the thief can take stolen goods to safety. But THAT is the problem, not the fact, that theft could happen.

All the talk about honorable/cowardly, monetary value.. thats pointless argument. If you gank someone 5vs1 for example, or wait, until everyone goes to sleep, then raid a deed.. It is same cowardly action, as taking someones stuff from their vault.. and the monetary losses are still the same for that person.

 

This is all good and all in principle. The issue being you can't go hunt them down and kill them for your items back if they move it all to freedom.

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25 minutes ago, Redd said:

 

This is all good and all in principle. The issue being you can't go hunt them down and kill them for your items back if they move it all to freedom.

Exactly.. The discussion should revolve around that issue, not whether stealing is good or bad on chaos.

 

We have had several methods suggested how to solve it.

1. Completely detach Chaos from PvE servers.. as Spellcast mentioned, that has been done in the past, it affected Chaos population badly. So this is not good option.

2. Limited access to Chaos through portals or whatever.. Your character is transferred to Chaos/back with current skillset, but no items. That sounds like something, which addresses the problem.

3. I'll add also Rolfs attempt to find a solution.. Enable PvP on PvE servers. Well, that didn't turn out so well.

 

One more thing to add:

Of course this is also a bit off, that giving permission to people to repair your buildings in case of a raid will make all your stuff vulnerable. In the past there were strongwalled mine vaults. That was another extreme. I think the right way should be somewhere in the middle. But one thing is clear, that security of deed and security of items should be completely separated.

Edited by rixk
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Enki and co should review every case given to them by people. If they deem the actions to be of "toxic players", then I should hope they ban them.

 

Let Enki and co pick where and when they act, that way it keeps the scum who do this guessing, and hopefully makes it too risky to do it anymore.

 

 

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In the end (and seeing the topic change), what kind of pvp do you want to see?

There is no end of the game, no reset button when its won, no winning conditions.

There is no balance as well, one kingdom will always dominate everyone else.

There are personal attacks and feuds, there cannot be happy stabbing altogether when things get personals like that.

The question of the full loot pvp or not. What motivates you to fight for.

 

What about a system where you are a nameless account, randomly put in a team for the match (going till one team win) and then reset and put with others players to play, with a maximum amounts of players per team / balanced teams, without direct ties to the main cluster(s) - maybe just a copy of your skills so you don't have to start over the grind... and potential reward that can go to the main clusters when you win. And yes, that do sounds like challenge or the original epic idea with a few twists to prevent feuds.

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14 hours ago, spellcast said:

We separated PvP and Freedom for quite some time after Indy first opened...
 

Wild (chaos) had such a low population after a few years that it was all but impossible to even find another player to fight there.

So, they connected it to freedom... and now we are back to the same problem that caused rolf to add home server raiding and lead to the circumstances that created the freedom cluster in the first place...  PvP loot is being stored in complete safety on a PvE server

 

Not sure what (if any) the solution could be... just finding it interesting that we have once again come full circle... many of wurm's problems go this way... the solution to problem A causes problem B, and the solution to problem B ends up recreating problem A....

 

The Devs already have one possible solution and have had it for many years now... break the direct server border connection between Chaos and the Freedom Isles servers (that allows ship travel and therefore cargo transport) and only allow Players to Port to and from Chaos with a Portal just like Epic, except just let everyone KEEP their skills. This is already possible between GV tutorial server and the rest of the servers... if you gain skill on GV you don't lose it when you go on to your chosen server after GV. (On one character a while back I gained about 10 skill in healing and kept it when I got to Xanadu so I know for a fact this is the case.)

 

No more loot being taken to Freedom to safeguard it. No more temptation by those who lose the loot to beg and plead with Devs to turn PvP on in Freedom Servers just to get back virtual items that shouldn't have been allowed to cross servers in the first place. The special items that are meant to be unique to the PvP servers as I understand it where placed on the PvP servers to attract Players TO the PvP servers, so why are the Devs shooting themselves, us, and the game in the foot and letting these items go to the servers they are not intended for? Why add more "incentives" to attract Players to PvP servers if they are just going to be used for what they were not intended for or lose their attraction because anyone can get them?

 

Allow us to build portals that goes from/to Freedom Isles <> Chaos and let us keep our skills when we port. Restrict all items crossing over just like the Epic Portals do. Cut the server boundary connections. Try it for a year and see how it goes, treat as an experiment. If it doesn't work the Devs already know how to change it back.

 

The solution to this, one solution at least, does exist. Question is ... do the Devs and Staff have the will to choose this solution that can end this type of problem?

 

 

Edited by geode
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12 hours ago, Damascus said:

You say the real life value of items causes a lot of the problems in Wurm as this topic shows happened.

How many players would stop playing wurm if the only thing you could sale was players only  , no silver/gold or items for real coin ?

 

As for a pvp fix for payback , would it not be possible to have any items from Chaos taken to pve server not be transferable for so many days  , must be online ingame for timer to count down.

Also would it be possible to have players from chaos coming to pve servers go red  example , be it a mark or symble next to there name .

This would last as for length of time they been on chaos , giving players option to hunt them down on freedom servers for payback.

 

Hope you get the jest of it , Ultima Online had version of this and wore off over time..

Order vs chaos from Ultima online

 

It was great running into the middle of a safe town and seeing an orange guy (enemy) I think something like that could work if it's fine tuned for wurm. 

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I thank everyone for their input on the first piece of this thread and it is clear we require a separation between PvP and pve with the ability to portal with zero items. Removing sailing across the border and reopen the discussion about merging the PvP to one independent cluster.

 

A slight alternative I propose is to allow items to be taken from freedom to PvP (with the new anti theft rule in place at GM description on pve). To allow people to build up supplies, skills and to create an item sink to refresh the freedom markets.

 

However, I feel that we have discussed the same small fraction of what this thread is about.

 

We need to discuss what would create meaningful PvP that new and old players can work together on?

 

Several suggestions I shall put forward for scrutiny are: 

 

Increases the value of land owner ship by making it a direct link to trader returns on the kings pool. E.g. own 20% of the land your kingdom receives 20% of the coffers divided amongst the kingdoms traders.

 

The wl and bl should become a place to recharge champion points via this thread 

 

Including the DR changes mentioned in the thread.

 

New objective based location by it supply depots that give a small amount of valuable goods spread across the map. E.g. 2kg of glimmer, Addy etc spread across  10 very spread location.( For a total of .2 per depot) Encouraging people to try to control them. Refresh rates would need to be tested but a 24 - 36 hour window would be a good place to start.

 

I say each of these as a means to break up the maps of PvP with several different potential battle grounds and opportunities to create war deeds to contest each site at the players leisure.

 

Be it those who wish to control the wl and bl to strengthen their champions or recharge artifacts. Those who wish to claim a supply depot/s or simply those who wish to dominate hota.

 

This should be spread out to prevent a monopoly on all aspects as often happens with hota. Where the winning party continuing to get strong as they replace and improve their glimmer sets etc.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by JockII

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Edited by Matholameu

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Right now there's a huge imbalance of risk to reward. If you prem up a relatively new character and have them join a kingdom you risk almost nothing but the premium you put into the character. This is weighed against the valuables a potential infiltrator can gain. This imbalanced has to addressed somehow.

 

Rewards should be balanced by risk.

 

How could we rebalance risk and reward?

One solution would be to eliminate alts on pvp servers. You infiltrate with your main or you don't infiltrate at all.

 

Another would be to release very specific player information. This would have to be pretty specific (like down to at least their street block). This suggestion is a bit meh since it would force pvpers to accept a loss of privacy and (at least the street block option) would be easily faked if the person decided to drive an hour or two away. Other things like IP addresses can be faked by VPNs, though.

 

Can you guys think of anything else?

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11 hours ago, Hailene said:

Another would be to release very specific player information. This would have to be pretty specific (like down to at least their street block). This suggestion is a bit meh since it would force pvpers to accept a loss of privacy and (at least the street block option) would be easily faked if the person decided to drive an hour or two away. Other things like IP addresses can be faked by VPNs, though.

 

I actually think this would be a really good idea and would help build a much more trustworthy PVP community.  I've been negatively affected by accusations of spying in the past because of the actions of my brother.  He once used an alt to infiltrate a deed by posing as me, and when I started playing the game more actively nobody trusted me or even believed i was a real person.  If we had to provide reliable information to our mayors such as our real life addresses, email addresses, IP address, phone number, etc and had a mandatory voice interview in teamspeak or something, then the "spy problem" could be eliminated entirely.  I would've had a much more enjoyable experience getting into this game and think this suggestion would have a very positive affect on the community. 

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3 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

 

I actually think this would be a really good idea and would help build a much more trustworthy PVP community.  I've been negatively affected by accusations of spying in the past because of the actions of my brother.  He once used an alt to infiltrate a deed by posing as me, and when I started playing the game more actively nobody trusted me or even believed i was a real person.  If we had to provide reliable information to our mayors such as our real life addresses, email addresses, IP address, phone number, etc and had a mandatory voice interview in teamspeak or something, then the "spy problem" could be eliminated entirely.  I would've had a much more enjoyable experience getting into this game and think this suggestion would have a very positive affect on the community. 

 

i agree

 

i would be ok with people being able to examine my character and getting a link to my entire resume and stuff, including a copy of my social security card maybe even college transcripts

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7 minutes ago, JamesSnow said:

 

I actually think this would be a really good idea and would help build a much more trustworthy PVP community.  I've been negatively affected by accusations of spying in the past because of the actions of my brother.  He once used an alt to infiltrate a deed by posing as me, and when I started playing the game more actively nobody trusted me or even believed i was a real person.  If we had to provide reliable information to our mayors such as our real life addresses, email addresses, IP address, phone number, etc and had a mandatory voice interview in teamspeak or something, then the "spy problem" could be eliminated entirely.  I would've had a much more enjoyable experience getting into this game and think this suggestion would have a very positive affect on the community. 

 

why didn't anyone think of this earlier?

this is genius, it's gonna completely solve the toxic overload this game has being haunted by for years and years

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There is something called general respect and it sucks that people think since it's a sandbox all human morals go out the window.  Like it's an excuse to be a ###### person.  I think if you are a ###### person in the game then you are probably a ###### person in real life.

 

Hey lets go play a sandbox and F people over by earning their trust and ruining their game experience.  It's all good.  GM's shouldn't be involved, it's a sandbox.  Why the hell do people want to play a game where they feel helpless by getting screwed over and it's okay since it's a sandbox.

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If they closed off Chaos from the rest of Freedom then it will die.  I'd leave and go play Epic.  More land, mobs, things to do and it's own eco system not mixed with Freedom already.  And it's just a portal hop away.  Chaos is too small to be locked into it's own.  Log into this server in the morning and population is 6 people.

 

Freedomers are more willing to try Epic than Chaos because it's easier to get there with the portal also.

Edited by nicedreams

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The pvp aspect to wurm is the height of wurm expression as it allows the full spectrum of all the game mechanics and offerings of abilities and features.  Most of the time it is a far more rewarding experience then forums would have you think and so much more cooperation, trust, and team work than, ironically , the freedom servers non pvp.  I like pvp and pve for their differences equally.  

 

one note:  I can't help but think the loot value and ability to secure on freedom server for chaos vs epic cluster non secure way to bring to home server but still be hunted down is at the root of why you see more deeply cutting personal attacks, deeper hatred, and as a result, actions that go beyond the game mechanics intentions in getting that loot.  ie Cancer.

 

As a parlay of that supposition, I interpret Enki's latest missive to be about sorting normal pvp action to actions with intents and game play beyond the scope of mechanics and intentions.  In the past,  the "hard line" was did they do actions outside of game realm or did they subvert/thwart/hack game mechanics to achieve results.  That is something definitively understandable to game players and staff alike.  If I read into correctly,  It seems now added is the notion of intent like on pve server of play nice or rip your heart out notion that if actions are determined to have intent beyond game play rules/and intention that could also be subject to ban penalty.  That is a slippery slope which i think many players fear and will cause great confusion and uncertainty.  I believe we've now crossed into that arena in an attempt to stymie corrupt players if you will and behavior not fitting of the game..whatever that has come to mean.

 

I'm not sure I have this right, yet that is my read.  If I have it right, this is going to be very very hard on staff mostly to debate and conclude, and very very frustrating to players causing even further erosion of faith in the game and staff.  This looks like a bad direction to be heading into.

 

I have no solutions to offer yet will add that over the time I've played there have been ongoing instances across many kingdoms doing nefarious actions to steal avatars against others will and potentially illegally, as well as loot in this manner in a way most can see was beyond the call of intention, spirit, rules of the game.  we've seen people infiltrate deeds/alliances for sole purpose to do harm/sabotage/theft on pve side.  On pvp side there was less of that style until the last couple of years bewildering players.  collectively the vast majority of these extreme cases,player base and staff alike could agree offense was done beyond the call of the game and threatens the future of the game and players yet few can agree on the solutions.  

 

Seems also an attempt now is being made to prevent the climate existing like in the game EVE.  I've not played EVE, yet knew a a person in wurm pvp who did.  They took that mindset to wurm and also the actions.  To them,  an aspect of the game was to at any cost attack,infiltrate,take by means of ddosing ip's, outside game forums and voips manipulation, planting characters in enemy kingdoms with sole purpose to use them to gain access to valuable loot and sabotage deeds.   This also happened on freedom side as well.  That mentality is fully acceptable and expected in EVE as de rigueur.  I think it is that very thing wurm now struggles with how to isolate.  ultimately it is up to players, as to which type of game experience it is you want.  I know I've taken my hits and dislikes, and targeted by other actions to malign for standing up against mean spirited, intentionally abusive actions and players, as such made my stance of how i choose to play whether on pvp or pve server.

Edited by Bloodscythe
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Great read and some very valid points stated. Many of which I myself have raised. The line does require drawing but within the boundaries of the server they are implemented on.

 

I really hope this thread brings to light the effect that GM made rules can leave confusion, anger and loss of trust. Although, this singular event has been explored alot often over dramatically exaggerated. It does show has far it can go.

 

It does however seen to have overwhelmed the other aspects and points of this thread. Now I expect beyond the point to continue them in the hopes of being back meaningful pvp, long term objective and encouragement to work as a community for greater rewards. I may create another thread, a sister thread if you will.

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On 6/23/2017 at 10:01 AM, rixk said:

Please don't put PvP servers into the same category as PvE. In PvE players don't have tools to deal with situations like this, while in PvP they do.

This is only an argument if your ultimate goal is to kill your server.

 

By letting the players handle things in a PVP game with abusable mechanics, you will always end up with one group of players that hold a monopoly over everything. It shouldn't need to be said that for the health of the game, that is a terrible thing to happen.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Wurm PVP scene (and Wurm as a whole in a less impactful way) is marred by Old Boys' clubs more concerned with their own supremacy rather than the health of the game.

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53 minutes ago, Scribble said:

This is only an argument if your ultimate goal is to kill your server.

 

By letting the players handle things in a PVP game with abusable mechanics, you will always end up with one group of players that hold a monopoly over everything. It shouldn't need to be said that for the health of the game, that is a terrible thing to happen.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Wurm PVP scene (and Wurm as a whole in a less impactful way) is marred by Old Boys' clubs more concerned with their own supremacy rather than the health of the game.

Completly agree and this same group prevent it from taking the drastic change it needs.

 

We need objective based PvP such as supply depots spread across the map so nobody can have a monopoly just like some do with hota.

 

The wl and bl have to mean something again, champions are the way to do this. All they have become is a accessory to throw on when you need some Dr.

 

This leaves them feeling as if they are nothing more than a gimmick. A way to recharge their Dr and their points for casting should be added at the lights to restore value to them.

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2 hours ago, Scribble said:

This is only an argument if your ultimate goal is to kill your server.

 

By letting the players handle things in a PVP game with abusable mechanics, you will always end up with one group of players that hold a monopoly over everything. It shouldn't need to be said that for the health of the game, that is a terrible thing to happen.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Wurm PVP scene (and Wurm as a whole in a less impactful way) is marred by Old Boys' clubs more concerned with their own supremacy rather than the health of the game.

You take great risk of being misunderstood in these comments from those that may otherwise agree, then their will be those very ones to which you write towards that will regardless be offended or disagree.  If people can peel back their emotionality to it, I think you are right on the money in your perspective and direction you are suggesting to push things.  I wish I could see more of this dialogue sans tantrums and selfishness so that we arrive at the destination we all truly want in greater pvp experience despite fear and entrenchment.

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Every year it's something new that people come up with and it ends up being useless and/or abused within the next year. This is just another rinse/repeat.

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